The three

[Fernando Boom]

The tree is metaphorical, at least IMO.

What makes you say that Strathos? Can you elaborate?

 

[Tolworth John]

John,

Thank you for responding. I have thought about your answer to this question and it's the most plausible. However, in order for choice or free will to be the reason, GOD would have had to create the choice experiment after man was created not before. By creating the choice environment before man everything he said was VERY GOOD at the end of the 6th day of creation would not have been. In order to have choice or free will man would have had to have been offered a choice. The choice that was offered was not to love GOD thru free will, but to either live or die since eating from that tree would have meant certain death. The catalyst for death, choice i.e tree was there before the mirrored image of GOD had life. Adams unconditional love for the father was absolute, untainted, unwavering, and complete from the dust he was crafted from. If GOD need man to have a choice, it would have been after GOD walked with man not before like other instances GOD allowed his children to be tempted by satan to make a free will choice.

Two things, if you want to reply to a post either click on reply or highlight a section and click on quote and post it into the reply bit.
This means the person you are repling to gets notifcation.

2nd.
-If you read the genesis account you find that God did spend time with Adam as he named the animals and as Adam discovered there was no creature fit to be his companion.
When did Adam fall most commentators say after the seventh day.
Speculation as to why God did something or to suggest better ways are just that speculation based on too little information.
What we know is what God did do as recorded in the bible.

As Adam rejected Gods command his love for God was not as good as you say.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[paul1149]

why would GOD create the tree of knowledge of good and evil, put it in the middle of the garden of eden knowing the outcome BEFORE he created man; then generationally and eternally punish or curse man for doing what he already knew he would do?

We are not eternally punished because of eating the fruit of the tree. Adam and Eve may be, though there are different opinions on that, because they knew what they were doing, or should have. But we suffer separation from Christ only if we reject His atonement on our behalf, not for the sin of our father Adam.

Yes, God knew Adam would fall, I believe. But the greater truth is that knowing man would fall, and knowing the unspeakable price required for our redemption - the life of the Son of God - God was willing to pay that price and went ahead with Creation anyway. That's a selfless love we cannot fully understand.

It's hard for us to grasp the dimensions of this because we are stuck in the misery of this fallen world. But the day of re-creation is coming, and this will then be seen as a mere brief wrinkle in time.

 

[jacks]

I believe in GOD first and foremost. I have a question that I cant seem to stop thinking about, I've had it for many months. I hope someone can help.

Since GOD is ALMIGHTY and all seeing, knowing everything that has happened and will happen; why would GOD create the tree of knowledge of good and evil, put it in the middle of the garden of eden knowing the outcome BEFORE he created man; then generationally and eternally punish or curse man for doing what he already knew he would do? It's similar to a parent building a ring a fire then putting your toddler in the middle of it, but the ring of fire was created knowing it will burn him/her FIRST, BEFORE YOUR CHILD IS BORN.

A non literal interpretation does nothing to diminish God's sovereignty and eliminates a lot of confusion. The story of the fall is conveying the truth that since there have been men and women, they have used their freedom in the wrong way. Putting themselves at the center of the universe, instead of God. That the universe is run God's way not man's way. Until they learn that lesson, they will remain separated from God.

 

[Strathos]

What makes you say that Strathos? Can you elaborate?

It represents the inherent sinful nature of mankind and our tendency to disobey God. At least that's the way I see it.

 

[zephcom]

I believe in GOD first and foremost. I have a question that I cant seem to stop thinking about, I've had it for many months. I hope someone can help.

Since GOD is ALMIGHTY and all seeing, knowing everything that has happened and will happen; why would GOD create the tree of knowledge of good and evil, put it in the middle of the garden of eden knowing the outcome BEFORE he created man; then generationally and eternally punish or curse man for doing what he already knew he would do? It's similar to a parent building a ring a fire then putting your toddler in the middle of it, but the ring of fire was created knowing it will burn him/her FIRST, BEFORE YOUR CHILD IS BORN.

I think the best solution to your conundrum is understanding that the two stories of the creation found in Genesis are simply the result of generations...even tens or hundreds of generations...of oral tradition.

They are not literally true. Therefore, one can assume that God was not involved in their creation. And because God was not involved in their creation, they are not expected to be perfect.

They are ancient human attempts at explaining how we came to have an earth with plants, animals and people on it. The stories have lots of company since nearly every tribe of people have a 'creation' story which explains how we came to be. The Genesis ones are just the Jewish versions.

 

[Tone]

The tree is metaphorical, at least IMO.

I think the tendency of some to try to mythologize (is that a word?) What is plainly and simply recorded in Scripture is a bite of the fruit we're talking about...

The Creator has made us what we are...C.S. Lewis said something like "funny, gaseous creatures"...we were created to enjoy His creation like no other creature, reveling in His beautiful garden...the serpent wanted to be more...so did Eve...

What's so hard to believe that it was an actual tree...it fits...just a simple rule concerning a lowly tree...to a humble creature...at least...we were supposed to be.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

The answer is very simple, for there to be a real choice, for there to be the possibility of obedience there also has to be a real possibility for disobedience.

God gave Adam and Eve the ability to make that choice. He did not create preprogrammed robots.

An omnipotent god could have created Adam and Eve with the ability to choose to disobey, but without any desire at all to do so. Free will is maintained, but without the suffering we cause each other.

 

[Tolworth John]

An omnipotent god could have created Adam and Eve with the ability to choose to disobey, but without any desire at all to do so. Free will is maintained, but without the suffering we cause each other.

So you say, yet he didn't and we have to live with the results.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

So you say, yet he didn't and we have to live with the results.

I’m pointing out that your argument about free will doesn’t hold water.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[zephcom]

Job referred to Adam and his sin...how he hid.
The NT refers to Job and his patience.

Okay.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[zephcom]

Noah and his family had to be the ones to carry on the account
found in Genesis. They may have had writings from Enoch on the ark?
Not much oral transfer of the account was needed much, because Adam...the sons of Noah were still alive long into the future.

They -may- have had writing on the ark???

There is no evidence there even WAS an ark. The flood story is just another of the Oral Traditions from the Israelite's ancient history.

Writing in the earliest of times was done on stones which are not known for their portability.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[zephcom]

Both Christianity and islam refer to Noah...his son Shem...
People from long ago that knew Adam were still alive in the days of Noah. Noah was still aiive during the days of Abraham. Egypt bears the name of a son of Noah. It is not like somebody lived...told their story...then the grandkids passed it on to their kids. Adam lived a long time...he could tell the creation account for himself.

I think the point you are ignoring is that those stories are not true. They are fantasy stories. They were made up by a people trying to explain how they got to where they were just like the stories about the 'Great Spirit' of the native Americans were made up.

There isn't the time or space here to go into how the Old Testament...ie the historical Jewish story...came into existence. But the actual WRITING of those stories is relatively recent. As I recall, when the two factions of the Jewish people reunited is the time editors took the oral traditions from the two different groups and wove them into one story line.

It appears that the two groups were happy with most of the work these editors did but some appears to have not happy with all the work. That is why there are two different creation stories, two different flood stories and two different stories of Job written into the single document.

The document simply is an edited version of oral traditions.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[zephcom]

garden of Eden - by real rivers

tree of life - still later same type in the NT on the new earth

Job/the book mentions the long lives of those before him....the flood...Adam...and much more. He descended from Esau it seems as to Eliphaz was one that came to try to advise him. Job also wished his story was written in a book. He tells about creation. He seems to have lived around the time of Jacob's sons.

laid the foundation - the morning stars sang
since man was placed upon the earth
refers to the spirit and breath
knew about the return of Jesus Christ later when God will have a
desire for the work of His hands -He will get his change.
Paul - we shall all be changed.
Job said that in his flesh-he will see God.
He knew that the heavens have to be no more before man will rise.
before they will wake from their sleep

The Harry Potter books created an entire world with places, events, historical timelines and even real appearing people. None of that means it is real.

There is a movement in scholarly world which is saying that there is often some element of reality in most of the ancient oral traditions. But that element of reality does not verify the entire story as accurately portrayed in the oral tradition.

Take the Flood story from the Old Testament. There may well have been a flood in ancient times which was larger than ever seen before. Some people may have even said that it covered the 'whole world' because they didn't know there was anything beyond what they knew about or they just wanted to make it sound 'BIG'.

But science knows for certain that humanity has never been completely wiped out save one family at any time in recorded history. That means the story HAS to be understood in a manner other than absolute history.

Oral tradition of a semi-nomadic tribe of people who really didn't understand the hugeness of the world is a good explanation. That they attributed this to 'God' is understandable given their level of knowledge about the world around them.