The tribulation will be world wide

[David Kent]

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

[The saints - Church] that us your supposition and it is incorrect.

Your posts are so mixed it it is impossible to reply to them Such a muddle. The early church, I repeat, tell us it is the Roman Empire and Emperor who will be removed, they knew that because Paul said he told them.

[

 

[David Kent]

Show me anywhere in the Bible where the 70th week of Daniel is not called the very source for the coined phrase, tribulation, used by most every expositor of eschatology.


Quasar02

You have made the statement, so it is for you to prove it scriptural as as Martin Luther said, "A negative cannot be proved", or something similar. Of course there are no scriptures that support that. However much you and others repeat that, it doesn't make it true.
Your teaching is less that 200 years old and you should read what Paul said to Timothy. 1 Tim 4:1

 

[David Kent]

Show me anywhere in the Bible where the 70th week of Daniel is not called the very source for the coined phrase, tribulation, used by most every expositor of eschatology.


Quasar02

There you go again, it is up to you to show it is, not for anyone else to show it is not. You cannot of course.
Most US expositors are the result of being taught the Scofield teaching because when the Scofield bible was produced in the early 1900s it was given free to all the US bible colleges. And they taught it. problem with that is very few read scripture enough to understand it is incorrect. Some of us do.
Here in the UK more schools are discerning. Although I suspect the more liberal Baptist churches will go along with that, but I haven't checked so I don't know.

 

[Douggg]

Well there are several problems with that post.
1.There is nothing in the scriptures that teach that.
You say we will gather to meet the Lord after the Antichrist? How can we if we are forever with the Lord?
2 When will the saints be raised? I will leave you to answer that.

David the rapture could happen before the 70th week begins. Or it may happen after the 70th week begins and the person has become the Antichrist by being anointed the King of Israel.

Question 2 - the dead in Christ will be raised a millisecond (assumed) before them who are alive at the time are translated. Together all of the saints are caught up together in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

In relation to whether that happens before the 70th week begins or after - cannot be determined.

 

[Douggg]

Show me anywhere in the Bible where the 70th week of Daniel is not called the very source for the coined phrase, tribulation, used by most every expositor of eschatology.


Quasar02

The source is not in the bible. The source is Dallas Theological Seminary, as far as I can tell.

 

[LostChildinTheMidst]

Who will survive the Tribulation?The Tribulation is referred to by Christians as the last 7 years of history before Jesus returns to rule earth. During this time period the Antichrist will come to power, and there will be many natural (and unnatural) disasters, wars, famines, etc. I believe this time is coming very quickly - we can already see some previews in the natural disasters the world has experienced the last few years. But many people do not seem to be worried. Or they expect that they will be one of the lucky few who survive - just like in the movies. But is this a realistic expectation? What are the actual chances of surviving the Tribulation? Here I will attempt to guess at that number, and see what it means for you personally.Number of Deaths per JudgementMost of the disasters which happen during the Tribulation are listed in the book of Revelation. I have already gone into more detail on each disaster in my article here, so for reference you may wish to read that article first. Below I will list each judgement and list how many the Bible says die from it. Then we'll see what percent of the earth's population is left over. I will assume a world population of 7 billion people at the starting point.Seal JudgementsThe Antichrist appears (Revelation 6:1-2): 0 deaths

1. The beast out of the sea, the Antichrist is revealed
2. Worldwide war. (Revelation 6:3-4): unknown
3. Economic collapse. (Revelation 6:5-6): unknown
4. Death (famine, disease, crime, animal attacks). (Revelation 6:7-8): 1/4 of the world's population = 1.75 billion deaths
5. Martyrs cry out. (usually interpreted as Antichrist killing Christians) (Revelation 6:9-11): unknown
6. Earthquake which moves mountains and islands, multiple meteor strikes. (Revelation 6:12-14): unknown
7. Silence in heaven. (Revelation 8:1-5): 0 deaths
8. Trumpet Judgements
   1. 1/3 of earth, trees, and plants burned. (Revelation 8:7): unknown
   2. Asteroid impact in ocean - kills 1/3 of sea life and poisons 1/3 of ocean. (Revelation 8:8): unknown
   3. Asteroid impact which poisons 1/3 of fresh water. (Revelation 8:10-11): "Many people died because the water was so bitter" (unknown)
   4. Reduction of sun, moon, and starlight by 1/3. (Revelation 8:12): 0 deaths
   5. Release of supernatural "locusts" (probably demons) which torment people for 5 months. (Revelation 9:1-11): 0 deaths
   6. Deaths of people caused by 200 million war horses and fire, smoke, and sulfur: possibly nuclear war. (Revelation 9:13-19): 1/3 of remaining world's population = 1.75 billion deaths
   7. Earthquake, hail, lightning, thunder. (Revelation 11:19): unknown
   8. Bowl Judgements
      1. Painful sores for people with Mark of the Beast. (Revelation 16:1-2): 0 deaths
      2. All sea life dies, all oceans become like blood. (Revelation 16:3): unknown
      3. All rivers and streams become like blood. (Revelation 16:4): unknown
      4. Sun intensifies and scorches people. (Revelation 16:8): 0 deaths
      5. Darkness on Antichrist's kingdom, painful sores on people. (Revelation 16:10): 0 deaths
      6. River Euphrates dries up, battle of Armageddon. (Revelation 16:12-16): unknown
      7. Worst earthquake of all history, 100 pound hailstones. (Revelation 16:17-21): unknown
      8. Out of all these judgements, the Bible only mentions 1/4 of the world's population dying in Seal #4, and 1/3 of the remaining world population dies in Trumpet #6. Put together, these two judgements alone kill 3.5 billion people (50% of today's world population). This is equivalent to the entire countries of China, India, and the United States

[1], plus still 1 billion other people. Already, the chances of surviving these two judgements is less than 50%.

Estimates for Various DisastersThis 3.5 billion calculated above does not count the many other deaths which are not given numerical values. I will place some estimates here for the judgements where the number of deaths are not listed.Various WarsThe wars in Seal #2 may possibly include the Gog-Magog war which says it will take Israel 7 months to bury all of the dead foreign soldiers (Ezekiel 29:12). The Battle of Armageddon will be the largest in history and will involve European as well as Asian forces. I would guess probably at least a few million solders, and they basically all get wiped out when Jesus returns with his saints and angels (Revelation 19:21). So if you manage to avoid being drafted during these wars, maybe you have a better chance at surviving these battles. Starvation Many of the judgments will make it hard to find food and water. The destruction of sea life in Trumpet #2 and Bowl #2, freshwater life in Trumpet #3 and Bowl #3 will make it impossible to eat seafood, and the turning of sea and lake water to blood will probably make it hard or impossible to irrigate crops. I suspect they may invent a form of distillation which will make some water drinkable since people cannot survive more than 3 days without water, and life goes on for at least a few years under these conditions. However, it will probably be expensive and the poorest people will probably die from starvation or thirst. In Trumpet #3 it says many people die from the "bitter" water. In my article here, I suspect some water may be contaminated with sulphuric acid from a meteor strike.

The sun is also darkened by 1/3 in Trumpet #4 - this would again make it more difficult to grow crops. The economic collapse in Seal #3 would probably lead to at least some deaths from people who cannot afford to buy food.Currently in our world where things are going relatively well, 36 million people die each year of starvation [2]. In the Tribulation, this number will probably double or triple. If we assume say 70 million people per year die from lack of food in the Tribulation, that would total another 490 million deaths over 7 years. Our total is now up to around 4 billion deaths.Christian MartyrsThere are still all the Christian Martyrs to be accounted for. Beginning in Seal #5 the Antichrist will probably start to kill off the Christians who resist him. The beast (the Antichrist) "was allowed to fight against God's people and defeat them." (Revelation 13:7). Also "Everyone who refused to worship the idol of the beast was put to death."(Revelation 13:15). We know these people who refused to worship the Beast were Christians because "I also saw the souls of the people who had their heads cut off because they had told about Jesus and preached God's message. They were the same one who had not worshiped the beast or the idol, and they had refused to let its mark be put on their hands or foreheads."(Revelation 20:4). John sees a vision of a "large crowd with more people than could be counted, from every race, tribe, nation, and language" (Revelation 7:9) in heaven who had "gone through the great suffering and washed their robes in the blood of the lamb"(Revelation 7:14).Currently there are 2 billion people on earth who identify as Christian or Catholic [3]. A portion of those will be Raptured before the Tribulation.

Unfortunately, it will probably not even be 50%. According to Barna, only 9% of American "Christians" actually have a Biblical worldview [4]. This group only had to meet a few criteria: "defined as believing that absolute moral truth exists; the Bible is totally accurate in all of the principles it teaches; Satan is considered to be a real being or force, not merely symbolic; a person cannot earn their way into Heaven by trying to be good or do good works; Jesus Christ lived a sinless life on earth; and God is the all-knowing, all-powerful creator of the world who still rules the universe today."[4]. This is just the most basic outline of Christianity, yet only 9% of Americans (supposedly a "Christian nation") are actually Christian in their beliefs!. So there will most likely be plenty of people left on earth after the Rapture who thought they were Christian, yet were Christian in name only. Perhaps the Rapture will wake them up and they will take their faith more seriously, and will probably have a high chance of being martyred for it. There will also be many new Christian converts during the Tribulation.Let's assume that perhaps 30% of the left-behind Christians wake up and are martyred for their faith (the rest will probably follow the Antichrist and the false world religion - Revelation 13:8-15), and perhaps gain an extra 15% of new converts. That's 200 million raptured (10%) and so we are left with 1.8 billion "Christians" after the Rapture. Only 30% keep their faith (540 million), and 15% new converts (270 million) = 810 million Christians. Let's assume not all of them die - perhaps 5% (40 million) of these will escape the Antichrist and survive the 7 year Tribulation. This gives us a total of 770 million Christian martyrs. This would certainly match the "crowd too large to be counted" that John saw in his vision. These numbers are just my estimates, and there could be a larger number who are Raptured, or a larger number who convert after the Rapture.Various DisastersAlready, we are at 4.76 of 7 billion people dead during the Tribulation.

This still does not include the deaths of people from the earthquakes, hailstones, asteroids, and wildfires which make up the rest of the judgements. Even a relatively localized earthquake can cause massive destruction as we saw happen in Haiti in 2010. The Haiti earthquake in 2010 was estimated to cause between 50,000 and 300,000 deaths [5]. The earthquakes in the Tribulation will be worldwide and much worse than this one. I would guess probably 100 million dead from these earthquakes, and probably developed countries will do better than poor ones. This brings us up to 4.86 million deaths total in the Tribulation.The asteroids will probably be smaller than the ones in the movies Armageddon or Deep Impact, but they will still probably cause some deaths. There aren't really any good stats about deaths vs. asteroid impacts since asteroid impacts are quite rare. Probably the best stats we have are from one asteroid which exploded over Russia back in 1908 [6]. It was estimated as being "1,000 times as powerful as the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima". "The explosion knocked over an estimated 80 million trees covering 2,150 square kilometres (830 sq mi). It is estimated that the shock wave from the blast would have measured 5.0 on the Richter scale. An explosion of this magnitude is capable of destroying a large metropolitan area."[6]. This asteroid was only maybe a few "tens of meters" across - so perhaps as large as a football field. Maybe this will be the approximate size of the smaller meteors in Seal #6, which are described as "figs" (Revelation 6:13).

However, the asteroid described in the Trumpet #2 is called a "fiery mountain" (Revelation 8:8). This could be significantly larger than the one that hit Russia, but fortunately it lands in the ocean. It would probably cause a tsunami and depending on the exact size and impact location it could bring quite a bit of destruction. Let's assume perhaps another 500 million dead from the effects of the asteroids. That brings us up to about 5.4 billion dead from the whole Tribulation.Total Approximate Deaths During the TribulationBased on the Bible and analysis of the various wars, famines, disasters, and various other events of the Tribulation, I have estimated that the total number of deaths over the 7 year period will be approximately 5.4 billion people, assuming a starting population of 7 billion. This means you have about a 23% chance of making it through the Tribulation. This is not including the probably several million who will die from the various other disasters which we were unable to estimate, so it might even be lower than that. Your chances of surviving the Tribulation will probably be slightly higher if you do not get drafted into the military and are not a Christian.What Happens After The Tribulation?Congratulations - you have somehow managed to survive the Tribulation. But wait... there is one last thing you'll have to survive in order to make it into the Millennium (the time period of 1000 years after the Tribulation - Revelation 20:1-6). When Jesus comes back and sets up his kingdom on earth, he will judge all those who have survived. "When the Son of Man comes in his glory with all of his angels, he will sit on his royal throne. The people of all nations will be brought before him."(Matthew 15:31-32).

Here all the survivors of the Tribulation will be judged personally by Jesus. He will either say "My father has blessed you! Come and receive the kingdom that was prepared for you before the world was created."(Matthew 25:34) or he will say "Get away from me! You are under God's curse. Go into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels!"(Matthew 25:41). What will Jesus use as the judgement criteria? "When I was hungry, you gave me something to eat, and when I was thirsty you gave me something to drink. When I was a stranger, you welcomed me, and when I was naked, you gave me clothes to wear. When I was sick, you took care of me, and when I was in jail you visited me" (Matthew 25:25-36 and Matthew 10:40-42).So it seems that this judgement is not necessarily based on being a Christian. Instead, Jesus views people's actions during the Tribulation towards the persecuted Christians and the 144,000 special Jews as being done towards Himself. If you help them, it's like you helped Jesus, and the reward is you may enter the Millennium. If you did not help them, then you are thrown into the Lake of Fire, where the Antichrist, False Prophet, and eventually Satan and the demons will end up (Revelation 19:20 and 20:14-15). Interestingly, this type of judgement is part of the original Covenant that God made with Abraham: "I will bless anyone who blesses you (Israel), but I will put a curse on anyone who puts a curse on you (Israel)."(Genesis 12:3).We have estimated 1.6 billion Tribulation survivors.

The number who will be judged by Jesus will be much lower, as anyone who took the Mark of the Beast will be "tortured with fire and burning sulfur" (Revelation 14:10) which is probably the Lake of Fire. So since the majority of people may have taken the Mark, perhaps only 10% (160 million) of people managed to survive without the Mark during the Tribulation. Then, of that group perhaps only 50% (80 million) would have helped a Christian or Jew. So this 80 million, plus the perhaps 40 million Christian survivors (as estimated earlier) makes a total of 120 million people who would be allowed to live in the Millennium and repopulate the world. During this time these people will have kids and will be ruled under the government of Jesus.Total World Population at the Beginning of the MillenniumSo now if we see the chances of a person surviving not only the Tribulation, but the judgement afterwards, it decreases to 120 million out of 7 billion people, which is about 1.7%. 98.3% of the world's population will have been killed from the wars and disasters, or will be condemned to the lake of fire for taking the Mark of the Beast or not passing Jesus' judgement. Only 120 million will enter the Millennium under Jesus' rule. However, that is not the end of humanity. People will repopulate, and the world population in the Millennium may grow to dwarf what we experience now. Under the Millennium nature will be restored and it will be easier to grow food (Amos 9:13). People will also live longer and be able to have more kids in a lifetime (Isaiah 65:21-25). These two factors will allow the population to quickly recover and surpass the levels before the Tribulation.So why should you care?So what does all this have to do with you?

Besides being perhaps theoretically interesting to Christian end-times scholars, would any other people care? I think people should care. If you are a Christian now (and a real Christian - not one who is Christian in name only, but actually believes it and loves Jesus) then you don't have to worry about all of this. Jesus comes to take all the real Christians to heaven in the Rapture before the Tribulation begins. If you don't know for sure if you would be Raptured, now is a good time to think and pray about it and work on your relationship with Jesus. Then you can feel secure and not be afraid when there are disasters all around us, even before the Tribulation starts. If you are a Christian now, then you need to think about those around you who are not. If you have friends or family who are not Christian they will probably die during the Tribulation. It's important that you tell them now how to avoid it and accept Jesus as their saviour.If you're not a Christian, this should be a warning to you. There is only a small chance that you'll make it through the disasters of the Tribulation, and an even smaller chance of making it into the Millennium. If the Tribulation starts, there is a very high chance that you will die in the next 7 years. And if you're not a Christian when you die, then you will end up in hell forever. God doesn't want this to happen - God wants you to accept him today, before any judgements begin. Even if you don't make up your mind for Jesus until the Rapture happens, which means you may die from the disasters or be killed by the Antichrist, it is much better to believe in Jesus than to end up in hell. This is a warning that you need to think about what is important and to consider what may happen when you die - you might even die tomorrow. I believe the Tribulation is approaching quickly, and the Rapture could happen anytime. Please consider learning more about Jesus and how to be saved before it's too late. A couple of introductory articles I have written on how to follow Jesus are written here and here.

References[1] Wikipedia.org - List of Countries by Population
[2] Wikipedia.org - Starvation
[3] Wikipedia.org - World Religions: Largest Religions or Belief Systems By Number of Adherents
[4] Barna: Changes in Worldview Among Christians Over Past 13 Years
[5] Wikipedia.org - Casualties of the 2010 Haiti Earthquake
[6] Wikipedia.org - Tunguska Event

Source: http://zoeqa.com/questions/who_will_sur ... ation.html

Quasar92

All this could be happening but I'm in such a bad place. I hope I am not under gods curse but if u understood the type of person I am man, God has been so good but I just messed up. Unbeleif and thoughts of converting have filled my mind now Im starting to think anything I've witnessed from marvelous works isn't true and that's blasphemy! I'm so afraid I hope I'm not deemed unforgivable but as much as I try to beleive my mind cannot move any farther. Some people just aren't chosen and it hurts.

 

[Quasar92]

[The saints - Church] that us your supposition and it is incorrect.

Your posts are so mixed it it is impossible to reply to them Such a muddle. The early church, I repeat, tell us it is the Roman Empire and Emperor who will be removed, they knew that because Paul said he told them.

[

Let me see some Scriptural support for the meaningless opinion you freely propogate.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

You have made the statement, so it is for you to prove it scriptural as as Martin Luther said, "A negative cannot be proved", or something similar. Of course there are no scriptures that support that. However much you and others repeat that, it doesn't make it true.
Your teaching is less that 200 years old and you should read what Paul said to Timothy. 1 Tim 4:1

You are the one who offered your unsupported opinion and either you will support it with Scriptural facts or it is false.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

There you go again, it is up to you to show it is, not for anyone else to show it is not. You cannot of course.
Most US expositors are the result of being taught the Scofield teaching because when the Scofield bible was produced in the early 1900s it was given free to all the US bible colleges. And they taught it. problem with that is very few read scripture enough to understand it is incorrect. Some of us do.
Here in the UK more schools are discerning. Although I suspect the more liberal Baptist churches will go along with that, but I haven't checked so I don't know.

You are the one who denigrated Scofield and I responded to your opinion that such a statement was false. Don't try telling me I'm the one to disprove your false claims. It is up to you to support the statements you make! I have a copy of his 1965 edition, and it wasn't free!


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

The source is not in the bible. The source is Dallas Theological Seminary, as far as I can tell.

Enter "what is the source for the term tribulation," in a Google search enging and see how far off the mark your above statement is.


Quasar93

 

[Quasar92]

All this could be happening but I'm in such a bad place. I hope I am not under gods curse but if u understood the type of person I am man, God has been so good but I just messed up. Unbeleif and thoughts of converting have filled my mind now Im starting to think anything I've witnessed from marvelous works isn't true and that's blasphemy! I'm so afraid I hope I'm not deemed unforgivable but as much as I try to beleive my mind cannot move any farther. Some people just aren't chosen and it hurts.

My dear child: Have you obtained a copy of Charles Stanley's book, "Eternal Security," I urged you to get? Please go to Amazon and ask for a copy at your earliest opportunity. Meanwhile, read Psalm 23; and Jesus promises in John 3:16 ad in 10:27-29; together with what Paul wrote in Eph.1:13-14;.2:1-10 and Rom.10:9-10, which I believe will comfort you.

Your bro in Christ,


Quasar92

 

[David Kent]

Question 2 - the dead in Christ will be raised a millisecond (assumed) before them who are alive at the time are translated. Together all of the saints are caught up together in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

In relation to whether that happens before the 70th week begins or after - cannot be determined.

Jesus in the bible tells us when the saints would be raised. It would be on the last day.

• John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
• John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
• John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
• John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Martha also understood that.

• 
  John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Just as there could be no time before the first day, Genesis 1:5 there can be no time after the last day, only eternity.

The last day is also the day of judgement

• John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus in the bible tells us when the saints would be raised. It would be on the last day.

• John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
• John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
• John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
• John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Martha also understood that.

• 
  John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Just as there could be no time before the first day, Genesis 1:5 there can be no time after the last day, only eternity.

The last day is also the day of judgement

• John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

There is the resurrection in Revelation 20 for the Great White Throne judgement which would be the last day. There is also the resurrection/rapture not on the last day. And there is a resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints in Revelation 20:4-6 at the beginning of the millennium.

The resurrection in Revelation 20 for the great white throne judgement is for them not taking part in either (1) the resurrection/rapture or (2) the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints.

All of the verses have to be reconciled David. When Jesus spoke those words in the John 6, and the understanding that Martha had was the extent what the Jews knew at the time. Jesus spoke in ways they would understand - because the resurrection/rapture was not explained to them at that time - NONE of the verses you referenced address the the changing of the living at the time of the resurrection.

I have asked Jews (Judaism) this very question, as they also believe in the resurrection. What they said was they thought all of the living would suddenly die.... so that they would be resurrected as well.

The muslims believe that a cloud will come over the world and everyone will die, so that all will be resurrected for judgment day.

Only Christianity has the changing of the living into incorruptible eternal bodies, which is in 1thessalonians4:15-18. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[BABerean2]

There is the resurrection in Revelation 20 for the Great White Throne judgement which would be the last day. There is also the resurrection/rapture not on the last day. And there is a resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints in Revelation 20:4-6 at the beginning of the millennium.

The resurrection in Revelation 20 for the great white throne judgement is for them not taking part in either (1) the resurrection/rapture or (2) the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints.

All of the verses have to be reconciled David. When Jesus spoke those words in the John 6, and the understanding that Martha had was the extent what the Jews knew at the time.

The timing of the bodily resurrection and judgment event in John 5:27-30 is found below.

Verse 18 also contains wrath, reward, and destruction.

Rev 11:15　 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.　(How long is "forever"?)

Rev 11:16　 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,　

Rev 11:17　 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.　

Rev 11:18　 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
　

The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
This is proven by Christ returning in Revelation 16:15-16 and also returning in chapter 19.

.

 

[David Kent]

The timing of the bodily resurrection and judgment event in John 5:27-30 is found below.

Verse 18 also contains wrath, reward, and destruction.

Rev 11:15　 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.　(How long is "forever"?)

Rev 11:16　 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,　

Rev 11:17　 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.　

Rev 11:18　 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
　

The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
This is proven by Christ returning in Revelation 16:15-16 and also returning in chapter 19.

.

Yes of course. It is written within and without, unlike ordinary scrolls. The inside is how the church sees it and the outside as the world does.

 

[David Kent]

There is the resurrection in Revelation 20 for the Great White Throne judgement which would be the last day. There is also the resurrection/rapture not on the last day. And there is a resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints in Revelation 20:4-6 at the beginning of the millennium.

The resurrection in Revelation 20 for the great white throne judgement is for them not taking part in either (1) the resurrection/rapture or (2) the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints.

All of the verses have to be reconciled David. When Jesus spoke those words in the John 6, and the understanding that Martha had was the extent what the Jews knew at the time. Jesus spoke in ways they would understand - because the resurrection/rapture was not explained to them at that time - NONE of the verses you referenced address the the changing of the living at the time of the resurrection.

I have asked Jews (Judaism) this very question, as they also believe in the resurrection. What they said was they thought all of the living would suddenly die.... so that they would be resurrected as well.

The muslims believe that a cloud will come over the world and everyone will die, so that all will be resurrected for judgment day.

Only Christianity has the changing of the living into incorruptible eternal bodies, which is in 1thessalonians4:15-18. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Of course I don't believe any of that. All futurism teachings originate with Jesuit disinformation.

Revelation is a book written in signs, or figures or symbols Rev.1:1. You need to look at symbols throughout the prophesies including revelation. Once you have done that you may be able to understand Revelation. One writer , I can't remember his name, about 200 years or so ago, said that he could not understand Revelation till he read Gibbon's decline and fall of the Roman Empire and he saw all the symbols acted out in history. It was so accurate that he said the had Gibbon not been a mocker of Christianity, he would have thought it was a set up.

 

[Douggg]

Of course I don't believe any of that. All futurism teachings originate with Jesuit disinformation.

David, not but a few years back this forum was in turmoil because preterists took nearly every thread off track because of their disagreement with futurism. Which led to the tag system being implemented for threads. One of those tags is "for futurists only".

We haven't had to use the tags system as much anymore since the preterists have basically ceased their activity, forcing their view into all the threads.

Most of the posters in these threads are futurists.

If you want to advance another view than futurism, then please start a thread other than this one - which is obviously a futurist thread although not tagged as such.

 

[Douggg]

The timing of the bodily resurrection and judgment event in John 5:27-30 is found below.

Verse 18 also contains wrath, reward, and destruction.

Rev 11:15　 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.　(How long is "forever"?)

Rev 11:16　 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,　

Rev 11:17　 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.　

Rev 11:18　 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
　

The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
This is proven by Christ returning in Revelation 16:15-16 and also returning in chapter 19.

.

I agree that the chapters are not structured in Chronological order, but in the order John was presented Revelation according to the visions he saw and the things told him about those visions.

The verses you cited do not address 1thessalonians4:15-18 gathering unto the Lord, the translation of the living and the resurrection of the dead that takes place the same time. The rapture is Revelation 4:1.

If Revelation 4:1 is not the rapture, what would be the purpose, given John had already stated in Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet", to receive the prior (to Chapter 4) chapters of Revelation ?

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Then John was shown the visions of the end times, the seven years. The first three chapters are instructions by Jesus to the churches on how to behave until the time of his Second Coming.

 

[BABerean2]

I agree that the chapters are not structured in Chronological order, but in the order John was presented Revelation according to the visions he saw and the things told him about those visions.

The verses you cited do not address 1thessalonians4:15-18 gathering unto the Lord, the translation of the living and the resurrection of the dead that takes place the same time. The rapture is John 4:1.

If John 4:1 is not the rapture, what would be the purpose, given John had already stated in Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet", to receive the prior (to Chapter 4) chapters of Revelation ?

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Then John was shown the visions of the end times, the seven years. The first three chapters are instructions by Jesus to the churches on how to behave until the time of his Second Coming.

Based on the whole post, I think you meant to say that the rapture is Revelation 4:1, instead of John 4:1.
If that is what you meant, we have to remember that John describes events both on earth and in heaven after Revelation 4:1.

There is only one clear resurrection and then "rapture" passage in the Book of Revelation.


Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


Based on Revelation 1:20 the witnesses are a symbol of the Church, just as the Lamb is a symbol of Christ, and the dragon is a symbol of Satan. Nobody can deny that Paul describes the Church as an Olive tree made up of two types of branches in Romans 11.

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

.

 

[Douggg]

Based on the whole post, I think you meant to say that the rapture is Revelation 4:1, instead of John 4:1.

Thanks, I went back and fixed it.