The Trinity

[pehkay]

I guess it is too much for one post. Here goes...

God is uniquely one yet three

First Corinthians 8:4: "There is no God but one."

Isaiah 45:5: "I am Jehovah and there is no one else;/Besides Me there is no God." In verses 6, 21, and 22; 46:9; and 44:6, 8, we also find the same words.

Psalm 86:10: "Thou art God alone."

Although there is only one God, the Bible also reveals that this one God is plural, that He has the aspect of three. Genesis 1:1 says that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The Hebrew word for God in this verse is Elohim, which is plural in number.

Genesis 1:26 records that God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.” The words us and our show that the one God has a plural aspect. In Isaiah 6:8 God said, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” In this verse I is us, and us is I. These verses shows us that God is not merely singular or merely plural. The God revealed in the Bible is “uni-plural.”

In Matthew 28:19 the Lord Jesus charged the disciples to baptize people into the name (singular) of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. C. I. Scofield says in a note to this verse in his reference Bible: “The word is in the singular, the `name,’ not names. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is the final name of the one true God.”

The Eternal Coexistence and Coinherence of the Divine Trinity

Isaiah 9:6 says, "Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given...and his name shall be called...Mighty God, Everlasting Father." In this verse, the "Mighty God" matches the "child," and "Everlasting Father" matches the "son." Yes, He is a child, yet He is the Mighty God. The child who was born in the manger in Bethlehem was the Mighty God.

John 14:7-11 says, "If ye had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake." In these verses the Lord clearly reveals to us the mystery that He and the Father are one; He is in the Father and the Father is in Him; when He speaks, it is the Father who works; when men see Him, they see the Father; when they know Him, they know the Father, because He is the Father; He "and the Father are one" (John 10:30).

Second Corinthians 3:17 says, "The Lord is the Spirit." The "Lord" spoken of here, of course, is the Lord Jesus; and "the Spirit," of course, is the Holy Spirit.

The Father is God. Eph 1:17, 4:6, 1 Cor 1:3
Son is God. Heb 1:8, Romans 9:5, John 1:1,14
Spirit is God. In Acts 5 Peter told Ananias that he had lied to the Holy Spirit (v. 3). Then he said, “You have not lied to men but to
God” (v. 4).

I guess there is just too many references to list here. Hope it helps.

The Father Is Eternal. Isa. 9:6;
The Son Is Eternal. Heb. 7:3;
The Spirit Is Eternal. Heb. 9:14

All Three of the Trinity are eternal. The Father, Son, and Spirit do not exist in three temporary, successive modes or stages. According to Isaiah 9:6, the Father is the eternal Father. Additionally, the Son, as the real Melchisedec in Hebrews 7:3, has “neither beginning of days nor end of life.” He is our High Priest perpetually. He is forever the same, and His years will not fail (Heb. 1:12). Finally, it was through the eternal Spirit that Christ offered Himself on the cross without blemish to God (Heb. 9:14).

The Father, the Son, and the Spirit Coexist and Coinhere. John 14:26; 15:26

That the Three of the Godhead are eternal implies that They coexist from eternity past through eternity future. Many verses demonstrate the coexistence among the Three of the Triune God. In one of the most graphic, Matthew’s account of Christ’s baptism, as Jesus the Son went up from the water, the Spirit of God descended upon Him as a dove and the Father testified from the heavens of His beloved Son (3:16-17). This scene clearly portrays the simultaneous existence of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. Further, in John 14:16-17 the Son promised to ask the Father to send the Spirit of reality as the second Comforter; the Father answered the Son’s prayer by sending the Spirit (John 14:26).


The Father and the Son Are Inseparable. John 14:10-11; 8:29; 16:32

Though the Three are distinct in their eternal coexistence, They are by no means three separate Gods. Rather, They coinhere mutually and inseparably; that is, They indwell one another. Throughout the Gospels, the Lord Jesus took many opportunities to reveal to the disciples His mysterious coinherent relationship with the Father. For example, in John 14:11, the Lord responded to Philip’s desire to see the Father by assuring him of Their intrinsic oneness: “Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me.” Thus the Son, while physically on the earth, mystically dwelt in the Father and the Father in the Son. In addition, the Lord declared in John 6:46, “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except Him who is from God, He has seen the Father.” The Greek preposition para, translated “from” in this verse, literally means “from with.” Hence, the Son sent from God was simultaneously sent with God. The Lord testified of this intimate inseparability: “He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone” (John 8:29).

I finish this post with this:

In order to know the truth concerning the Triune God in a full, complete, and balanced way. We need to see principle of the twofoldness of divine truth. Robert Govett in his booklet, "The Twofoldness of Divine Truth", says

The twofoldness of truth as offered to our view in Holy Writ is one strong argument of its not being the work of man. It is the glory of man’s intellect to produce oneness. His aim is to trace different results to one principle, to clear it of ambiguities, to show how, through varied appearances, one law holds. Anything that stands in the way of the completeness of this, he eludes or denies.

“But,” as Govett continues, “it is not so with God. In nature He is continually acting with two seemingly opposed principles”. Therefore, Govett says, “It is not then to be wondered at, if two seemingly opposed principles are found placed side by side in the Scripture. ‘Unity in plurality, plurality in unity’ is the main principle on which both the world and the Scripture are constructed”.

Recognizing that the truth concerning the Triune God is twofold is a requirement for knowing God in His trinity. This twofoldness of the truth is embodied in the word triune, a Latin word composed of tri-, meaning three, and -une, meaning one. To say that God is triune is to testify that He is three-one. He is uniquely one, yet He is distinctly and inseparably three. In the Godhead the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are distinct but inseparable. In God’s being one there is no separation among the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, and in God’s being three there is a distinction among the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. The three of the Trinity cannot be separated, yet there is a distinction among them. This is the twofoldness of the truth concerning the Triune God.

 

[Simonline]

There are other Scriptures that show Yahweh, Christ, and the Holy Spirit in unity. They try to use those also to prove the trinitarian false doctrine.

The doctrine of the Trinity is not false. It is the encapsulation of ALLONE that the Judeo-Christian Scriptures teach concerning the Divinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as the ONE Trinitarian God (Isa.43:10-13).

This does not say they are equal, co-eternal or one single God:

Matthew 28:19 "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," It simply shows they are in unity with each other.

If the Bible explicitly, unequivocally and repeatedly declares that there is only ONE God and also explicitly and unequiuvocally declares the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit to be Divine, then how can you say that the ONE God is not Trinitarian in Nature?!

If Jesus were Yahweh, he would not need a mediator between mankind and Himself:

The Messiah IS YHWH incarnate as a human being and as such, the Messiah (who is both Divine and Human) is the only mediator between Divinity and Humanity...God and Man, precisely because He alone is both Divine and Human.

The Father and the Spirit cannot be the mediator because they are only Divine and Mary the mother of the Messiah cannot be the mediator because she is only human. A mediator by definition must be able to represent BOTH parties and not just ONE of the parties. The Messiah alone, being both Divine and Human, can do just that.

1 Timothy 2:5, 6 "For there is one God and one mediator between God and man, [the] man, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself—a ransom for all, a testimony at the proper time."

Can he NOT be greater than himself if he is God? It is contradictive and a lie to believe such nonsense:

It is not nonsense. It is theological shorthand, there's a difference. Ask yourself, why is there only ONE mediator between God and Man?! Why can't Mary or any of the other saints (especially those who were martyred for their faith) also be a 'mediator' between God and Man (as the Roman Church advocates)?! Could it possibly be something to do with the fact that the Messiah is not just a 'regular' human being but is also Divine...YHWH incarnate (Rom.9:5; Heb.1:8-12) something not true of either Mary or any of the other saints, irrespective of whether they were martyred or not?!

John 14:28 "You have heard Me tell you, 'I am going away and I am coming to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I."

Even in Heaven Christ is subject to his Father:

Well, of course He is?! That's because the Messiah is a finite human creature as well as the infinite Divine Creator! [I do wish that people would stop reading the Scriptures in such a superficial, lazy manner. The difference between a heretic and a Christian is that whilst heretics learn what the Bible says Christians are taught to learn what the Bible also says!] The other side of this 'coin' is Jn.10:30-33 where the Messiah emphasises His Divinity over his humanity and the unbelieving Jews pick up stones to try and stone the Messiah to death as a result. Unlike the 'Christian' heretics who willfully deny the truth, the Jewish unbelievers affirmed the truth (that the Messiah claimed, not just to be 'the Son of God' (as if he was somehow an entirely separate 'being' from God in Heaven) but actually claimed to be God incarnate as a human being) by their reaction?!

Matthew 20:23 "He told them, "You will indeed drink My cup. [But to sit at My right and left is not Mine to give; instead, it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by My Father." If Christ was Yahweh, he would have said, "It is mine to give, because all belongs to me because I'm the Creator." But he never says that.

That's because YHWH is tri-Personal (i.e. Father, Son and Holy Spirit) and not mono-personal like all humans.

The Messiah, as the 'Son' and an finite human Creature, did not have the authority to countermand the Tri-Personal YHWH as Divine (Being Trinitarian in Nature, there's more to YHWH than just the Son you know?!).
Instead:

John 13:16 " I assure you: A slave is not greater than his master, and a messenger is not greater than the one who sent him." He was saying he is not greater than his Father.

And as YHWH incarnate as a finite human creature, that is absolutely correct, but you cannot ignore the fact that the Messiah is YHWH incarnate and not just a 'regular' human creature (which is what you are arguing and why, therefore, you are a heretic)?!

John 8:42 " Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, because I came from God and I am here. For I didn't come on My own, but He sent Me." He didn't come on his own - Yahweh sent him.

No, The Messiah is not saying that YHWH sent Him but that the Father sent Him (this is because both the Father and the Son (and the Holy Spirit) are all YHWH. The Scriptures are using theological shorthand here. We know this because the Scriptures do not explicitly say that only the Father is God, whilst the Son and the Holy Spirit are not God. Only if the Scriptures were to explicitly state that the Father alone is God would your arguments be valid. As it is, the Scriptures declare that there is only ONE God and the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all that ONE God. Therefore God is Trinitarian in Nature and your arguments are invalid.

If he was Yahweh, he would have come on his own, because he could not send himself.

Again, this assumes that YHWH is Unitarian rather than Trinitarian?! If God is Trinitarian then it is quite possible that one of the Three Persons could have been sent by another of the Three Persons without the one being sent ceasing to be YHWH in the process?!


It would be a unilateral decision of his own, because he would have been GOD. But instead, he is the Son - the Word, and was sent on a mission to save all of those of mankind that put faith in his Sacrifice.

Unless the Word/Son of God is also God (as John states (Jn.1:1) then there could be no salvation for anyone, least of all the messenger?!


Yahweh, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are in UNITY only. They are not one single being.

Then what you're saying is that God is a liar (Num.23:19; 2Tim.3:16; Isa.43:10-13; Rom.9:5; Heb.1:8-12)?!

He pointed that out at:

John 10:30 "The Father and I are one."

And Jn.10:31-33 show that the unbelieving Jews understood that the Messiah was caliming to be YHWH incarnate as a human being by their reaction to His words in picking up stones to try and stone Him. There is also no reference to the Messiah remonstrating with the unbelieving Jews for having misunderstood him in his claims to be YHWH incarnate as a human being. The Messiah never says "No! You've misunderstood me! I didn't mean that I was YHWH incarnate as a human being...."?! If Trinitarianism is heresy as you assert then how do you explain this glaring ommission?

And at John 17:20-22 he further explained: "I pray not only for these, but also for those who believe in Me through their message. May they all be one, as You, Father, are in Me and I am in You. May they also be one in us, so the world may believe You sent Me. I have given them the glory You have given Me. May they be one as We are one." According to the Trinitarians, that would mean we are also GOD, because Christ plainly stated above: "May they all be one,
as You, Father, are in Me and I am in You. May they also be one in Us,"

"I have given them the glory You have given Me." Being a SHARER in that given glory does not make us Christ, anymore than the Trinitarians can make Christ Yahweh.


No, because YHWH is both one in Nature as well as one in Unity. The Messiah prayed that the disciples would be one in Unity with God, not One in Nature with God (Jn.20:17) as He knew that it was absolutely impossible for both Divine and Human Nature to be united as one (which is why the Messiah has two natures, even as one Person).

Simonline.

 

[stumpjumper]

MOD HAT ON

Thread reopened. This forum is in the Nicene-Christian Only Theology section and, as such, trinitarian Christianity is a foundational belief. You may not argue against the trinity in this section. You may ask questions, discuss, and further understanding, however.

Thank you.

ETA: Link to Nicene Creed in forum rules which is the criteria for posting in the CO section and is listed in section 1: http://www.christianforums.com/rules

 

[davidoffinland]

From Finland

Dear Mr Moderator...I must be semi-blind this morning, but can you provide a access link to your #42 post. I tried to look at the Nicene-Christian link but can´t find it. Thank you.
Shalom, david

 

[thereselittleflower]

God is not three divine beings in one.
There is a Godhead, consisting of 3 physically separate beings (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) but of the same purpose, all equally divine.

This is a grieveous error, for it promotes Polytheism . . multiple God-beings.

This is a gross error in regards to the Trinity.

God is ONE Being, THREE Persons.

God is spirit . . God is not physical.



Peace

 

[thereselittleflower]

Hear o Israel, the L-rd thy G-d is One.

I see the 3 as Facets of G-d. For example: one diamond, but you turn it to different angles and it looks a little different... but it's still the same 1 diamond.

Yet this takes us into modalism, an ancient error regarding the Trinity. . . . God does not switch modes, or facets . .

God is 3 Persons, 1 Being.


Peace

 

[lmnop9876]

No illustration of the truth of the Trinity can be sufficient, but perhaps if we understand it as being like a person looking in a perfect mirror. the Person looking in the Mirror is God the Father, the Image and Reflection in the Mirror is God the Son, and the Light that comes from the Father and shows us Him and the Son is the Holy Spirit.
imperfect, like any illustration of a divine truth, but it can help to understand it better.

 

[Athaliamum]

I view the trinity along the lines of:
I'm a wife; I'm a mother; I'm a daughter - yet I am the one being not three seperate beings for three seperate duties. I can be any of these at one time or I could be all of them at the same time. If I can do this as a mere human, it makes perfect sense that an unlimitless God could do it too, even to the point of physically dividing himself to do all those duties at once.

 

[minasoliman]

I'm sorry if there's no other way to say this, but this just plain heresy.

It is best to say that God is God; it is not easy to contemplate on the Trinity. We all know the Trinity in the words of the Nicene Creed. Three distinct PERSONS, one God. He is not a Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as if it was three jobs, like a mother, daughter, and wife. Absolutely not. At the same time, He is certainly not three gods. Doesn't make sense? Well, since when does it make sense that God is infinite in the first place? Can you mind contemplate the infinite?

God bless.

Mina

 

[Athaliamum]

He is not a Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as if it was three jobs, like a mother, daughter, and wife.

How do you know? Did he give you revelation that he has given to know one else? It could very well be that way because the scriptures haven't devulged these secrets to us in a way the human mind can understand.

The scriptures do tell us however that the Messiah would have God's own name, YUD-HEH-VAV-HEH, applied to him. (Isaiah 9:6-7; Jeremiah 23:5-6; Romans 10:9; Philippians 2:9-11) If he has the name other the Yeshua applied to him and has been called by both then which of these three persons is he unless they are the one and same just fulfilling different roles at a certain time?

As for this heresy you talk about - it's some mind game used by institutions to scare people not to think about or ask questions that those in power can not answer. God is big enough for questions and searchings. Asking these questions is not a denile of the Holy spirit which is the only unforgiveable sin and nor is this thiking. The Lord your God is one and breaking him up into seperate beings rather then seperate job descriptions is far more blasphemous.

 

[minasoliman]

It's heresy because the Bible gives us this revelation, and Christ also teaches thus.

And you attacking institutions is nothing but a cop-out. "Institutions" is a ploy to scare you from believing the truth. In the book of Acts, Apostles had to assemble together to question the belief of circumcising and Judaizing converts into Christianity. This was condemned as heresy. See the "institution" that the Apostles made? And this wasn't just some blind institution, but one that which was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Many people in ancient Christianity got together to question many heretics' beliefs that which contradicted Christ's teachings and the Apostolic teachings. To deviate from such is to make yourself a heretic. Seek the truth, don't seek what you want to believe.

Thus, this is where the Nicene Creed comes from. It is what this website lives by, and that if you don't uphold, you cannot even call yourself a Christian.

I've posted about it before:

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=24386907&postcount=32

I'm sorry if this puts you at an illwill with me, or others who say this to you, but the fact of the matter is that you have to face up with Biblical and historical truths. Indeed, inspiration comes to me day by day as I pray to God, and as He truly confirms me in the faith, to which I struggle also day by day.

And besides the Bible, even ancient Christian history shows that a Trinitarian belief was the norm. So the question goes back to you: HOW DO YOU KNOW that what you're believing is the Truth, rather than what you WANT to believe?

And I'm not saying asking questions is wrong, but when you don't know the answer, don't assume an answer.

God bless.

Mina

 

[thereselittleflower]

I view the trinity along the lines of:
I'm a wife; I'm a mother; I'm a daughter - yet I am the one being not three seperate beings for three seperate duties. I can be any of these at one time or I could be all of them at the same time. If I can do this as a mere human, it makes perfect sense that an unlimitless God could do it too, even to the point of physically dividing himself to do all those duties at once.

This can lead to a type of modalism, an ancient heresy of the Early Church.

God is not 3 roles or 3 modes ..

He is THREE PERSONS.

I understand what you are trying to say, however, if one goes too far down that path, one ends up with clear modalism. . .

All examples we can try to create to help us understand the Trinity fall way short . . .and if taken too far, each take us into error.

There is no example we can come up with that does not fall prey to this problem . . .


Peace

 

[Athaliamum]

It's heresy because the Bible gives us this revelation, and Christ also teaches thus.

What, where? Give me some scriture to back your statements up. I've not read once the word heresy!

This can lead to a type of modalism, an ancient heresy of the Early Church.

I did not get even close to going down the lines of modalism. Modalism's basis is that God is three persons who never exist at the one time. I never said that only one could exisit at any one time. In fact I said it was completely understandble that a limitless God could do this all at the one time. No where in the Old testament is the idea of God being three even touched on - God is one. Not one of the prophets even touched on the idea of God being more then one in personailty in fact he is unchanging.

Thus, this is where the Nicene Creed comes from. It is what this website lives by, and that if you don't uphold, you cannot even call yourself a Christian

First of all I'll ask that you don't even attempt to determine whether or not my name will be written in the book of life. It's not your place but God's - anything other is "heresy"!

As for the Nicaea creed - it wasn't developed until 381BC and it was only then that the Holy Spirit was added to any such creed and when it comes down to it I base my faith on scripture not on some council's findings. Yes this site does use the Nicaea creed but I didn't see anywhere where it said I had to subscribe to one particular denominations belief system with regards to the trinity.

The scriptures indicate that Jesus and God and Holy spirit are one, it in many ways does not teach them as different persons. In fact many of the NT scriptures are direct pointers to the fact that Jesus was a human with the esessence of God's spirit or God's spirit in human form, not a human personality that forms part of God.

I'm sorry if this puts you at an illwill with me, or others who say this to you, but the fact of the matter is that you have to face up with Biblical and historical truths........And besides the Bible, even ancient Christian history shows that a Trinitarian belief was the norm.

Whose biblical and historical truths? A western worlds understanding about originally non-western faith. The fact is that your description of trinity follows Hellenistic thought.

Christian history? That only started after the death of Jesus. What about all the history and understanding about Jesus before he came to Earth. His being revealed in the Old Testment 1000's of years before he came. The strength and story of Jesus is just as strong in the old testament as it is in the new - you just got to know what your looking at - and in no way is he seperated from God.

HOW DO YOU KNOW that what you're believing is the Truth, rather than what you WANT to believe?

I could ask the same question of you.

He is THREE PERSONS

So your understanding - God is three personalities in three forms to make one God. Therefore 3x3=1
My understanding - God has one spirit/personality but has seperated it into three forms. Therefore 1X1X1=1
Okay it seems like we are at an impass so let's try something different - let's use scripture to back up our opinions.

Jeremiah 23:5-6
"The days are coming" says ADONAI
when I will raise a righteous Branch of David.
He will reign as king and succeed,
he will do what is just and right in the land.
In his days Y'hudah will be saved.
Isra'el will live in safety,
and the name given to him will be
ADONAI Tzidkenu (ADONAI our righteousness)

This scripture is a messianic prophecy. It says that Jesus will be called ADONAI which is the name given by the Jews to YHWH. So basically the messiah is YHWH. If Jesus is his own personality and own identity then how come he is given the name of the father YHWH also unless they are not seperate?

Philippians 2:9,10
Therefore God raised him to the highest being,
he gave him the name above every name;
that in honor of the name given Yeshua,
every knee will bow -
in heaven, on earth and under the earth -

If the name of the personailty Yeshua is higher then any other name does this also include the name of the father YHWH?

 

[minasoliman]

I just gave you a post that lead you to links. Did you not read it?

Should I quote them for you?

When St. John the Forerunner and Baptist baptized Jesus Christ, the Son of God, as St. Peter confessed, the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove descended and rested on His humanity, and a voice from heaven was heard saying "This is my beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased."

St. John the divine writes in one of his epistles that there are THREE that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, just as there are THREE that bear witness in earth, Water, Blood, and Spirit. Even St. John showed distinctness. In the beginning of his gospel, he taught "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word WAS WITH God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning WITH Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made."

In John 17, Christ is shown praying to the Father. It is blasphemy to say Christ prayed to Himself, or prayed to His divine nature. You are therefore splitting Christ, making Him a man and a God in two peersons. Christ, who is fully man and fully God, the Word of God incarnate, prayed to the Father as a human being on behalf of all humans.

The Scriptures are very clear that there are distinct persons in the Trinity. To say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are mere names was never believed, not even by the Apostles of Christ, not even Christ Himself believed.

The challenge to you is to pray to do the sign of the Cross, hold the Cross closely to your heart, and those voices in your head will tremble in powerlessness. And true voice, the voice of the Holy Spirit, will enlighten you just as He has enlightened prophets before.

May the blessings of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit be with you, now and forever and unto the ages of ages. Amen!

"yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live." (1 Cor. 8:6)

It is of the Father all things are made and through the Son all things are made. St. Paul confesses the distinctness of two persons of the Trinity.

"Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one." (Gal. 3:20)

How does God have a mediator, unless the one God is a Triune God?

In Ephesians Chapter 6, it talks about the Father, the fountainhead, the Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, Who grants us spiritual gifts and enlightenment, and the Holy Spirit of God, Who seals us for redemption in Holy Chrismation and grieves at our sinful passions. The distinctness of all three persons is evident in this chapter.

"For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus." (1 Tim. 2:5)

How can the One God have a Mediator unless the Mediator is another person of the Triune God? For St. Paul to say that God is a mediator between Himself and men shows that there is really no "Mediator" after all, if Jesus is the incarnation of the Father. To be consistent with Scriptural language, the One God is in three persons, the Son of God being a Mediator for us to God the Father.

The Trinity does not contradict the oneness of God. For God is truly one. But God is also confessed as the Trinity. We worship and pray to the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. It was not a Nicene innovation, for that would be ignorance in the face of pre-Nicene research.

In Genesis, it is written "Let US make man in OUR Image." Who made man? God did. But why did God call Himself "Us?" Because He is triune.

God bless.

Mina

Dear Harry,

Whether or not God made man before Adam and Eve is not the question at hand. I am arguing on the fact that God still made man in His image, and He addressed to Himself in the plural sense. Clearly, the One Who makes is Maker, Creator, and not creature. And since it is in a plural sense, it is the Trinity Who made, Who created man. He caused man to be created from the dust of the Earth and from the likeness of God.

Christ is the Everlasting Father in the sense of giving us the new birth. He is the first fruits, and we become seeds of Christ, instead of seeds of corrupt man. However, He is not God the Father. He has always prayed to God the Father as man. Consider these verses from Isaiah:

"And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all...For the transgressions of My people He was stricken....Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin..." (Isaiah 53:6, 8, 10)

This clearly shows the distinction of two persons of the Trinity. God the Father offers His only begotten Son for the sake of the transgessors, and bears their transgressions. Even Christ makes note of this in a parable to the Pharisees about the wicked vinedressers who killed the Landowner's only Son, showing that He is distinct from the Father even though both are one God.

The verse "The Father is greater than I" is not a symbolic verse that shows the spirit is greater than the flesh. Surely, you are simply separating Christ into two persons for doing that. For Christ is the Son of God incarnate, and His humanity made Him lower than the Father, but as a property of His divinity, He is equal and one with the Father. Because He is the Son of God, He can call Him Father, and He gives us the Holy Spirit that we may also receive sonship with Him to call Him Abba Father.

The gospels are filled with clear signs of the distinctness of the persons of the Trinity. God is not one person, but three persons in one God. Please, dear brother, make the sign of the Cross and ask God send His Holy Spirit to enlighten you, to take away the false voices in you.

All you provide is a quote that Christ received a "name" that is above all names. Well, can God receive His own name? How can God raise His Son, unless you're saying He's raising His own self? But then, it is YOU who's changing the language of the Bible. Use some logic. You obviously are reading the Bible. What exactly is Christ doing praying to the Father at the Garden of Gethsamene? He wasn't a schizo praying to Himself.

Indeed Christ is YHWH, but that doesn't disprove the Trinity. Christ in His humanity was anointed with a name that is above all. The name "Jesus" was given equivalence to God because Christ is God, and was God before all ages.

Christ Himself taught the Trinity:

"I am the true Vine and my Father is the Vinedresser." Tell me now, is the Vine the Vinedresser, or the Vinedresser the Vine. Nope, both are distinct persons, yet ONE GOD. You and I don't understand how, but since when did an INFINITE God make sense? You can't contemplate on God. You can come up with analogies to help our limited minds, but don't limit God to your own understanding.

And for you to disregard the Creed disregards the Bible. Notice, how christianforums.com gives Bible verses to every part of the Creed. It only reiterates what the Bible teaches. Thus, what happened in 381 AD was an inspiration by the Holy Spirit just as what happened in the Council of Jerusalem in the book of Acts.

God bless.

Mina

 

[catwoman2]

Asking people to explain the Triune God is like asking an amoeba to explain the intricate workings of the far reaching solar system.

 

[Athaliamum]

That is true catwoman2. The debate here is:

Is God three personailities in three forms to create one God or is God one personailty seperated into three forms to be one God?

I have not changed my mind or heart on this matter and your posts of scripture could be used either way Mina.

He wasn't a schizo praying to Himself.

Why would you say this? Is it some cheap attempt at scoring points being right? What if you are wrong - you've just called God a schizo. Sometimes it is better to remain quiet and be right then to say something like that and be wrong.

Indeed Christ is YHWH, but that doesn't disprove the Trinity.

Where did I say this disproved the Trinity? I said that God had three forms at once, I just don't agree he has three seperate personailities. That's still a trinity, just not your idea of trinity. Don't say I said something I didn't!

Use some logic. You obviously are reading the Bible.

Yes I do read my bible and I am a very logical person, just because I don't agree with you doesn't make me not a christian and devoid of logic. This is a very arrogant attitude! I didn't realise it was your opinion by which I should measure my reasoning and I most definetly didn't think that you had authority to claim who is christian or not.

And for you to disregard the Creed disregards the Bible.

I did not disregard the creed's contents. I disregarded your ability to judge me based upon it. I said I live by scripture not by some man's creed. If parts of the creed are backed up by scripture, great, then there's no argument. But this doesn't mean you have the right to judge my faith.

The only method of findinig truth we have then is asking God which one it is and getting answered through conviction of the Holy Spirit. Now I know you say you have been convicted that your view is right - what if I said I had also be convicted that my view was right too. Are you going to post that that can't be the case because you have been convicted otherwise. That is getting dangerous!

If we have both be convicted of our seperate views on trinity by the Holy Spirit then there is no argument! In the end this type of theology is not an "essiential". We both believe in God, we both believe that Father, Jesus and Holy spirit are one God, which fashion in theology of how this is, doesn't effect our salvation that's based on faith not knowledge.

 

[lmnop9876]

Quote:
It's heresy because the Bible gives us this revelation, and Christ also teaches thus.
What, where? Give me some scriture to back your statements up. I've not read once the word heresy!

Quote:
This can lead to a type of modalism, an ancient heresy of the Early Church.
I did not get even close to going down the lines of modalism. Modalism's basis is that God is three persons who never exist at the one time. I never said that only one could exisit at any one time. In fact I said it was completely understandble that a limitless God could do this all at the one time. No where in the Old testament is the idea of God being three even touched on - God is one. Not one of the prophets even touched on the idea of God being more then one in personailty in fact he is unchanging.

Quote:
Thus, this is where the Nicene Creed comes from. It is what this website lives by, and that if you don't uphold, you cannot even call yourself a Christian
First of all I'll ask that you don't even attempt to determine whether or not my name will be written in the book of life. It's not your place but God's - anything other is "heresy"!

As for the Nicaea creed - it wasn't developed until 381BC and it was only then that the Holy Spirit was added to any such creed and when it comes down to it I base my faith on scripture not on some council's findings. Yes this site does use the Nicaea creed but I didn't see anywhere where it said I had to subscribe to one particular denominations belief system with regards to the trinity.

The scriptures indicate that Jesus and God and Holy spirit are one, it in many ways does not teach them as different persons. In fact many of the NT scriptures are direct pointers to the fact that Jesus was a human with the esessence of God's spirit or God's spirit in human form, not a human personality that forms part of God.

Quote:
I'm sorry if this puts you at an illwill with me, or others who say this to you, but the fact of the matter is that you have to face up with Biblical and historical truths........And besides the Bible, even ancient Christian history shows that a Trinitarian belief was the norm.
Whose biblical and historical truths? A western worlds understanding about originally non-western faith. The fact is that your description of trinity follows Hellenistic thought.

Christian history? That only started after the death of Jesus. What about all the history and understanding about Jesus before he came to Earth. His being revealed in the Old Testment 1000's of years before he came. The strength and story of Jesus is just as strong in the old testament as it is in the new - you just got to know what your looking at - and in no way is he seperated from God.

Quote:
HOW DO YOU KNOW that what you're believing is the Truth, rather than what you WANT to believe?
I could ask the same question of you.

Quote:
He is THREE PERSONS
So your understanding - God is three personalities in three forms to make one God. Therefore 3x3=1
My understanding - God has one spirit/personality but has seperated it into three forms. Therefore 1X1X1=1
Okay it seems like we are at an impass so let's try something different - let's use scripture to back up our opinions.

Jeremiah 23:5-6
"The days are coming" says ADONAI
when I will raise a righteous Branch of David.
He will reign as king and succeed,
he will do what is just and right in the land.
In his days Y'hudah will be saved.
Isra'el will live in safety,
and the name given to him will be
ADONAI Tzidkenu (ADONAI our righteousness)

This scripture is a messianic prophecy. It says that Jesus will be called ADONAI which is the name given by the Jews to YHWH. So basically the messiah is YHWH. If Jesus is his own personality and own identity then how come he is given the name of the father YHWH also unless they are not seperate?

Philippians 2:9,10
Therefore God raised him to the highest being,
he gave him the name above every name;
that in honor of the name given Yeshua,
every knee will bow -
in heaven, on earth and under the earth -

If the name of the personailty Yeshua is higher then any other name does this also include the name of the father YHWH?

It is important to remember, no matter how we understand the Trinity, that God is One. He is one eternal Spirit.
Yes, God is also Three. not Three Beings, but Three Persons, none existing outside of the other, all of the one Substance. Jesus Christ is the eternal Word of God become flesh, His eternal Wisdom; and the Holy Spirit is the eternal breath of God, His life-giving power, through Whom we have life. The Father, the Word, and the Spirit are all truly personal and all exist equally from eternity, but are not separate, but are all one Being, GOD.

 

[Athaliamum]

Colossians 2:9
For in him, bodily, lives the fullness of all that God is"

How can the fullness of God live in Jesus if they are seperate persons?

 

[minasoliman]

Okay, forgive me for being frustrated. It's just that after six pages, and people still don't get it. But I have to disagree with you on a few points you made:

Yes it does affect salvation. Tell me now, if a Jehovah's witness and I agree that Christ is the Son of God, does that make a Jehovah's witness Christian? Or if a Mormon says that the Trinity are three in One, does that make them Christian?

All of Christianity, Protestantism, Catholicism, and Orthodoxy, stands on a pillar that God MUST be three persons in One God. If you don't believe thus, then you are NOT a Christian. Yes, I can judge your faith. We are called to do so, to root out heresies. And to firmly uphold your heresy knowing that you stand out from 100% of all Christians makes you a heretic. You judge yourself a heretic, I don't judge you at all. I only judge your faith a heresy because of what you believe. It's like judging the sin and not the sinner. Now, of one advocates a sin, I can't just stand there and nod my head.

And by the way, it's not some of the Creed that's backed up Biblically, but ALL of the creed.

http://www.christianforums.com/faq.php?faq=rules#faq_rule_1

So you are indeed judged by it.

And no, I'm not scoring points at anything. I'm trying to challenge your mind. I'm trying to get you to think. What was Christ doing praying to the Father? Praying to Himself? Cause that is the logical conclusion of your belief.

So, yes, this requires logic, not the logic to prove God a Trinity, but the logic of what the language of the Bible offers. I affirm that logic alone cannot define God, but the Bible logically teaches three persons in One God. Unseparated, yet distinct.

And there's nothing more dangerous than upholding wrong anti-Christian dogma.

Let me make it a little bit more clear. The Father is FULLY God, the Son is FULLY God, and the Holy Spirit is FULLY God. The Father is NOT the Son (and vice versa) , the Son is NOT the Holy Spirit (and vice versa), and the Father is NOT the Holy Spirit (and vice versa). Due to a lack of a better term, the word "person" is used for each of them. In Greek, the word "hypostasis" is used, which is actually a better term.

So, in Col. 2:9, we know that Christ is FULLY man and FULLY God. Thus, indeed the FULLY Godhead dwelt in Him. However, Christ is neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit, but all three "persons" are ONE God. How does that make any sense? Well, I'll quote catwoman:

Asking people to explain the Triune God is like asking an amoeba to explain the intricate workings of the far reaching solar system.

We can never understand God's ways, but this is how God reveals Himself to us, and thus we MUST accept in faith and experience.

God bless.

Mina

 

[catwoman2]

Is God three personailities in three forms to create one God or is God one personailty seperated into three forms to be one God?

God is changeless and so neither one is true. The Trinity has always been.