The threshold between heaven and hell?

[JohnClay]

I think in traditional Christianity people either go to heaven or hell eternally. If a person is too immature to be held responsible for their sins (e.g. foetuses or toddlers, etc) they'd automatically go to heaven, otherwise they go to heaven if they're saved or hell if they're not saved.

I get the impression that there would be a threshold between being too immature and being responsible. At one point they'd go automatically to heaven and then one second further in time they'd be sent to hell if they are unsaved. Or maybe their lack of responsibility alternates a bit rather than switching permanently.

Thoughts?

 

[Tolworth John]

Bible Gateway passage: John 3:18 - New International Version
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Is what Jesus said, as for those to young to understand or unable to understand we have to trust in God's knowledge, wisdom, mercy and justice.
We do not know for certain how God will treat those who do not understand.
There are hints that God will be generous David with Bethshepers son, and family covernant promises.

 

[disciple Clint]

I think in traditional Christianity people either go to heaven or hell eternally. If a person is too immature to be held responsible for their sins (e.g. foetuses or toddlers, etc) they'd automatically go to heaven, otherwise they go to heaven if they're saved or hell if they're not saved.

I get the impression that there would be a threshold between being too immature and being responsible. At one point they'd go automatically to heaven and then one second further in time they'd be sent to hell if they are unsaved. Or maybe their lack of responsibility alternates a bit rather than switching permanently.

Thoughts?

This much we know, God is love and God is just, Jesus reveals God in the Gospels. Mat 19 Jesus Blesses the Children
13Then the little children were brought to Jesus for Him to place His hands on them and pray for them. And the disciples rebuked those who brought them. 14But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them! For the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.

 

[cvanwey]

We do not know for certain how God will treat those who do not understand.

Fair enough...

Many claim to speak to God however. Would one of these individuals be so kind as to chime in on the answer...?

What does God do with those whom perish prior to the age of theodicy, or are born with severe brain damage, etc?

 

[ChetSinger]

Fair enough...

Many claim to speak to God however. Would one of these individuals be so kind as to chime in on the answer...?

What does God do with those whom perish prior to the age of theodicy, or are born with severe brain damage, etc?

I don't know, other than that God loves us so much that even when we were his enemies he became a man and died a painful death so we could avoid final judgment. So he's very merciful. And the angels of children always behold the face of the Father.

 

[cvanwey]

I don't know, other than that God loves us so much that even when we were his enemies he became a man and died a painful death so we could avoid final judgment. So he's very merciful. And the angels of children always behold the face of the Father.

Are you insinuating you believe these individuals are given a free pass?

 

[ChetSinger]

Are you insinuating you believe these individuals are given a free pass?

Perhaps they are. After all, I get them myself repeatedly, every time he forgive my sins.

 

[cvanwey]

Perhaps they are. After all, I get them myself repeatedly, every time he forgive my sins.

By 'free pass', I mean you do not adhere to John 3:18, as instructed.

And since we both admit we do not know.... Let's continue with this hypothetical...

If these folks are given such a 'free pass', wouldn't it be logical to execute all youngsters, prior to the age of theodicy? This way, you have 100% assurance they will not be sent to hell. Yes, all executors would be guilty of a crime, but it is for the good of their loved ones. God also forgives, when asked of His followers. -- Even killing...

 

[ChetSinger]

By 'free pass', I mean you do not adhere to John 3:18, as instructed.

And since we both admit we do not know.... Let's continue with this hypothetical...

If these folks are given such a 'free pass', wouldn't it be logical to execute all youngsters, prior to the age of theodicy? This way, you have 100% assurance they will not be sent to hell. Yes, all executors would be guilty of a crime, but it is for the good of their loved ones. God also forgives, when asked of His followers. -- Even killing...

Good grief.

 

[disciple Clint]

By 'free pass', I mean you do not adhere to John 3:18, as instructed.

And since we both admit we do not know.... Let's continue with this hypothetical...

If these folks are given such a 'free pass', wouldn't it be logical to execute all youngsters, prior to the age of theodicy? This way, you have 100% assurance they will not be sent to hell. Yes, all executors would be guilty of a crime, but it is for the good of their loved ones. God also forgives, when asked of His followers. -- Even killing...

The end never justifies the means.

 

[cvanwey]

The end never justifies the means.

In this case, we can only speculate, sure.

But you seem to be under the assumption that God is completely 'merciful'? Meaning, if there exists stillborns, infant deaths, toddlers, etc, or someone with severe brain damage; all of whom never mature to the age of theodicy, that God grants their entrance to heaven????

Now again, we are talking about the "Threshold Between Heaven and Hell".

a) IF the threshold, is as written, that you must believe/etc (i.e.) John 3:18 or Mark 16:15-16, then all these folks look to be hosed. Right?

But...

b) IF there exists exception(s) for the ones whom never have a chance of whether or not to believe, as you might want to suggest, then we must ask ourselves....

The Bible mentions...

" For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."

IF option b) is true, then why would the 'The end never justifies the means'? Dispatching/terminating the young ones would look to guarantee their fate of eternal bliss, verses the probable and likely alternative, via Matthew 7:13.

 

[BobRyan]

I think in traditional Christianity people either go to heaven or hell eternally. If a person is too immature to be held responsible for their sins (e.g. foetuses or toddlers, etc) they'd automatically go to heaven, otherwise they go to heaven if they're saved or hell if they're not saved.

I get the impression that there would be a threshold between being too immature and being responsible. At one point they'd go automatically to heaven and then one second further in time they'd be sent to hell if they are unsaved. Or maybe their lack of responsibility alternates a bit rather than switching permanently.

Thoughts?

Rom 2:13-16 speaks of those with no knowledge of the Bible at all being lead by the Holy Spirit and going to heaven... the rest of the chapter includes discussion about those who knowing what the Bible says - do evil and go to hell.

And of course - Luke 12
47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accordance with his will, will receive many blows, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed acts deserving of a beating, will receive only a few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

 

[disciple Clint]

In this case, we can only speculate, sure.

But you seem to be under the assumption that God is completely 'merciful'? Meaning, if there exists stillborns, infant deaths, toddlers, etc, or someone with severe brain damage; all of whom never mature to the age of theodicy, that God grants their entrance to heaven????

Now again, we are talking about the "Threshold Between Heaven and Hell".

a) IF the threshold, is as written, that you must believe/etc (i.e.) John 3:18 or Mark 16:15-16, then all these folks look to be hosed. Right?

But...

b) IF there exists exception(s) for the ones whom never have a chance of whether or not to believe, as you might want to suggest, then we must ask ourselves....

The Bible mentions...

" For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."

IF option b) is true, then why would the 'The end never justifies the means'? Dispatching/terminating the young ones would look to guarantee their fate of eternal bliss, verses the probable and likely alternative, via Matthew 7:13.

Or we could just know that God is love and God is not unjust. Then we could simply have faith or trust if you will in the character of God.

 

[JohnClay]

BTW a while ago a fundamentalist friend said that babies can in fact go to hell based on Psalms 51:5 (NIV)

Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.​

 

[disciple Clint]

BTW a while ago a fundamentalist friend said that babies can in fact go to hell based on Psalms 51:5 (NIV)

Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.​

"
EXPOSITION

"Verse 5. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity. He is thunderstruck at the discovery of his inbred sin, and proceeds to set it forth. This was not intended to justify himself, but it rather meant to complete the confession. It is as if he said, not only have I sinned this once, but I am in my very nature a sinner. The fountain of my life is polluted as well as its streams. My birth tendencies are out of the square of equity; I naturally lean to forbidden things. Mine is a constitutional disease, rendering my very person obnoxious to thy wrath. And in sin did my mother conceive me. He goes back to the earliest moment of his being, not to traduce his mother, but to acknowledge the deep tap roots of his sin. It is a wicked wresting of Scripture to deny that original sin and natural depravity are here taught. Surely men who cavil at this doctrine have need to be taught of the Holy Spirit what be the first principles of the faith. David's mother was the Lord's handmaid, he was born in chaste wedlock, of a good father, and he was himself, "the man after God's own heart;" and yet his nature was as fallen as that of any other son of Adam, and there only needed the occasion for the manifesting of that sad fact. In our shaping we were put out of shape, and when we were conceived our nature conceived sin. Alas, for poor humanity! Those who will may cry it up, but he is most blessed who in his own soul has learned to lament his lost estate." Psalm 51:5 Commentary - The Treasury of David

 

[BobRyan]

BTW a while ago a fundamentalist friend said that babies can in fact go to hell based on Psalms 51:5 (NIV)

Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.​

Babies "need" a savior.. .and they have one.

1 John 4:14 We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

James 4: 17 If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.
John 9:41 Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.