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The transitional stinkweed
- Thread starter npetreley
- Start date
Nick, you are dead on accurate. Sometimes you wonder if evolutionists even understand what they themselves believe.
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I know.
Really? And how does it happen? I'm not asking about the genetic action, I'm asking how it HAPPENS.
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In case you missed it, post #36 has an explaination of what causes polyploidy, with links to further material. I suggest you go back and review the post and links.
I am still waiting for you to explain why polyploidy must be absent from lineages for you to count them as transitional.
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I already know the answers. Don't you? If not, then why are you in a field you cannot possibly hope to understand? If you do know the answers, why won't you simply answer the questions?
It's really quite easy, you know, and any layman can understand what's going on here. I could explain it in 25 words or less. But if others get the answers from an expert like you, it would eliminate the possibility that an uneducated moron like me has it all wrong.
So let me repeat the question. You accurately stated:
Can you give us some examples of HOW IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME, in layman's terms of how and when such events are observed, not in terms of the genetic mechanisms?
We can get to the genetics later if you want. Let's just see what it is we're really talking about here, first, and go from there.
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I doubt it. Otherwise, you wouldn't be so resistant to share them and show me up. Do you have any meat behind that bluster?
This from a computer programmer who thinks we all will get a third set of teeth naturally if we get old enough, and who also didn't understand basic biology of female reproduction.
I did. You keep asking how polyploid happens, and I explained it to you. Then you say that you don't what that answer, you want to know how polyploid happens.
Are you sure you're expressing yourself well enough?Well then put up or shut up. You assert that you know what is going on, but with out actually showing us the only conclusion one can make is that you are bluffing. I seriously doubt that you know what is going on. I cannot remember a single instance of you ever holding back your opinion. Now if you actually had some sort of biological background, we might be more willing to buy your bluff.
Ahh, but now you've changed your question. You were originally asking how it happens. Now you're asking how it is observed.
Polyploids are not selected for because they are polyploids, per se, but because polyploids tend to be more vigorous than the parent species. This is due to the fact that polyploidy magnifies the amount of gene product. (Haven't I already addressed this?)
With respect to crop plants, farmers found a plant in their fields that grew better (taller, faster, more productive, etc) than the rest. This plant was cultivated and eventually replaced the rest of them.
Fast forward 12,000 years when people start looking at the chromosomes of cultivated varieties and comparing them to wild varieties. They then realize that cultivated varieties have doubled, tripled, or quadrupled numbers of chromosomes than the wild one. That is how they observed polyploids. You can't determine one without a microscope. They also extend their surveys out to non-crop plants and discover that a surprising number of species have been produced by polyploidy. Furthermore, plant breeders continually produce novel breeds, many of which are found to be polyploids. Molecular genetic evidence also allows us to see the remnants ancient polyploid event even if much of the redundant DNA has been lost.
Now is that a satisfactory answer of how and when polyploidy is observed. If not, provide me with constructive feedback of where I lost you.
If you want to know more about the history of crop plants, read this paper.
Now, Nick, explain why polyploidy does not make a fossil transitional.
Sorry to do that, but I want to make sure you see it.
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Okay, then assume I don't know. That's fine with me.
Is there some other way you would know it happens all the time unless you observed it happening? I'm not talking about examining the plants with microscopes. I'm asking for a birds and the bees explanation of how this works.
I'm not interested in what farmers did after the plant got better through an event involving polyploids. What I want to hear from you is a simple explanation of the types of events that would explain how that plant got that way. What happened?
What is the connection between polyploids and cultivated plants versus wild plants? Why do the cultivated varieties have more chromosomes than wild varieties?
I never said it doesn't make a fossil transitional. But we'll never get to why I don't want to include polyploids until you start answering my questions in plain language instead of dancing around them with genetics and links to other sites.
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Nick, did you miss this explanation?
If not, WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU WANTING RUFUS TO EXPLAIN TO YOU?
If not, WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU WANTING RUFUS TO EXPLAIN TO YOU?
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No, why would there be. You cant have an observation with out observing it.
But that is about the only way to tell if an individual, variety, or species is polyploid or not. Now if you have some alternate method of detecting karyotype, I would be happy to hear it.
Let me repeat what I said in post #35.
Polyploids are the result of the failure of chromosomes to split during cell division. This can occur many ways.
- A gamete is produced by mitosis instead of meiosis.
- A gamete is derived from somatic cells which went through an S-phase (DNA replication) without going through a corresponding cellular division.
- Failure of chromosomes to separate in the anaphase of meiosis.
This occasionally happens naturally, and in plants it usually produces more vigorous individuals, which are prized in agriculture. It can also be produced by treating plants with certain chemicals that destroy the spindle fibers which separate homologous chromosomes.
Now if this isnt enough for you, please explain why.
By comparing the karyotype of domesticated crops to wild varieties we can easily tell that the domesticated versions were generated by polyploidy. The same is true by comparing wild species to one another.
Farmers select for vigorous, taller, more productive crops. As it so happens, polyploid plants offer such advantages. This is because genome duplication magnifies the amount of gene product. For instance tetraploid (4n) plants have twice the amount of growth factors that diploid (2n) plants have. This makes them grow faster and farmers like that.
Dancing? Ive answered your questions, multiple times no less, but I have received no comprehensive feedback for where I am losing you.
Since when does polyploidy not involve genetics? Its like asking me to explain gravity without using physics. I also linked to biology and botany textbook sites so that you might get a more comprehensive look at the material. How is any of this dancing?
Now, will you explain the relevance of polyploidy to your challenge about transitional fossils.
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yeah, actually it does. You still haven't explained why polyploidy should be excluded. That's both confusing as well as unclear .
And to that, I'd add the following adjectives: arbitrary , suspicious , and contrived .
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If you don't know how it happens, then how can you justify excluding transitional forms that exhibit the trait?
I mean, if you're so thoroughly uninformed about what polyploidy is, then upon what basis can you justifiably rule it out of any transitional sequence of fossils?
Anyone who, a priori, has decided to exclude fossils that exhibit polyploidy from counting as transitional has a lot to answer for. That person should not only be able to explain what the $%@#$ polyploidy is, and how it works, but they should also be able to give ample reason why they exclude such fossils in the first place.
Instead, this appears to be a case of Nick Petreley thumbing through an evolutionary textbook and picking a word at random. "Hmmm.....lessee.....polyploidy....that's a fun word to say....I'll use it in my next post. " Then, asking Jerry and Rufus to run around and provide him with explanations and definitions - like errand boys providing some kind of free educational service for the deliberately lazy.
(Jerry/Rufus - I know you guys are doing it more for the rest of us, providing the proper refutations and links so we can look the stuff up ourselves. But it sure seems that Nick's only goal here is to raise as many questions as possible, in the hopes of having you guys spend hours looking up the references. Which, of course, he'll respond to with even more wild claims and questions......
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