The Trinity - Help Me Understand

[Whitworth]

First and foremost, I apologise if this is not in the correct section. I'm fairly new here and was confused as to where this topic would be best placed. That being said, if a moderator would feel it is better suited in another sub-forum, please feel welcome to move this thread.

TLDR: I have put the most important part/question of this thread in BOLD. So if you don't want to read the wall of text and want to get straight to the point/question please just read the BOLD text.

Hi all.

OK, I don't want to make this thread a HUGE wall of text, while I have no doubt it will be fairly long regardless, I will try and keep things as brief as possible.

So I used to be confident to call myself a Christian. I grew up never not believing but my family weren't religious so I didn't grow up having religion forced upon me. I remember being about 7 or 8 and hearing Christian music (Hillsong) for the first time and just crying, I don't know why it just overwhelmed my soul.

In school assemblies the local vicar used to come in and give talks. Every time he spoke about the Bible and Jesus it just made sense I never even questioned it.

When I became a teenager I got involved with a local Christian youth group and became a Christian. It all just made sense, I can't say the concept of God was ever doubted, even to this day I have always believed in God and could never be considered an atheist or even agnostic.

Anyway, I got baptised and everything went well for a few years I was heavily involved with the church and what not, then I began to majorly backslide. Sex, drugs, rock and roll, that kind of lifestyle you could say.

I stopped reading the Bible and living a Christian lifestyle. I NEVER stopped believing I just used to kid myself and cherry pick what I believed because I KNEW I was living against God's word.

Anyway fast forward I'm 26 now last year I started looking at religion again and reading the Bible and taking things more seriously. Cut a long story short I ended up exploring Islam and so much made sense to me.

Reading the Bible it was clear to me a few things.

* Jesus proclaimed there was ONE God. (He was Jewish after all)
* Jesus said that God was greater than him.
* Jesus said why do you call me good for no one is good but God.
* Jesus prayed. (If Jesus prayed how can he be God? Who was he praying too?)

Now before you try and answer all of those questions, not to be rude but I had studied and probably read just about every answer from every Christian and Islamic source. I probably know the answers you're going to give and Biblical references. Nothing satisfies (before you say pray, I really have and still no clear guidance or answer)

To me it all seems to boil down to faith. There's no solid historical or theological evidence or answer. Both Christians and Muslim scholars have amazing arguments for and against the divinity of Christ. It seems to all come down to who you're willing to put your faith into.

Studying deeper into Islam, them not believing Jesus was crucified which is almost a historically confirmed agreed upon event amongst most scholars, amongst studying the life and history of Mohammad it seemed to me that on the balance of probability my faith was best placed in Christianity.

Now here's the biggest struggle.

For me the issue comes with the Holy Spirit. None of the early Christians seemed to believing in the trinity or understand/accept this concept. Jesus didn't preach it, nor did Paul and historically the earliest Christians did not have the concept of the trinity in their faith.

While you may point out to me many verses that mention the holy spirit or the trinity i.e. Go forth and baptise in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit etc none of these verses actually specifically teach the concept of the trinity clearly, it's all subjective and open to interpretation and A LOT of these verses are not found in the earliest translations of scripture available and have been added.

That's a HUGE problem for me, because how can I claim to be a Christian when I can not accept or believe in the concept of the trinity? No matter how much I pray, search, seek or study I can't grasp the concept of the trinity.

I suppose a lot of that comes from the fact when I was younger seeing people in Church roll around on the floor, praying in tongues etc etc first of all that always felt alien and not of God to me, but when my pastors spoke how it was a gift for Christians who are really blessed, I prayed and prayed for the gift of tongues and this Holy Spirit and I never ever once spoke in tongues, fell on the floor or was overcame by such a force.

Please help me understand I am so confused :\

Thanks for any replies in advance.

Richard

 

[John Hyperspace]

Lots of Christians don't believe in the trinity. Usually the trinity branches will scream "Heretics!" at the others, and the others, scream "Heretics!" right back at them. I'm being a little facetious; but not really. I would say that I believe in a trinity i.e. Father, Son and Spirit; but not necessarily as painfully and detailed out by the way men attempt to define them out.

I believe that the Father is God operating through the old covenant, that the Son is God operating through the new covenant, and that the Spirit is God operating. Energies, adminstrations, and gifts; as the scripture says. So there is one God; acting according to three covenant conditions. But I believe that God is also, a body; with many members and one Head; so God is one, yet, many; just as a body is one, yet, many. I believe that a person can express God through the Spirit, and be called "the image of God" in the same sense that Jesus said "Whoever sees Me sees the Father"; Jesus being the only "perfect expression" or "express image of God" to men, while we are "imperfect expressions" and as such "gods": as in the passage "You are gods" and He called them "gods" to whom the Word came. So God is called the "God of gods"

Really, it all just depends on your perspective. If I put three drops of water into a vessel, and point at the liquid, and ask "Three drops of water, or, one?" both answers are true, depending on your point of view.

But I do not believe there will ever come a time when we see three beings standing in front of us called "the Father, the Son and the Spirit"; the only being we will ever be able to see, is Jesus; the rest of God is spirit, and has no "material form" but is more like, a spirit. Meaning, such as a "spirit of truth" or a "spirit of love"; not a ghostly thing that flies around and passes throug walls; but an abstract idea, which is emergent from consciousness itself (consciousness being that from which idea is emergent). The only way we will ever "see" God is by looking at people who are acting toward others in love, and kindness, mercy and grace, etc. People who are helping others to come into understanding, etc.

 

[Whitworth]

Really, it all just depends on your perspective. If I put three drops of water into a vessel, and point at the liquid, and ask "Three drops of water, or, one?" both answers are true, depending on your point of view.

I have to say I love this analogy. I've heard of a lot of analogies that try and explain the trinity but this is by far the best I've heard.

Thanks for that.

In regards to everything else you have said, I fully understand and can contemplate where you're coming from.

Thank you for responding.

 

[SolomonVII]

http://biblehub.com/bsb/john/16.htm

The Promise of the Holy Spirit
(Joel 2:28-32; John 14:15-26; Acts 2:1-13; Acts 10:44-48; Acts 19:1-7)

5Now, however, I am going to Him who sent Me; yet none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6Instead, your hearts are filled with sorrow because I have told you these things. 7But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

8And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see Me; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world already stands condemned.

12I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. 13However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. 14He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you. 15Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will take from what is Mine and disclose it to you.

16In a little while you will see Me no longer, and then after a little while you will see Me.”a

Trinity is one way of making sense of all of this above.

 

[Kenny'sID]

First and foremost, I apologise if this is not in the correct section. I'm fairly new here and was confused as to where this topic would be best placed. That being said, if a moderator would feel it is better suited in another sub-forum, please feel welcome to move this thread.

TLDR: I have put the most important part/question of this thread in BOLD. So if you don't want to read the wall of text and want to get straight to the point/question please just read the BOLD text.

Hi all.

OK, I don't want to make this thread a HUGE wall of text, while I have no doubt it will be fairly long regardless, I will try and keep things as brief as possible.

So I used to be confident to call myself a Christian. I grew up never not believing but my family weren't religious so I didn't grow up having religion forced upon me. I remember being about 7 or 8 and hearing Christian music (Hillsong) for the first time and just crying, I don't know why it just overwhelmed my soul.

In school assemblies the local vicar used to come in and give talks. Every time he spoke about the Bible and Jesus it just made sense I never even questioned it.

When I became a teenager I got involved with a local Christian youth group and became a Christian. It all just made sense, I can't say the concept of God was ever doubted, even to this day I have always believed in God and could never be considered an atheist or even agnostic.

Anyway, I got baptised and everything went well for a few years I was heavily involved with the church and what not, then I began to majorly backslide. Sex, drugs, rock and roll, that kind of lifestyle you could say.

I stopped reading the Bible and living a Christian lifestyle. I NEVER stopped believing I just used to kid myself and cherry pick what I believed because I KNEW I was living against God's word.

Anyway fast forward I'm 26 now last year I started looking at religion again and reading the Bible and taking things more seriously. Cut a long story short I ended up exploring Islam and so much made sense to me.

Reading the Bible it was clear to me a few things.

* Jesus proclaimed there was ONE God. (He was Jewish after all)
* Jesus said that God was greater than him.
* Jesus said why do you call me good for no one is good but God.
* Jesus prayed. (If Jesus prayed how can he be God? Who was he praying too?)

Now before you try and answer all of those questions, not to be rude but I had studied and probably read just about every answer from every Christian and Islamic source. I probably know the answers you're going to give and Biblical references. Nothing satisfies (before you say pray, I really have and still no clear guidance or answer)

To me it all seems to boil down to faith. There's no solid historical or theological evidence or answer. Both Christians and Muslim scholars have amazing arguments for and against the divinity of Christ. It seems to all come down to who you're willing to put your faith into.

Studying deeper into Islam, them not believing Jesus was crucified which is almost a historically confirmed agreed upon event amongst most scholars, amongst studying the life and history of Mohammad it seemed to me that on the balance of probability my faith was best placed in Christianity.

Now here's the biggest struggle.

For me the issue comes with the Holy Spirit. None of the early Christians seemed to believing in the trinity or understand/accept this concept. Jesus didn't preach it, nor did Paul and historically the earliest Christians did not have the concept of the trinity in their faith.

While you may point out to me many verses that mention the holy spirit or the trinity i.e. Go forth and baptise in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit etc none of these verses actually specifically teach the concept of the trinity clearly, it's all subjective and open to interpretation and A LOT of these verses are not found in the earliest translations of scripture available and have been added.

That's a HUGE problem for me, because how can I claim to be a Christian when I can not accept or believe in the concept of the trinity? No matter how much I pray, search, seek or study I can't grasp the concept of the trinity.

I suppose a lot of that comes from the fact when I was younger seeing people in Church roll around on the floor, praying in tongues etc etc first of all that always felt alien and not of God to me, but when my pastors spoke how it was a gift for Christians who are really blessed, I prayed and prayed for the gift of tongues and this Holy Spirit and I never ever once spoke in tongues, fell on the floor or was overcame by such a force.

Please help me understand I am so confused :\

Thanks for any replies in advance.

Richard

Suddenly I'm not so worried about your understanding of the truth.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Father, Son and Holy Spirit are clearly revealed in passages such as the end of Matthew 28, John's Gospel - especially chapters 13 thru 17 - Romans 8 and John's First Epistle. It's definitely a Scriptural doctrine.

 

[Whitworth]

Father, Son and Holy Spirit are clearly revealed in passages such as the end of Matthew 28, John's Gospel - especially chapters 13 thru 17 - Romans 8 and John's First Epistle. It's definitely a Scriptural doctrine.

Thank you for your response and to everyone else who has responded above.

I continue to pray and ask God for guidance with this topic and to lead me into understanding.

I just find it really difficult to drop the subject and leave it to faith alone. I accept that some day I may have to as I simply can not get my head around it.

My heart tells me that God is not a God of confusion and if that the trinity was such a huge factor of knowing and understanding Him and was so important when it comes to salvation then He'd have made it abundantly clear.

Some argue he has made it as clear as day but I mean as clear as day that Jesus lived and died, indisputable facts. Everywhere the Holy Spirit or trinity is referenced it's all subjective or open to interpretation. Just like the verses you and others have quoted above, none of these CLEARLY state or teach the concept of the trinity.

I don't believe God is a God of confusion and would leave such an important belief open to interpretation or debate.

I know this is frustrating for a lot of Christians to grasp BUT just because it is a major belief does not mean I will blindly accept or follow. Man is corrupt and I believe the church today is FAR from what Christ would be happy with today. That being said I try and base my faiths on what was taught throughout the Bible and what Jesus said and historical records of the time.

I don't believe there's ample evidence of the trinity in the Bible. I don't believe it's clearly taught anywhere in the Bible or from early Christians I believe it's a concept or belief that has become accepted hundreds of years after Jesus' death.

Like I said, I will keep praying as I am always open to being wrong and hopefully God will give me insight/revelation into this.

I also sincerely hope I am not offending anyone here, that is not my intention. Just trying to figure some confusion out in my own head.

 

[Righttruth]

First and foremost, I apologise if this is not in the correct section. I'm fairly new here and was confused as to where this topic would be best placed. That being said, if a moderator would feel it is better suited in another sub-forum, please feel welcome to move this thread.

TLDR: I have put the most important part/question of this thread in BOLD. So if you don't want to read the wall of text and want to get straight to the point/question please just read the BOLD text.

Hi all.

OK, I don't want to make this thread a HUGE wall of text, while I have no doubt it will be fairly long regardless, I will try and keep things as brief as possible.

So I used to be confident to call myself a Christian. I grew up never not believing but my family weren't religious so I didn't grow up having religion forced upon me. I remember being about 7 or 8 and hearing Christian music (Hillsong) for the first time and just crying, I don't know why it just overwhelmed my soul.

In school assemblies the local vicar used to come in and give talks. Every time he spoke about the Bible and Jesus it just made sense I never even questioned it.

When I became a teenager I got involved with a local Christian youth group and became a Christian. It all just made sense, I can't say the concept of God was ever doubted, even to this day I have always believed in God and could never be considered an atheist or even agnostic.

Anyway, I got baptised and everything went well for a few years I was heavily involved with the church and what not, then I began to majorly backslide. Sex, drugs, rock and roll, that kind of lifestyle you could say.

I stopped reading the Bible and living a Christian lifestyle. I NEVER stopped believing I just used to kid myself and cherry pick what I believed because I KNEW I was living against God's word.

Anyway fast forward I'm 26 now last year I started looking at religion again and reading the Bible and taking things more seriously. Cut a long story short I ended up exploring Islam and so much made sense to me.

Reading the Bible it was clear to me a few things.

* Jesus proclaimed there was ONE God. (He was Jewish after all)
* Jesus said that God was greater than him.
* Jesus said why do you call me good for no one is good but God.
* Jesus prayed. (If Jesus prayed how can he be God? Who was he praying too?)

Now before you try and answer all of those questions, not to be rude but I had studied and probably read just about every answer from every Christian and Islamic source. I probably know the answers you're going to give and Biblical references. Nothing satisfies (before you say pray, I really have and still no clear guidance or answer)

To me it all seems to boil down to faith. There's no solid historical or theological evidence or answer. Both Christians and Muslim scholars have amazing arguments for and against the divinity of Christ. It seems to all come down to who you're willing to put your faith into.

Studying deeper into Islam, them not believing Jesus was crucified which is almost a historically confirmed agreed upon event amongst most scholars, amongst studying the life and history of Mohammad it seemed to me that on the balance of probability my faith was best placed in Christianity.

Now here's the biggest struggle.

For me the issue comes with the Holy Spirit. None of the early Christians seemed to believing in the trinity or understand/accept this concept. Jesus didn't preach it, nor did Paul and historically the earliest Christians did not have the concept of the trinity in their faith.

While you may point out to me many verses that mention the holy spirit or the trinity i.e. Go forth and baptise in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit etc none of these verses actually specifically teach the concept of the trinity clearly, it's all subjective and open to interpretation and A LOT of these verses are not found in the earliest translations of scripture available and have been added.

That's a HUGE problem for me, because how can I claim to be a Christian when I can not accept or believe in the concept of the trinity? No matter how much I pray, search, seek or study I can't grasp the concept of the trinity.

I suppose a lot of that comes from the fact when I was younger seeing people in Church roll around on the floor, praying in tongues etc etc first of all that always felt alien and not of God to me, but when my pastors spoke how it was a gift for Christians who are really blessed, I prayed and prayed for the gift of tongues and this Holy Spirit and I never ever once spoke in tongues, fell on the floor or was overcame by such a force.

Please help me understand I am so confused :\

Thanks for any replies in advance.

Richard

I believe in the Trinity in the sense of God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as revealed in the Bible. I don't believe Son is God so also that the Holy Spirit is God.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I believe in the Trinity in the sense of God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as revealed in the Bible. I don't believe Son is God so also that the Holy Spirit is God.

I believe Jesus it Jesus, and God is God, they are only one in the sense they share the same values, just as an earthly son might share the values of his father.

I believe the holy Spirit is those values and something one might think we would develop over time as we would anyone's values that we want to adopt as our own. But apparently there is a bit more to it than that. It could be as simple as those values, or the mind of God as I also like to think of it as, is immediately put upon us, with no waiting to develop them, and in a way nothing was misunderstood by trying to figure it out for our self...or even something a little more than that.

I do not believe the holy spirit is anything more than just as we have the spirit of God, or we have the spirit of Satan. It's basically a "way we want to be" instilled inside us to help us be that to full potential as long as we don't work against it. It's not an entity like Jesus, God or man, but only a perfect set of directions, if you will...but direction that can also give power.

 

[Rescued One]

First and foremost, I apologise if this is not in the correct section. I'm fairly new here and was confused as to where this topic would be best placed. That being said, if a moderator would feel it is better suited in another sub-forum, please feel welcome to move this thread.

TLDR: I have put the most important part/question of this thread in BOLD. So if you don't want to read the wall of text and want to get straight to the point/question please just read the BOLD text.

Hi all.

OK, I don't want to make this thread a HUGE wall of text, while I have no doubt it will be fairly long regardless, I will try and keep things as brief as possible.

So I used to be confident to call myself a Christian. I grew up never not believing but my family weren't religious so I didn't grow up having religion forced upon me. I remember being about 7 or 8 and hearing Christian music (Hillsong) for the first time and just crying, I don't know why it just overwhelmed my soul.

In school assemblies the local vicar used to come in and give talks. Every time he spoke about the Bible and Jesus it just made sense I never even questioned it.

When I became a teenager I got involved with a local Christian youth group and became a Christian. It all just made sense, I can't say the concept of God was ever doubted, even to this day I have always believed in God and could never be considered an atheist or even agnostic.

Anyway, I got baptised and everything went well for a few years I was heavily involved with the church and what not, then I began to majorly backslide. Sex, drugs, rock and roll, that kind of lifestyle you could say.

I stopped reading the Bible and living a Christian lifestyle. I NEVER stopped believing I just used to kid myself and cherry pick what I believed because I KNEW I was living against God's word.

Anyway fast forward I'm 26 now last year I started looking at religion again and reading the Bible and taking things more seriously. Cut a long story short I ended up exploring Islam and so much made sense to me.

Reading the Bible it was clear to me a few things.

* Jesus proclaimed there was ONE God. (He was Jewish after all)
* Jesus said that God was greater than him.
* Jesus said why do you call me good for no one is good but God.
* Jesus prayed. (If Jesus prayed how can he be God? Who was he praying too?)

Now before you try and answer all of those questions, not to be rude but I had studied and probably read just about every answer from every Christian and Islamic source. I probably know the answers you're going to give and Biblical references. Nothing satisfies (before you say pray, I really have and still no clear guidance or answer)

To me it all seems to boil down to faith. There's no solid historical or theological evidence or answer. Both Christians and Muslim scholars have amazing arguments for and against the divinity of Christ. It seems to all come down to who you're willing to put your faith into.

Studying deeper into Islam, them not believing Jesus was crucified which is almost a historically confirmed agreed upon event amongst most scholars, amongst studying the life and history of Mohammad it seemed to me that on the balance of probability my faith was best placed in Christianity.

Now here's the biggest struggle.

For me the issue comes with the Holy Spirit. None of the early Christians seemed to believing in the trinity or understand/accept this concept. Jesus didn't preach it, nor did Paul and historically the earliest Christians did not have the concept of the trinity in their faith.

While you may point out to me many verses that mention the holy spirit or the trinity i.e. Go forth and baptise in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit etc none of these verses actually specifically teach the concept of the trinity clearly, it's all subjective and open to interpretation and A LOT of these verses are not found in the earliest translations of scripture available and have been added.

That's a HUGE problem for me, because how can I claim to be a Christian when I can not accept or believe in the concept of the trinity? No matter how much I pray, search, seek or study I can't grasp the concept of the trinity.

I suppose a lot of that comes from the fact when I was younger seeing people in Church roll around on the floor, praying in tongues etc etc first of all that always felt alien and not of God to me, but when my pastors spoke how it was a gift for Christians who are really blessed, I prayed and prayed for the gift of tongues and this Holy Spirit and I never ever once spoke in tongues, fell on the floor or was overcame by such a force.

Please help me understand I am so confused :\

Thanks for any replies in advance.

Richard

Well, I don't believe God wants people to roll on the floor. That isn't even in the Bible. And when I was visiting certain churches, people were told that if they didn't receive the gift of tongues, they had unconfessed or unrepented sins blocking that gift. I knew people who supposedly had the "gift of tongues" but were living in sin.

I think that the gift of tongues is the ability to speak to foreigners in the language they speak.

Acts 2
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

Tomorrow I hope I have a chance to explain some of what I've learned about the Trinity. I was in my thirties before I believed in the Trinity.

 

[AvgJoe]

First and foremost, I apologise if this is not in the correct section. I'm fairly new here and was confused as to where this topic would be best placed. That being said, if a moderator would feel it is better suited in another sub-forum, please feel welcome to move this thread.

TLDR: I have put the most important part/question of this thread in BOLD. So if you don't want to read the wall of text and want to get straight to the point/question please just read the BOLD text.

Hi all.

OK, I don't want to make this thread a HUGE wall of text, while I have no doubt it will be fairly long regardless, I will try and keep things as brief as possible.

So I used to be confident to call myself a Christian. I grew up never not believing but my family weren't religious so I didn't grow up having religion forced upon me. I remember being about 7 or 8 and hearing Christian music (Hillsong) for the first time and just crying, I don't know why it just overwhelmed my soul.

In school assemblies the local vicar used to come in and give talks. Every time he spoke about the Bible and Jesus it just made sense I never even questioned it.

When I became a teenager I got involved with a local Christian youth group and became a Christian. It all just made sense, I can't say the concept of God was ever doubted, even to this day I have always believed in God and could never be considered an atheist or even agnostic.

Anyway, I got baptised and everything went well for a few years I was heavily involved with the church and what not, then I began to majorly backslide. Sex, drugs, rock and roll, that kind of lifestyle you could say.

I stopped reading the Bible and living a Christian lifestyle. I NEVER stopped believing I just used to kid myself and cherry pick what I believed because I KNEW I was living against God's word.

Anyway fast forward I'm 26 now last year I started looking at religion again and reading the Bible and taking things more seriously. Cut a long story short I ended up exploring Islam and so much made sense to me.

Reading the Bible it was clear to me a few things.

* Jesus proclaimed there was ONE God. (He was Jewish after all)
* Jesus said that God was greater than him.
* Jesus said why do you call me good for no one is good but God.
* Jesus prayed. (If Jesus prayed how can he be God? Who was he praying too?)

Now before you try and answer all of those questions, not to be rude but I had studied and probably read just about every answer from every Christian and Islamic source. I probably know the answers you're going to give and Biblical references. Nothing satisfies (before you say pray, I really have and still no clear guidance or answer)

To me it all seems to boil down to faith. There's no solid historical or theological evidence or answer. Both Christians and Muslim scholars have amazing arguments for and against the divinity of Christ. It seems to all come down to who you're willing to put your faith into.

Studying deeper into Islam, them not believing Jesus was crucified which is almost a historically confirmed agreed upon event amongst most scholars, amongst studying the life and history of Mohammad it seemed to me that on the balance of probability my faith was best placed in Christianity.

Now here's the biggest struggle.

For me the issue comes with the Holy Spirit. None of the early Christians seemed to believing in the trinity or understand/accept this concept. Jesus didn't preach it, nor did Paul and historically the earliest Christians did not have the concept of the trinity in their faith.

While you may point out to me many verses that mention the holy spirit or the trinity i.e. Go forth and baptise in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit etc none of these verses actually specifically teach the concept of the trinity clearly, it's all subjective and open to interpretation and A LOT of these verses are not found in the earliest translations of scripture available and have been added.

That's a HUGE problem for me, because how can I claim to be a Christian when I can not accept or believe in the concept of the trinity? No matter how much I pray, search, seek or study I can't grasp the concept of the trinity.

I suppose a lot of that comes from the fact when I was younger seeing people in Church roll around on the floor, praying in tongues etc etc first of all that always felt alien and not of God to me, but when my pastors spoke how it was a gift for Christians who are really blessed, I prayed and prayed for the gift of tongues and this Holy Spirit and I never ever once spoke in tongues, fell on the floor or was overcame by such a force.

Please help me understand I am so confused :\

Thanks for any replies in advance.

Richard

Well, I can certainly understand your confusion, as the Trinity is one of the most difficult topics to get your head around. It took me awhile to work through it, I came to a place where I'm comfortable with it and I'll do my best to share it with you.

The most difficult thing about the Christian concept of the Trinity is that there is no way to perfectly and completely understand it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain. God is infinitely greater than we are; therefore, we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him. The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God. Though we can understand some facts about the relationship of the different Persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this does not mean the Trinity is not true or that it is not based on the teachings of the Bible.

God is a trinity of persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is not the same person as the Son; the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the same person as Father. They are not three gods and not three beings. They are three distinct persons; yet, they are all the one God. Each has a will, can speak, can love, etc., and these are demonstrations of personhood. They are in absolute perfect harmony consisting of one substance. They are coeternal, coequal, and copowerful. If any one of the three were removed, there would be no God.

Keep in mind when studying this subject that the word “Trinity” is not found in Scripture. This is a term that is used to attempt to describe the triune God—three coexistent, co-eternal Persons who make up God. Of real importance is that the concept represented by the word “Trinity” does exist in Scripture. The following is what God’s Word says about the Trinity:

1) There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5).

2) The Trinity consists of three Persons (Genesis 1:1, 26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun “us” are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. While this is not an explicit argument for the Trinity, it does denote the aspect of plurality in God. The Hebrew word for "God," "Elohim," definitely allows for the Trinity.

In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this passage is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of three distinct Persons in the Trinity.

3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages. In the Old Testament, “LORD” is distinguished from “Lord” (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). The Spirit is distinguished from the “LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from “God” (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17). This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another Person in the Trinity—the Father.

4) Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16).

5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.

6) The individual members of the Trinity have different tasks. The Father is the ultimate source or cause of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father initiates all of these things.

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1, 16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The following chart should help you to see how the doctrine of the Trinity is systematically derived from Scripture. The list is not exhaustive, only illustrative.

The doctrine of the Trinity has been a divisive issue throughout the entire history of the Christian church. While the core aspects of the Trinity are clearly presented in God’s Word, some of the side issues are not as explicitly clear. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God—but there is only one God. That is the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. Beyond that, the issues are, to a certain extent, debatable and non-essential. Rather than attempting to fully define the Trinity with our finite human minds, we would be better served by focusing on the fact of God's greatness and His infinitely higher nature. “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” (Romans 11:33-34).​

 

[ripple the car]

First and foremost, I apologise if this is not in the correct section. I'm fairly new here and was confused as to where this topic would be best placed. That being said, if a moderator would feel it is better suited in another sub-forum, please feel welcome to move this thread.

TLDR: I have put the most important part/question of this thread in BOLD. So if you don't want to read the wall of text and want to get straight to the point/question please just read the BOLD text.

Hi all.

OK, I don't want to make this thread a HUGE wall of text, while I have no doubt it will be fairly long regardless, I will try and keep things as brief as possible.

So I used to be confident to call myself a Christian. I grew up never not believing but my family weren't religious so I didn't grow up having religion forced upon me. I remember being about 7 or 8 and hearing Christian music (Hillsong) for the first time and just crying, I don't know why it just overwhelmed my soul.

In school assemblies the local vicar used to come in and give talks. Every time he spoke about the Bible and Jesus it just made sense I never even questioned it.

When I became a teenager I got involved with a local Christian youth group and became a Christian. It all just made sense, I can't say the concept of God was ever doubted, even to this day I have always believed in God and could never be considered an atheist or even agnostic.

Anyway, I got baptised and everything went well for a few years I was heavily involved with the church and what not, then I began to majorly backslide. Sex, drugs, rock and roll, that kind of lifestyle you could say.

I stopped reading the Bible and living a Christian lifestyle. I NEVER stopped believing I just used to kid myself and cherry pick what I believed because I KNEW I was living against God's word.

Anyway fast forward I'm 26 now last year I started looking at religion again and reading the Bible and taking things more seriously. Cut a long story short I ended up exploring Islam and so much made sense to me.

Reading the Bible it was clear to me a few things.

* Jesus proclaimed there was ONE God. (He was Jewish after all)
* Jesus said that God was greater than him.
* Jesus said why do you call me good for no one is good but God.
* Jesus prayed. (If Jesus prayed how can he be God? Who was he praying too?)

Now before you try and answer all of those questions, not to be rude but I had studied and probably read just about every answer from every Christian and Islamic source. I probably know the answers you're going to give and Biblical references. Nothing satisfies (before you say pray, I really have and still no clear guidance or answer)

To me it all seems to boil down to faith. There's no solid historical or theological evidence or answer. Both Christians and Muslim scholars have amazing arguments for and against the divinity of Christ. It seems to all come down to who you're willing to put your faith into.

Studying deeper into Islam, them not believing Jesus was crucified which is almost a historically confirmed agreed upon event amongst most scholars, amongst studying the life and history of Mohammad it seemed to me that on the balance of probability my faith was best placed in Christianity.

Now here's the biggest struggle.

For me the issue comes with the Holy Spirit. None of the early Christians seemed to believing in the trinity or understand/accept this concept. Jesus didn't preach it, nor did Paul and historically the earliest Christians did not have the concept of the trinity in their faith.

While you may point out to me many verses that mention the holy spirit or the trinity i.e. Go forth and baptise in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit etc none of these verses actually specifically teach the concept of the trinity clearly, it's all subjective and open to interpretation and A LOT of these verses are not found in the earliest translations of scripture available and have been added.

That's a HUGE problem for me, because how can I claim to be a Christian when I can not accept or believe in the concept of the trinity? No matter how much I pray, search, seek or study I can't grasp the concept of the trinity.

I suppose a lot of that comes from the fact when I was younger seeing people in Church roll around on the floor, praying in tongues etc etc first of all that always felt alien and not of God to me, but when my pastors spoke how it was a gift for Christians who are really blessed, I prayed and prayed for the gift of tongues and this Holy Spirit and I never ever once spoke in tongues, fell on the floor or was overcame by such a force.

Please help me understand I am so confused :\

Thanks for any replies in advance.

Richard

Hey, Sir. As having come to Christ from Islam, I can say this. Jesus is without a doubt the Son and Word of God, from eternity. Through the Son, God the Father made all things. The Son is the exact image and deity of the Father, in flesh, and when we see Him, we see the Father. Thus the Father and Son are One, in a unique and essential way. We should honor the Son even as per honor the Father, and must go through Him to see and know God. As He is the only way to do this. The Spirit comes from the Father and helps us to follow the Son. That's about as specific as I can get. As far as I can see, that's the Scriptural Trinity. It's simple, but something we can discern based on Scripture. One God, One Lord, One Spirit. All co-eternal, and needful for our salvation. Not exactly "One God in Three Persons", but similar.

 

[Kenny'sID]

The term Trinity confused me at first, I had to keep googling it and reminding myself that Trinity, which means tri or three is what they are referring to as one. The term makes no sense in context to actual definition of what the Trinity is supposed to be.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Thank you for your response and to everyone else who has responded above.

I continue to pray and ask God for guidance with this topic and to lead me into understanding.

I just find it really difficult to drop the subject and leave it to faith alone. I accept that some day I may have to as I simply can not get my head around it.

My heart tells me that God is not a God of confusion and if that the trinity was such a huge factor of knowing and understanding Him and was so important when it comes to salvation then He'd have made it abundantly clear.

Some argue he has made it as clear as day but I mean as clear as day that Jesus lived and died, indisputable facts. Everywhere the Holy Spirit or trinity is referenced it's all subjective or open to interpretation. Just like the verses you and others have quoted above, none of these CLEARLY state or teach the concept of the trinity.

I don't believe God is a God of confusion and would leave such an important belief open to interpretation or debate.

I know this is frustrating for a lot of Christians to grasp BUT just because it is a major belief does not mean I will blindly accept or follow. Man is corrupt and I believe the church today is FAR from what Christ would be happy with today. That being said I try and base my faiths on what was taught throughout the Bible and what Jesus said and historical records of the time.

I don't believe there's ample evidence of the trinity in the Bible. I don't believe it's clearly taught anywhere in the Bible or from early Christians I believe it's a concept or belief that has become accepted hundreds of years after Jesus' death.

Like I said, I will keep praying as I am always open to being wrong and hopefully God will give me insight/revelation into this.

I also sincerely hope I am not offending anyone here, that is not my intention. Just trying to figure some confusion out in my own head.

Regarding the principle of faith, Hebrews 11 is a pivotal passage.

If you carefully follow through all the Scripture references given about Father, Son and Holy Spirit, you will see all three Persons at those various references.

 

[Hillsage]

Reading the Bible it was clear to me a few things.
* Jesus prayed. (If Jesus prayed how can he be God? Who was he praying too?)

That same dilemma presents itself to those who think the Holy Spirit is in them praying in tongues to God. I'm sorry, but God doesn't need to pray to God, so I understand your question. I now rest in an answer which 'fundamentalist' translators never imagined. Why? Because they weren't tongue talkers either, so they could only translate out of their understanding and their 'lack of that spiritual experience'.

For me the issue comes with the Holy Spirit. None of the early Christians seemed to believing in the trinity or understand/accept this concept. Jesus didn't preach it, nor did Paul and historically the earliest Christians did not have the concept of the trinity in their faith.

The church fought over that doctrine for 400 years. So I suspect that, if 'having to believe' in the trinity was so important, it would have been 'figured out and spelled out', when the books of the NT were first written. Hence the confusion comes not from God, but from man.

I suppose a lot of that comes from the fact when I was younger seeing people in Church roll around on the floor, praying in tongues etc etc first of all that always felt alien and not of God to me, but when my pastors spoke how it was a gift for Christians who are really blessed, I prayed and prayed for the gift of tongues and this Holy Spirit and I never ever once spoke in tongues, fell on the floor or was overcame by such a force.
Richard

As a Charismatic for over 40 years I have never once rolled on the floor. Neither have I stood on the box on main street and preached hell fire and damnation like some zealous but immature fundamentalist believers do. Even I have made a wide path around such souls, when they are only making fools of themselves doing such things without the leading or anoinnting of the Spirit.

 

[Der Alte]

* * * While you may point out to me many verses that mention the holy spirit or the trinity i.e. Go forth and baptise in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit etc none of these verses actually specifically teach the concept of the trinity clearly, it's all subjective and open to interpretation and A LOT of these verses are not found in the earliest translations of scripture available and have been added. * * *

This is false information which has been spread around the internet. Can you provide any credible, verifiable, historical evidence that a lot of verses concerning Trinity "are not found in the earliest translations of scripture available and have been added?"
Eleven passages, from the list of 86, below, which reveal the Triunity of God. Each passage shows Father, Son, and Holy Spirit having a different relationship, effect, role, purpose, etc., with respect to believers.
For example, #1, Titus 3:4, believers are SAVED BY Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, all three. We are SAVED BY,
1. the kindness and love of God our Savior,
2., by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost, shed on us abundantly.
3. through Jesus Christ our Saviour, all three..

(1.) Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of 1 God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of 2the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he 3 shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
(2.) 2 Co 13:14 1 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and 2the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, 3be with you all. Amen.
(3.) Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, 1 praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves 2in the love of God, looking for 3 the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
(4.) 1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to 1 the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of 2 the Spirit, [Repeated three times, cf. 2 Th 2.13, Ro 15:16] unto obedience and 3 sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: [Repeated twice, cf. Heb 9.14] Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
(5.) Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, 1 The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and 2 the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing, which shall be born of thee shall be called 3 the Son of God,.
(6.) Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be 1 baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive 2 the gift of the Holy Ghost,.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as 3 the Lord our God shall call,.
(7.) Rom 15:16 That I should be 1 the minister of Jesus Christ, to the Gentiles, ministering 2the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being 3 sanctified by the Holy Ghost,.
(8.) Rom 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be 1 a root of Jesse,, and he, that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him, shall the Gentiles trust.
13 Now 2 the God of hope, fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through 3 the power of the Holy Ghost,.
(9.) Heb 9.14 How much more, then, will 1 the blood of Christ, who 2 through the eternal Spirit, offered himself unblemished 3 to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!,
(10.) 2 Thess 2.13 But we ought always to 1 thank God, for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God, chose you to be saved through 2 the sanctifying work of the Spirit, and through belief in the truth.
14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might 3 share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ,.
(11.) I Cor 12.3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are 1 different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.,
5 There are 2 different kinds of service, but the same Lord.,
6 There are 3 different kinds of working, but the same God, works all of them in all men.
The Gospels and Acts
Mat 1:18-22, Mat 3:9-11, Mat 3:16-17, Mat 4:1-4, Mat 10:19-23, Mat 12:28, Mat 28:19, Mark 12:35-37, Lk 1:15-17, Lk 1:30-35 *, Lk 1:67-69, Lk 2:25-32, Lk 4:12-13, Lk 10:21, Lk 12:8-10, Jn 1:32-34, Jn 3:31-35, Jn 14:15-17, Jn 14:25, Jn 15:26, Jn 16:7-10, Jn 16:13-15, Jn 20:16-22, Acts 1:4-5, Acts 1:7-8, Acts 2:32-33, Acts 2:38-39*, Acts 4:8-10, Acts 4:24-26, Act 4:29-31, Acts 5:30-32, Acts 7:51-56, Acts 8:14-17, Acts 9:15-20 Acts 10:38, Acts 11:15-17, Acts 11:23-24, Acts 15:7-11, Acts 16:6-10, Acts 20:22-24, Acts 28:23-25.
The Pauline writings
Rom 1:1-4, Rom 5:1-5, Rom 8:9-11, Rom 8:13-16, Rom 8:26-29, Rom 15:12-13*, Rom 15:16*, , Rom 14:15-17, Rom 15:16, Rom 15:18-19, Rom 15:30, I Cor 2:8-10, I Cor 2:14-16, I Cor 6:9-11, I Cor 6:14-19, I Cor 12:3-5*, 2 Cor 1:20-22, 2 Cor 3:3-4, 2 Cor 13:14*, Gal 3:1-5, Gal 4:4-6, Gal 5:21-25, Eph 2:17-18, Eph 3:14-17, Eph 4:4-6, Eph 4:30-32, Eph 5:18-20, Phil 3:3, I Thess 1:4-6, 2 Thess 2:13-14*, I Tim 3:15-16, Titus 3:4-6.*
The General Epistles
Heb 2:3-4; Heb 6:3-6; Heb 9:14*; Heb 10:29-31; I Pet 1:2; * I Pet 3:18; I Pet 4:14; I Jn 3:21-24; I Jn 4:13-14; I Jn 5:6-9; Jud 1:20-21*.
Revelation
Rev 14:12-13, Rev 22:17-18,​

 

[Hillsage]

Well, I don't believe God wants people to roll on the floor. That isn't even in the Bible.

Neither is Sunday school, but that's beyond the point. Lots of things are done 'in the name of God' and I'm confident God is looking down saying; "Is that child of mine retarded or just immature...no, he's just immature."

And when I was visiting certain churches, people were told that if they didn't receive the gift of tongues, they had unconfessed or unrepented sins blocking that gift. I knew people who supposedly had the "gift of tongues" but were living in sin.

Maybe so, remember Simon the magician who "believed and was baptized" but still had some "repentance from wickedness" issues to deal with. But making 'unconfessed sins' the reason may be just as theologically wrong, as those who don't believe in tongues at all IMO. And all of us having to admit we 'sin' still, is pretty much a given IMO. So thinking the gift of tongues makes us sinless is just as theologically wrong also. Simply proves ignorance of the whole theology of that doctrine IMO.

I think that the gift of tongues is the ability to speak to foreigners in the language they speak.

Only problem with that statement is SCRIPTURE doesn't agree;

KJV 1CO 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Remember what I just posted about 'translators' not knowing how to translate correctly? This verse is a prime example. Read it in another translation.

RSV 1 Corinthians 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

So, should the Sspirit be capitalized in that verse, or not? I say 'NOT'. The Holy Spirit IS God and doesn't need to pray to God.

 

[Der Alte]

There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Spirit. Thirty six (36) scripture which address or refer to Jesus as God, Matt 1:23, Isa 9:6, Luke 7:16, John 1:1, 3, 4, 10, 14, 18, 10:33, 5:18,8: 58, 12;24, 14:9, 17:5, 10, 20:28, Act 20:28, Rom 9:5, 2 Cor 4:4, Col 1:14-16, 2:9, Eph 3:9, Heb 1:1:2-3, 8-12, 3:3, Phi 2:6, 1 Tim 1:1, 3:16, 6:15, Tit 2;13, 2 Pet 1:1, 1 John 5:20, Rev 17:14, 19;16, 22:12-13

[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
[2] Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
[3]Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.
[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[5] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[6] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him[God created the world, Gen 1:1][/color], and the world knew him not.
[7] Joh 1:14 And the Word [acting on Himself] became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, μονογενὴς θεὸς ] which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
[10] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. [Jewish leaders speaking]
[11] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[John speaking]
[12] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am [ אהיה/ehyeh, I am, Ex 3:14].
[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his [Jesus] glory, and spake of him[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 6:1ff].

Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple​

[14] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
[15] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was[Jesus was aware of His existence before the world was created.].
[16] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine[Everything that belongs to the Father belongs to Jesus]; and I am glorified in them.
[17] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, [Jesus] My Lord and my God. [Thomas addressed Jesus as God and Jesus praised him.]
[18] Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
[19] Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever[Jesus called God]. Amen.
[20] 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
[21] Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
[23] Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
[24] Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
[25] Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever[God calls the Son, God]: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
[26] Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
[27] Phi 2:6 Who, being [existing] in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[28] 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh[Jesus called God], is justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
[29] 1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ[Jesus called God], which is our hope;
[30] 1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;[The lamb is king of kings, Rev 17:14, Jesus is king of kings, Rev 19:16, God is Lord of Lords Deu 10:17]
[31] Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God];
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
[32] 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God]:
[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life[Jesus called God].
[34] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17]: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
[35] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17].
[36] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 40:10].
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 44:6]​

3. There is one God! The Holy Spirit is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Spirit is not the Father or the Son. Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27.
Scripture which identify the Holy Spirit as God

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.​

This passage, Act 5:3-4, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as God by equating lying to the H.S. with lying to God.

Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.​

This passage Act 28:25-27, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying the H.S. spoke words which were spoken by YHWH, in Isa 6:8-10, below.

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, [יהוה/YHWH] saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed
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Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. [O.T. see יהוה/YHWH, Jer 31:33-34]​

This passage, Heb 10:15-17, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying words spoken by YHWH, in Jer 31:33-34, below, were spoken by the H.S.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, [יהוה/YHWH] I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
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Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. [O.T. יהוה/YHWH, Ps 95:10]
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) [O.T. יהוה/YHWH, Deu 1:34-35]​

This passage, Heb 3:7-11, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying words spoken by YHWH in Psa 95:10-11, and Deu 1:34-35, below, were spoken by the Holy Spirit.

Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I b][יהוה/YHWH vs. 6]grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.
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Deu 1:34 And the LORD [יהוה/YHWH] heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying,
35 Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers,​

 

[AvgJoe]

Reading the Bible it was clear to me a few things.

* Jesus proclaimed there was ONE God. (He was Jewish after all)
* Jesus said that God was greater than him.
* Jesus said why do you call me good for no one is good but God.
* Jesus prayed. (If Jesus prayed how can he be God? Who was he praying too?)

Now before you try and answer all of those questions, not to be rude but I had studied and probably read just about every answer from every Christian and Islamic source. I probably know the answers you're going to give and Biblical references. Nothing satisfies (before you say pray, I really have and still no clear guidance or answer)

Please help me understand I am so confused :\

Thanks for any replies in advance.

Richard

When I was searching for the answer to the question, Is Jesus God?, I found a couple things in Scripture that I have never seen published on the internet, besides the handful of times that I've shared it with someone on this forum, and I'll share them with you, here. I hope it helps you to see who Jesus truly is.

Question: In Scripture, Who is the Word?

(John 1:1-3, 14) 1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2) He was in the beginning with God. 3) All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 14) And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Who is this Word? We start to find out in the very next verse.

(John 1:15) John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”

Then, down in verses 29 & 30, John reveals of whom he is speaking about in verse 15, the same being the Word in verses 1-3 & 14.

(John 1:29-30) 29)The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30)This is He of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.’

John bore witness of the Word (v 15). John said Jesus is the one of which he bore witness(vs 29-30). Jesus is the Word.

So,

(John 1:1, 14) 1. In the beginning was (Jesus), and (Jesus) was with God, and (Jesus) was God. 14. And (Jesus) was made flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Jesus is the Word. The Word is God. Jesus is God.


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(Revelation 19:13) He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

Who is this Word of God?

Some of the attributes of the Word of God:
1) Rev. 19:12: His eyes were as flame of fire
2) Rev. 19:15: out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword
3) Rev. 19:16 : His name is KINGS OF KINDS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Whose eyes were as flame of fire?
Revelation 2:18 - Jesus, the Son of God, hath eyes like unto a flame of fire.

Who has a sharp sword that goeth out of His mouth?
Revelation 1:16 - Out of Jesus' mouth went a sharp, two-edged, sword.

Whose name is KING OF KINGS AND LORDS OF LORDS?
Revelation 17:14 - The Lamb is the KING OF KINGS AND LORDS OF LORDS.

Who is the Lamb?
John 1:29 - Jesus is the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Jesus is The Word of God!

(Revelation 13:19) He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called (Jesus).

 

[SkyWriting]

Please help me understand I am so confused :\
Thanks for any replies in advance.
Richard

God is Spirit, and you are not.
The scriptures are clear that
some aspects of God are unknowable.

Do puppies know Jesus? I dunno either.