The Tragedy of the Reformation

[patricius79]

it seems like many don't know the actually facts about "the Reformation" in terms of moral and doctrinal chaos

here is the testimony of the reformers themselves and other contemporaries and scholars:

Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: The Protestant Revolt: Its Tragic Initial Impact

Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: Martin Luther's Regrets as to the Relative Failure of the "Reformation" (Piety, Morals & Inconsistencies Regarding Replacing Bishops With Princes)

Dave Armstrong writes:

Luther informs us that his followers used to say, "If we are not saved on account of our good works, why should we give alms to the poor?" [Walch. VIII. 2683] . . .
Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: Martin Luther's Regrets as to the Relative Failure of the "Reformation" (Piety, Morals & Inconsistencies Regarding Replacing Bishops With Princes)

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Thanks in part to the Protestant reformation we no longer have such a close wedding of Church and state and thus no longer have to put up with inquisitions and crusades. Now people in the West can choose their own religion according to their conscious without worrying about being tortured or murdered.

 

[patricius79]

Thanks in part to the Protestant reformation we no longer have such a close wedding of Church and state and thus no longer have to put up with inquisitions and crusades. Now people in the West can choose their own religion according to their conscious without worrying about being tortured or murdered.

isn't that ironic given all the persecution, torture, and murder perpretrated through the "reformation", a time when immorality increased?

 

[Ishraqiyun]

isn't that ironic given all the persecution, torture, and murder perpretrated through the "reformation", a time when immorality increased?

There were a lot of petty tyrants who were involved with or made use of the reformation. It destroyed the hegemonic power of any single Church over Europe though. That paved the way for freedom of religion and the disestablishment of religion. In other words Caesar and Church got a divorce.

 

[patricius79]

There were a lot of petty tyrants who were involved with or made use of the reformation. It destroyed the hegemonic power of any single Church over Europe though. That paved the way for freedom of religion and the disestablishment of religion. In other words Caesar and Church got a divorce.

interesting. I suspect there might be a lot of mythology in that idea, though


Preserved Smith (S)

• If any one still harbors the traditional prejudice that the early Protestants were more liberal, he must be undeceived. Save for a few splendid sayings of Luther, confined to the early years when he was powerless, there is hardly anything to be found among the leading reformers in favor of freedom of conscience. As soon as they had the power to persecute they did. (Smith, 177)
  Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: The Protestant Inquisition: "Reformation" Intolerance and Persecution

Luther on the Protestant preachers:

"They lead such a bad life . . . that they do more harm than good." [Epp. ed. Aurifaber. II. 191]

 

[Ishraqiyun]

interesting. I suspect there might be a lot of mythology in that idea, though

I'm talking about how things are now. The Protestant reformation moved things in that direction. I have no doubt that there were many Protestant political and spiritual leaders who were just as bigoted and violent as before but even they inadvertently weakened the system that made the persecution possible. Once there were hundreds and then thousands of denominations in Europe it was much harder to centralize things the way they were in the Dark Ages. Eventually we arrived here where we have separation of Church and state. That wouldn't have happend without the Protestant reformation.

 

[Biblicist]

[FONT=&quot]The Tragedy of the Reformation
[/FONT]
Unlike our Roman Catholic friend who seems to consider that the endemic atrocities that were committed by Rome were either justified or that they were simply misunderstood; I would think that most believers who are not of her denomination will openly admit that the Church over the past 500 years has certainly not been perfect.

We are more than prepared to not only acknowledge the abuses and outright wickedness that has occurred within the Church; unlike our friend most of us are undoubtedly prepared to not only recognise where we have sinned but that we are prepared to address these issues front on – this is the primary difference between the approach by patricius79 and others of her denomination who are prepared to ignore their denominations sins which has been more than evidenced by many of her denominations leaders who have been utilising spin doctoring over the recent and ongoing sexual abuse scandals within her denomination.

Do we really need to go to those links that were supplied as undoubtedly most of us could add our own in as well along with a few that very few know about outside of our own circles.

If the great Reformation had not of occurred it is doubtful that Europe would have tolerated the stench that was coming from within the imperial religion so in reality Rome should be thankful that it occurred. Undoubtedly her denomination would have continued to see many men enter into their seminaries with the intention of preying on defenceless children.

 

[new_wine]

A simple question.

Do you believe that God is in control of what happens in the history of the world?

it seems like many don't know the actually facts about "the Reformation" in terms of moral and doctrinal chaos

here is the testimony of the reformers themselves and other contemporaries and scholars:

Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: The Protestant Revolt: Its Tragic Initial Impact

Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: Martin Luther's Regrets as to the Relative Failure of the "Reformation" (Piety, Morals & Inconsistencies Regarding Replacing Bishops With Princes)

Dave Armstrong writes:

Luther informs us that his followers used to say, "If we are not saved on account of our good works, why should we give alms to the poor?" [Walch. VIII. 2683] . . .
Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: Martin Luther's Regrets as to the Relative Failure of the "Reformation" (Piety, Morals & Inconsistencies Regarding Replacing Bishops With Princes)

 

[Biblicist]

The Tragedy of the Reformation

New wine (#8)

Do you believe that God is in control of what happens in the history of the world?

Your requestion is certainly reasonable enough but we need to remember that for God to be in control that he must intervene and/or put in place both events and individuals that will allow his purposes to arise.

With my comment that the Europeans would have eventually abolished the imperial religion if the Reformation had not of occurred this can in part be evidenced by their treatment in England in the 1500’s and later on in France in the 1790’s, let alone with Europes willingness to adopt the Reformation at least as a means of moral reform if nothing else.

The opinion that this imperial religion had become a stench was not merely held by the Christians but by non-Christians as well; the Reformation which was undoubtedly instigated by the hand of God has allowed the Roman denomination to continue on until the Lord returns and this will also allow it to fulfil the prophecies about its future in the last days.

So yes, God is certainly in control but this does not mean that he does not intervene or plan the events of mankind.

 

[Monseigneur_Gentilhomme]

If you are going to quote someone, you might quote actual experts. Anyone can have a blog, doesn't means much coming from some guy with a blogger account.

Also, as a protestant I could easily point to the problems in the Medieval church and the post-renaissance church concerning the unfair distribution of bishoprics, children of priests, princes being ordained for political reasons, etc... all of which are mentioned by Thomas Moore and Erasmus. Also, Protestants were not the first nor the last to split from roman catholicism.

I personally find that the strongest argument Catholics can use is the notion of apostolic succession through bishops. Even the most liberal catholic scholar (who would deny the deny the idea that there has always been a pope as their is today like most historians) cannot deny that there is a clearly historical record going back to the 1st century of people who are identified as bishops who profess orthodox theology. That doesn't mean each bishop in the history of the church has been orthodox, but it means at all times in the west since Christ there has been at least 1 person identifiable as a bishop who professes orthodox theology broadly defined (even by protestants). That is an argument most protestants are not prepared to counter and even I struggle with given even today there are bishops in the RCC who are sympathetic to Luther and Calvin.

 

[Anoetos]

Judging by comments he has made both as a professor at Tubingen and also while pope, the current pontiff would appear to be one of those people with at least some appreciation and respect for Luther.

Zenit

 

[Willtor]

it seems like many don't know the actually facts about "the Reformation" in terms of moral and doctrinal chaos

here is the testimony of the reformers themselves and other contemporaries and scholars:

Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: The Protestant Revolt: Its Tragic Initial Impact

Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: Martin Luther's Regrets as to the Relative Failure of the "Reformation" (Piety, Morals & Inconsistencies Regarding Replacing Bishops With Princes)

Dave Armstrong writes:

Luther informs us that his followers used to say, "If we are not saved on account of our good works, why should we give alms to the poor?" [Walch. VIII. 2683] . . .
Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: Martin Luther's Regrets as to the Relative Failure of the "Reformation" (Piety, Morals & Inconsistencies Regarding Replacing Bishops With Princes)

I read the first article. I am doubtful of his scholarship. Not that he's totally wrong, mind you. But it's a rather incomplete picture. I don't think the era had a particularly high moral bar, and from the quotes it looks like the Reformers didn't particularly distinguish themselves. Likewise, I note that his sources for the alleged morality of the previous century come only from the time of the reformation. I would like to hear such high-minded ideas of the 15th century coming from people of the 15th century. Otherwise, it sounds a lot like people today who remember a "purer" time, when the reality is a little bit more complex.

The article reads like the Catholic version of the more subtle kind of propaganda I used to read from Protestant sources (except, the Protestant ones were against Catholicism). In the best cases, there were no overt untruths, but one still got the sense that one was reading propaganda.

I also dislike ellipsis in quotes.

 

[Monseigneur_Gentilhomme]

Judging by comments he has made both as a professor at Tubingen and also while pope, the current pontiff would appear to be one of those people with at least some appreciation and respect for Luther.

Zenit

He was very influenced by Barth.