The topic of sin in 1 John.

[Mankin]

1 John 1:8-10 declares that we are liars if we claim that we do not sin but 1 John 3:5-10 declares that if we are Christians we must not continue to sin. These two ideas seem to be in conflict with each other, for we are liars if we say we do not sin but we must not continue to sin. (I'm not saying this is my opinion I'm just providing an initial impression one can develop.)

How do you interpret these two texts? I would like to hear some of your thoughts regarding this matter.

 

[DArceri]

1 John 1:8-10 declares that we are liars if we claim that we do not sin but 1 John 3:5-10 declares that if we are Christians we must not continue to sin. These two ideas seem to be in conflict with each other, for we are liars if we say we do not sin but we must not continue to sin. (I'm not saying this is my opinion I'm just providing an initial impression one can develop.)

How do you interpret these two texts? I would like to hear some of your thoughts regarding this matter.

Briefly:
1 John 1:8-10 is talking about the self righteous. (note:Christ's Spirit will reveal how much of a sinner we truly are).
1 John 3:5-10 is dealing with the work of the Holy Spirit within those who are 'in-Christ'. (Sanctification process). One cannot continue to go to the bars and have premartital sex if the Spirit of Christ is within you. If you do, then Christ never made Himself known (revealed Himself) to you.

 

[sungaunga]

we all sin, that's absolutely clear when John says we are liars if we say otherwise. When John says no one who abides in him "sins" it means, that we don't have a lifestyle of "Lawlessness." A Lifestyle of sin. If you recall, John in verse 3:4 says sin is lawlessness. Its literally meaning that you're living a life as if there is no law [spiritually]. As a Christian, we do not live that kind of life. We all fail and fail miserably at times. But it's not some kind of a habitual pattern of sinful life we're engaged in.

John says in v10 if you practice righteousness, you're of God, if you don't you're not. Plain and simple. In fact, John says by that it will be obvious who is a believer and who is not. Put it all together, we know we are all sinners, and we sin. But are you striving to live a holier and sanctified life? 2 COR 7. Always remember it's not the perfection in ones life, but the direction.

As Paul says, "not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on..."

 

[MrPolo]

Regarding the latter, when we sin we are for that moment departing from our Christianity, and we cannot rightly call ourselves as being "Christian" when we are sinning, no? Christians are those who should conquer sin...the passage is more of an exhortation. All that being said, it is conceivable that a person so immersed and focused on Christ can conquer sin even in this world. That may be extremely rare in history, but God's grace can move mountains! I'm still a lonnnnng way off....

 

[sungaunga]

well Mr. Polo, I respectfully disagree. I do believe that when you sin, it grieves the Holy Spirit yes, but nevertheless, you are still a child of God. I'm saying you're still a Christian. That's why we're chastened. If what you're saying is taken literally, For a Christian who has been truly saved, who dies while sinning, is sent to eternal hell. For how can a person go to Heaven without being a Chrisitan?

I also do not think anyone in this world, past, now or future, will ever "conquer" sin to a degree where they don't sin anymore. Not while we're living in this fallen flesh. Now I totally do agree that some people are actually "holier" then others. But not to perfection.

" if we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us"

Until we are given a glorified body along with our glorified soul which is currently in us. In other words, it's going to be a stuggle, until that day we see Christ. Paul uses the analogy of a runner in a race.

"not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on...I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; "

and I believe we will truly achieve Christlikeness, in the ultimate sense, as much a glorified human being will be like deity, is when we see our Lord Jesus Christ.

"we know that when he appears, we will be like Him"

 

[LST 1154]

We were all born in sin; Psalm 51:5, "For I was born a sinner-- yes, from the moment my mother conceived me." So we were born in sin and nothing can be done about it. We will be sinners forever, we cannot stop being sinners so we might as well enjoy it right? Too bad God is powerless to do anything about our sinful nature isn't it. Boo hoo we simply must sin because sinners can only do one thing and that is sin. Sinners cannot do righteousness. We are trapped until we die in these sinful bodies that are bent toward sin.

Now wouldn't it be wonderful if somehow God could send Someone to be a perfect sacrifice and in His death defeat His enemy the devil? Perhaps "before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes." (Eph 1:4) Holy? Without fault? NO, sorry we are just sinners. We could be born again, born from above, not from below, then maybe He could fill us with His Holy Spirit who could empower us to live above our glands and above our sinful desires. He could entirely sanctify our body, soul and spirit and we could be completely victorious over the devil EVERY time (1 Cor 10:13). Nope it's just a pipe dream, remember we are just powerless sinners driven by our organs and by our sinful desires. Forget that the scriptures say that "greater is He who is in us than he who is in the world." Boo hoo, woe is us.

The above is exactly what the enemy wants us to believe. So what is the truth? "...we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us." Romans 8:37. We can live above sin, 1 John 3:6, "Whoever abides in Him does not sin." We cannot sin! 1 John 3:9, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

LST 1154

 

[MrPolo]

well Mr. Polo, I respectfully disagree. I do believe that when you sin, it grieves the Holy Spirit yes, but nevertheless, you are still a child of God. I'm saying you're still a Christian.

I wasn't really asserting anything different if I was not clear.

 

[holyrokker]

1 John 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Notice that the verb isn't in the present tense. It's in the present perfect, which refers to something prior to the present.

 

[mannysee]

Mankin,

There are two groups addressed in this letter.
1. Gnostics and 2. Christians.
Search out some good articles on this and you will resolve your questions.

 

[holyrokker]

We were all born in sin; Psalm 51:5, "For I was born a sinner-- yes, from the moment my mother conceived me." So we were born in sin and nothing can be done about it. We will be sinners forever, we cannot stop being sinners so we might as well enjoy it right? Too bad God is powerless to do anything about our sinful nature isn't it. Boo hoo we simply must sin because sinners can only do one thing and that is sin. Sinners cannot do righteousness. We are trapped until we die in these sinful bodies that are bent toward sin.

LST 1154

Psalm 51:5 doesn't teach that humanity is born sinful. It doesn't even teach that David was born sinful.

It is a song of repentance. David is expressing, with strong language, the anguish of his guilt.

Notice the personal pronouns used:

blot out my transgressions
Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity
cleanse me from my sin
For I know my transgressions
my sin is ever before me
Against you, you only, have I sinned

It is obvious that David is accepting full responsibility for his actions. He is not attempting to pass his sin off on a pre-existing condidtion.

Also notice the wording of verse 5

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.

This is not a doctrinal statement of inherited sin. It doesn't even imply that David himself inherited a sin nature.

David is utilizing "hyperbole" - a standard poetic practice of exaggerating a statement. The purpose is to express intense emotions, or to make a strong empression upon the reader, and should not be taken literally.
A common American hybole is "I'm so hungry, I could eat a horse".

David again uses this technique in verse 7:

Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Surely David isn't creating a doctrine of cleansing from sin in this statement.

An interesting article on Psalm 51:5 can be found here: http://www.pinpointevangelism.com/li...liamMurray.pdf A Perspective on Psalm 51:5 by William P. Murray, Jr.​

 

[LST 1154]

Psalm 51:5 doesn't teach that humanity is born sinful. It doesn't even teach that David was born sinful.

It is a song of repentance. David is expressing, with strong language, the anguish of his guilt.

Notice the personal pronouns used:

blot out my transgressions
Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity
cleanse me from my sin
For I know my transgressions
my sin is ever before me
Against you, you only, have I sinned

It is obvious that David is accepting full responsibility for his actions. He is not attempting to pass his sin off on a pre-existing condidtion.

Also notice the wording of verse 5

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.

This is not a doctrinal statement of inherited sin. It doesn't even imply that David himself inherited a sin nature.

David is utilizing "hyperbole" - a standard poetic practice of exaggerating a statement. The purpose is to express intense emotions, or to make a strong empression upon the reader, and should not be taken literally.
A common American hybole is "I'm so hungry, I could eat a horse".

David again uses this technique in verse 7:

Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Surely David isn't creating a doctrine of cleansing from sin in this statement.

An interesting article on Psalm 51:5 can be found here: http://www.pinpointevangelism.com/li...liamMurray.pdf A Perspective on Psalm 51:5 by William P. Murray, Jr.​

OK, then we were not born sinners but became sinners when we first sinned. Regardless we have at some time in our lives sinned, some more some less but all have sinned. But we are not supposed to continue to live in sin. God will give us power to live above sin. We may not be 100% sinless but we will certainly sin-less.

LST 1154

 

[holyrokker]

OK, then we were not born sinners but became sinners when we first sinned. Regardless we have at some time in our lives sinned, some more some less but all have sinned. But we are not supposed to continue to live in sin. God will give us power to live above sin. We may not be 100% sinless but we will certainly sin-less.

LST 1154

AMEN!

 

[Elife3]

For 1 John 1:10, that means that we have sinned and truthfully, Jesus was the only sinless person. We will always sin because we are human and because of our sin nature. However, we can always recieve forgiveness. For 1 John 3:6-9, we are not to practice or choose a sinful lifestyle. The Spirit has the power to deliver us from sinful lifestyles.

 

[holyrokker]

For 1 John 1:10, that means that we have sinned and truthfully, Jesus was the only sinless person. We will always sin because we are human and because of our sin nature. However, we can always recieve forgiveness. For 1 John 3:6-9, we are not to practice or choose a sinful lifestyle. The Spirit has the power to deliver us from sinful lifestyles.

Does the Bible really teach that we have a sin nature?

 

[Elife3]

Does the Bible really teach that we have a sin nature?

It is explained in Romans 3:10, "There is none righteous, no, not one." God requires absolute perfection in not disobeying him, which is not possible. However, Jesus washes them away and forgives us of sin and if we sin again, he will forgive us (See 1 John 1:7-9).

 

[holyrokker]

It is explained in Romans 3:10, "There is none righteous, no, not one." God requires absolute perfection in not disobeying him, which is not possible. However, Jesus washes them away and forgives us of sin and if we sin again, he will forgive us (See 1 John 1:7-9).

I don't dispute the obvious fact that everyone sins. I have a problem with the idea that we sin because it's our nature to do so. I don't see that the Bible says that.

 

[LST 1154]

It is explained in Romans 3:10, "There is none righteous, no, not one." God requires absolute perfection in not disobeying him, which is not possible. However, Jesus washes them away and forgives us of sin and if we sin again, he will forgive us (See 1 John 1:7-9).

Romans 3:10 is a quote from Isa 41:26 and both of these passages are showing that indeed not only the Jew but also the Gentile are not righteous in the eyes of God. No one is righteous unless and until God declares him to be righteous. Psalm 32:1-2, "Blessed is he whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord does not count against him and in whose spirit is no deceit." If one is in Christ then God has imputed him with the very righteous of God Himself and if God Himself says that man is righteous, then that man IS righteous, period. (See Romans 4.)

You said "God requires absolute perfection" and you are right! In fact Jesus Himself said in Matt 5:48, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." So Jesus commands us to be perfect but then you say it is not possible to obey Him. In other words He fails to give us any power over a sinful lifestyle so we wallow in sin. NOT. Following Christ is the easiest thing in the world to do! Matt 11:28-30, " Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.' Easy? Light? Yes, but only for those who quit "trying" to live a Christian life. As long as we try in our own power to follow Him by studying "THE COMMANDMENTS" and attempting to follow every one of them we will fail. Jesus wants us to be "in" Him as He is in us, and when we finally rest in Him we will find that He has taken our burden.

LST 1154

 

[Tavita]

1 John 1:8-10 declares that we are liars if we claim that we do not sin but 1 John 3:5-10 declares that if we are Christians we must not continue to sin. These two ideas seem to be in conflict with each other, for we are liars if we say we do not sin but we must not continue to sin. (I'm not saying this is my opinion I'm just providing an initial impression one can develop.)

How do you interpret these two texts? I would like to hear some of your thoughts regarding this matter.

1 John 1: 8-10, means that we have a 'body of sin' that we need to die to daily. If we claim we have no body of sin, or a sinful nature, that in our sin nature we do not sin, then we are liars and the truth is not in us.

1 John 3:5-10, means that as we walk in the Spirit of God, we cannot sin... but it is ONLY as we walk in HIS Spirit. For then we 'put on' the Lord Jesus Christ and His righteousness.

 

[LST 1154]

We cannot be 100% sinless. Even if we only sinned one time in 50 years that would disqualify one to be called sinless, but we should certainly sin less as we grow in Christ and as we allow the Holy Spirit to take more and more control over our lives, over our thoughts and over our actions.

It has been extremely exciting in my life to see how little I sin now that I quit "trying to follow God" and began simply resting in Him. Jesus said that His burden is light and His yoke is easy, when we rest in Him, and it is so true. The most interesting part of all of this is I didn't "work" to allow the Holy Spirit complete reign in my life, I simply rested in Christ. This sounds counterproductive! We have been taught since childhood that if you want something you must work to get it. "Resting" won't get the work done only working will. Well, the "work" was done 2000 years ago by Jesus Christ, all we need to do is rest in Him and allow Him to live His life through us.

LST 1154

 

[Elife3]

Romans 3:10 is a quote from Isa 41:26 and both of these passages are showing that indeed not only the Jew but also the Gentile are not righteous in the eyes of God. No one is righteous unless and until God declares him to be righteous. Psalm 32:1-2, "Blessed is he whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord does not count against him and in whose spirit is no deceit." If one is in Christ then God has imputed him with the very righteous of God Himself and if God Himself says that man is righteous, then that man IS righteous, period. (See Romans 4.)

You said "God requires absolute perfection" and you are right! In fact Jesus Himself said in Matt 5:48, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." So Jesus commands us to be perfect but then you say it is not possible to obey Him. In other words He fails to give us any power over a sinful lifestyle so we wallow in sin. NOT. Following Christ is the easiest thing in the world to do! Matt 11:28-30, " Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.' Easy? Light? Yes, but only for those who quit "trying" to live a Christian life. As long as we try in our own power to follow Him by studying "THE COMMANDMENTS" and attempting to follow every one of them we will fail. Jesus wants us to be "in" Him as He is in us, and when we finally rest in Him we will find that He has taken our burden.

LST 1154

What I meant was, it is not possible to COMPLETELY/perfectly obey him, or not 24/7/365. In the Old Testament NO ONE could keep the law of Moses, because if one broke part of the law, he broke all of it. However, Jesus came to pay the penalty for ALL sins. God is still the same, only his level of righteousness is good enough, and there is no one good enough to meet that righteousness. Romans 4:5 says, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Here, to get God's standard of righteousness, we get it by faith in Jesus Christ. I do believe that a sin lifestyle can be overcome. With God, we can gain victory over sin and live above it. However, We will always be growing in faith. Paul wasn't perfect all the time either. Philippians 3:12-16 says, "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing." Paul didn't consider himself completely perfect, but what he did was still "press on", or grow in Christ, become holier and trying to work harder. Also, when his sins were forgiven, he didn't dwell on them, he would keep pressing on and growing in Christ.