The Toronto Blessing dog leash video...where is it from?

[Child of JC]

I can assume God deals with Todd Bentley's sin the same way as He deals with all of us..."Come, let us reason together..."
Our sin does not disqualify us from anything (unless we choose to remain in it). God's love, mercy, grace, are all displayed in the repentant sinner. Rick Joyner is walking Todd through reconciliation. Now then, why can't those who have been forgiven much, forgive him and accept that he made mistakes. There's a bigger story than Todd's mistakes; there's also the story of how the people respond to him as a sinner.
Whoa....way off topic....

 

[Yitzchak]

I can assume God deals with Todd Bentley's sin the same way as He deals with all of us..."Come, let us reason together..."
Our sin does not disqualify us from anything (unless we choose to remain in it). God's love, mercy, grace, are all displayed in the repentant sinner. Rick Joyner is walking Todd through reconciliation. Now then, why can't those who have been forgiven much, forgive him and accept that he made mistakes. There's a bigger story than Todd's mistakes; there's also the story of how the people respond to him as a sinner.
Whoa....way off topic....

I'm surprised that these "Christian Gossip lovers " don't start a "Christian " tabloid. They could call it the Christian enquirer because inquiring Christians want to know about all the gossip. They could have their stories just like the enquirer complete with innuendos , hidden cameras and bizarre stories of back room meetings with space aliens. I guess it is the price that goes with being well known. Unfortunately the church world is not exempt. It is everything from " did you see what they were wearing ? " to " did you hear they bought a lottery ticket at the 7-11 store ? ". Whatever sells magazines or in this case whatever gets them a lot of attention for spreading gossip.

I happen to think that Bentley does not owe an explanation to everyone and their second cousin. He owes an explanation to those directly involved and to Rick Joyner and the leadership team who is working with him. He made his public statements and apologies which was more than what the Christian community deserved.

These people who feel that they have a right to a running commentary on other people's lives are out of line. It is actually an amazing and arrogant extreme. I suppose they also think that they should be consulted on who the new Pope should be ? Funny thing is the baptist church down the street from us found a new Pastor and had a ceremony to put him in as the new pastor and in the whole process they never called me and consulted me about what rumors about him I have heard or what criticisms I could brainstorm about him.

The problem will not be resolved until people repent of being a busybody about things. of all of these critic s of Bentley , has even one of them even claimed to have Bentley as their pastor or to be related to his ministry in any way. These are complete outsiders who have a busybody spirit and visions of grandeur that they are now holding the authority of the apostle Paul to publically embarrass Bentley to the Christian community. All of this with never having met Bentley or been involved in any way with him. And all of this without holding any office in the church which would place them in a place to speak into Bentley's life.

Bottom Line. We are dealing with busybody gossips and we know what the scripture says about them.

 

[PinkSapphire007]

AMEN Yitz! SO totally right on!

 

[Yitzchak]

To the opening poster , have you tried writing to the youtube poster of the video ?

 

[apocalypto]

To the opening poster , have you tried writing to the youtube poster of the video ?

The duck on your post, did it turn up at yonder assemblage?

 

[Yitzchak]

The duck on your post, did it turn up at yonder assemblage?

It was just wandering around in someone's yard and I was driving by and stopped and fed it some bread. It is not unusual to have some wild ducks around here. there are usually a few hundred that fly around and usually end up at water spots like the local lake. What is unusual is that it is still here in the middle of the winter. We live far enough north that it gets pretty cold here sometimes. The temperature a few weeks back was minus 23 with a wind chill of minus 40. I guess it is one tough duck.




.

 

[Prizm]

Nor does it make it approved by, sanctioned by, or anything by the leaders of the meeting.

They cannot be held responsible for the lifestyle choices made be people who come to an open meeting. There is no evidence or even a suggestion that the leashed guy was doing it "in the Spirit" or actually, that they were even Christian people.

Well, the lady in the video (perhaps one of the pastor's wives?) commented as she filmed the guy on a leash "It reminds me of the old hymn: Where He leads, I will follow". And behind him is someone else that appears to be on a leash.
No, there's no evidence that he was in the Spirit, or even that he is a christian - but then there's no evidence that any of those people in the video are either. For all we know, they're all unsaved and come to church just to manifest their "lifestyle".

According to the February 1996 issue of Charisma magazine,

“The issue centers in part on the unusual animal-like behavior — such as roaring or barking — that is sometimes manifested during renewal meetings at the Toronto church. Wimber said Arnott and his staff repeatedly were warned not to promote, encourage or theologize the animal behavior and the accompanying sounds” (pg. 12)

Interesting. Was this a fairly large article on the Toronto Blessing in general, or was the focus just on the Wimber/Arnott issue? I'd be interested in obtaining a copy.

To the opening poster , have you tried writing to the youtube poster of the video ?

I can give it a shot. Though that guy is russian and doesn't seem to speak english, so maybe I can see who else has uploaded it.

 

[hopeinGod]

Very true, Yitz, yet, at the same time, I do believe strongly that within the Church there exists a tendency to grow toxic, no matter the setting. Toxic faith has brought a lot of Christians to the bottom, desperate, depressed, and even suicidal.

Understanding the elements that cause this sort of poison, we are only beginning to recognize and speak to. It is not so easy just to blame everything on the fallen nature of man. We must be willing to inspect our accepted patterns and doctrines for influences that bring about this sickness.

Forgiveness is only a start. We must learn from these experiences, which, sadly, we aren't.
Dave

 

[Just4Jesus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CjAKq5Okf8

So most people here would have seen this footage by now (well ok, this video is a funny version of it), but I'm really interested in finding more information on this church.

In the original video, a lady says "They think Toronto's something, wait till they come to Boston!". Does anyone know anything about this Boston church? Who was the pastor? What was preached that made them decide to act like animals? The whole era of the Toronto Blessing and Pensacola Outpouring had some weird manifestations, but this one church seems to have been the weirdest.

I'd love some more information.

Disgusting. I have a better one for you to see if you are interested. I do not want to debate. But this is one of the reasons I am no longer a part of the Charismatic movement. I was raised pentecostal and I am in no place to judge. I have seen some things done in the name of God that has made me step back and really discern what is God and what is not. God is no author of confusion.
1 Corinthians 14:33

King James Version (KJV)

33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.)




Lord help us all.

 

[hopeinGod]

Disgusting. I have a better one for you to see if you are interested. I do not want to debate. But this is one of the reasons I am no longer a part of the Charismatic movement. I was raised pentecostal and I am in no place to judge. I have seen some things done in the name of God that has made me step back and really discern what is God and what is not. God is no author of confusion.
1 Corinthians 14:33

King James Version (KJV)

33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.)




Lord help us all.

Many, many believers who love the Lord deeply and know they will never lose their faith in Christ, have lost "faith" in extremist groups and their doctrines. But then, that's not where our hearts are to be.

Instead, we must realize when it is we are leaning on the arm of the flesh rather than God's. It's hard, at times, especially when we see those who we respect doing ridiculous things, speaking error, and striving for fame.

I want to be where the Spirit of the Lord is, not in anything churchy, religious, or stagnant. Where to find that place, however, has remained a mystery to me for a long time. And so, I maintain some consistency in prayer and Bible study, while I visit assemblies on occasion. No gathering has yet proven to be genuinely anointed.
Dave

 

[RisingSpirit]

...

I want to be where the Spirit of the Lord is, not in anything churchy, religious, or stagnant. ...

an old AOG friend at work had to act out how stagnant my Presbyterian church was.

We're not that dead. we're just not into that much entertainment. Just more traditional.

 

[Yitzchak]

Very true, Yitz, yet, at the same time, I do believe strongly that within the Church there exists a tendency to grow toxic, no matter the setting. Toxic faith has brought a lot of Christians to the bottom, desperate, depressed, and even suicidal.

Understanding the elements that cause this sort of poison, we are only beginning to recognize and speak to. It is not so easy just to blame everything on the fallen nature of man. We must be willing to inspect our accepted patterns and doctrines for influences that bring about this sickness.

Forgiveness is only a start. We must learn from these experiences, which, sadly, we aren't.
Dave

I definitely believe in and practice the "meat and potatoes " of the Christian faith. These animal noises are really irrelevant one way or the other when it comes to the essentials of the faith. I personally have never felt led to manifest the Holy Spirit by making animal noises. But I have attended mostly Spirit filled and Pentecostal churches for around 27 years now and I don't see myself in a position to mock or put down strange manifestations, considering that supernatural tongues is also strange to many.

I have been knocked unconscious by The Holy Spirit several times, had prophetic words given to me by others and given prophetic words , operated in the word of knowledge , etc. I don't think that the sole measure can be how dignified a manifestation of the Spirit is. On most of these details , the scripture is completely silent with the exception of general principles. Those general principles , are applied to these things in a way that really stretches the issue where it feels like trying to make something fit because someone has a preconceived conclusion and wants scriptural support to back their position.

With that said , it is at least possible that some of what is discussed is the manifestation of demon spirits which manifest in a person when they get around a spirit filled meeting. Another possibility is that it is just psychological or to put it in Biblical terms , the soul of a person manifesting.
Just because someone says it is God , does not make it so.

Also trying to argue from the standpoint that some of the people who manifested live sinful inconsistent lives proves very little. Since the same argument can be made about the church in general. With the backsliden state of the modern north American church , it is not hard to find inconsistencies. The scriptural precedent of the Corinthian church in Bible times shows that it is very possible for unusual manifestations of the Spirit which are genuine to take place in people who have lives that are a mess.

My personal view is that there is very little value to judging these things. It was the judgment call of the leadership that was present at those meetings. Whether they got it right or wrong , there is little value to me trying to discern it based on second and third hand information. As I said , when it comes to the basics of the faith , it is irrelevant anyway. These things are not the basis of determining the need for deliverance from demons and neither are they the measure of whether the Holy Spirit is really present in these meetings.

I agree with what Simon peter has frequently posted on here regarding people's concerns about Todd Bentley, Benny Hinn, the Toronto outpouring , etc. We should not get bogged down in these side issues of specific moral failings. Clearly those type of immoral practices are not condoned by scripture and getting into all the details of who repented of what and who said what is not edifying. Rather we should play the role of a Berean and examine these things carefully in light of scripture.

As for what lessons we should learn. As I already said , the manifestations are a side issue and I don;t think we should waste a lot of time trying to learn lessons out of those issues. There are however , important issues that arise out of these ministries and outpourings that we could set our self to examining before the Lord with a sincere conscience.

 

[hopeinGod]

Clearly those type of immoral practices are not condoned by scripture and getting into all the details of who repented of what and who said what is not edifying. Rather we should play the role of a Berean and examine these things carefully in light of scripture..

YOu seemed to have answered what I was getting at. As I see it, there is very little Scriptural balance within the Spirit filled communities. They tend to lead in the same WOF-like directions and esteem the entire Bible less than they do the New Testament alone, viewed through the same limiting lenses. Oh, they will pick out the best Psalms and Proverbs that support their views of good, but, as I have seen, the OT is so little exposed to such believers. It's a failing and one that often creates imbalances to the extreme.

There's more that I can write but I have to get to work.
Dave

 

[Yitzchak]

YOu seemed to have answered what I was getting at. As I see it, there is very little Scriptural balance within the Spirit filled communities. They tend to lead in the same WOF-like directions and esteem the entire Bible less than they do the New Testament alone, viewed through the same limiting lenses. Oh, they will pick out the best Psalms and Proverbs that support their views of good, but, as I have seen, the OT is so little exposed to such believers. It's a failing and one that often creates imbalances to the extreme.

There's more that I can write but I have to get to work.
Dave

I believe in building doctrine based upon the whole counsel of scripture.

I was taught my first week as a Christian that the Bible never contradicts but there are places where it seems to contradict. Those places where it seems to contradict are a clue to us that we need to dig deeper and seek God for understanding rather than just taking a shallow first impression approach to the scriptures.

Even the law had places where one had to choose which command to follow because sometimes two commands would contradict. Jesus mentioned this when correcting the Pharisees concerning healing on the sabbath. The law of circumcision given by God said that a male child must be circumcised on the 8th day. But if that day fell upon the sabbath , they had to choose which law to follow because performing a circumcision on the sabbath was a clear violation of the Sabbath. if they waited until the Sabbath was over , then they would circumcising on the 9th day.

This passage is the context of the often quoted verse to not judge according to sight.....A circumstance where one law of God is set apart by another law of God.Which should not be difficult for us to understand. An ambulance goes faster than the speed limit without and concern of receiving a speeding ticket. In our own legal system we have the same concept. The higher law overrules the lesser law. It does not undo the speed limit , it is simply an exception. yet in the church , large numbers of people are unaware that God sometimes makes exceptions to his rules/ laws for the sake of a higher law. Judge not according to sight or as we discussed here already , be a Berean and dig a little deeper to see what is really going on.

Joh 7:22 Because of this Moses has given you circumcision; (not that it is of Moses, but of the fathers); and on a sabbath, you circumcise a man.
Joh 7:23 If a man receives circumcision on a sabbath, that the Law of Moses is not broken, are you angry with Me because I made a man whole and healthy on a sabbath?
Joh 7:24 Do not judge according to sight, but judge righteous judgment.

Here is another verse with a similar concept....

Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

This principle of a higher law over ruling the lower law applies to more than just the Sabbath. It was the principle that was behind the Good Samaritan story. The higher law was love....

Luk 10:27 And answering, he said, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength," and with all your mind, and "your neighbor as yourself." Deut. 6:5; Lev. 19:18
Luk 10:28 And He said to him, You have answered rightly; do this, and you shall live.
Luk 10:29 But desiring to justify himself, he said to Jesus, And who is my neighbor?
Luk 10:30 And taking it up, Jesus said, A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell in with plunderers, who both stripping him and laying on blows, went away, leaving him being half dead.
Luk 10:31 But by a coincidence, a certain priest was going on that road; and seeing him, he passed on the opposite side.
Luk 10:32 And in the same way, a Levite, also being at the place, coming and seeing him, he passed on the opposite side.
Luk 10:33 But a certain traveling Samaritan came upon him, and seeing him, he was filled with pity.
Luk 10:34 And coming near, he bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. And putting him on his own animal, he brought him to an inn and cared for him.
Luk 10:35 And going forth on the morrow, taking out two denarii, he gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, Care for him, and whatever more you spend, on my return I will repay to you.
Luk 10:36 Who, then, of these three seems to you to have become a neighbor to the one having fallen among the plunderers?
Luk 10:37 And he said, The one doing the deed of mercy with him. Then Jesus said to him, Go, and you do likewise.

This habit of some of taking a proof text out of context in order to accuse some ministries of being out of order is nothing short of true legalism. It is legalism in it's truest form. Taking the letter of the law in order to enslave and curtail people's freedom in Christ rather than taking the spirit of the law that supports the building up of people in the Lord.



just my opinion.....

 

[hopeinGod]

This past weekend I went to the Ligonier's conference held in Orlando, FL after winning two free passes from radio 570 AM by being one of the first two callers. Normal cost was $169 per person for the three day event. I went to see Ravi Zacharias primarly, where 5000 believers met in a huge Baptist church. The messages were biblically sound, but the spirit of the gathering was not worshipful, but rather very religious. Not one moment was spent to just stand there to wait on the Lord, to show our combined desire for His presence.

Instead, old hymns were sung, then we sat down. Not at any time was the Holy Spirit present, and yet, the talks I heard were spot on. The attitude was more indicative of the worship of the letter, rather than the Person of Christ, and so we all lost on that score, although, as I write, the messages were right.

Very good insight, Yitz, on the higher law.