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the three woes

Douggg

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You can't change John's order.

Especially to fit some time, times, and half of time into some 7 year formula.

John never mentions 7 years once in the entire book of Revelation.
The time frames have to be arranged on a time line of events according to what the events are about.

The second formula is directly from one chapter - Revelation 12.
1260 days + the undisclosed war in the second heaven time + the time, times, half time = 2520 days (7 years)

That the events when totaled are 7 years is validated by the Ezekiel 39 breakdown of the verses following the Gog/Magog event.
Gog/Magog - then the 7 years (verse 9) - then Armageddon (verses 17-20) - then Jesus's return (verses 21-29)
 
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tailgator

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The 7th Trumpet is not the 3rd woe. The 7th Trumpet is declaring Jesus as the King over every nation.

You are delusional, yourself, if Jesus becoming the King of every nation is a woe.

Was the birth of Christ a woe?

Was the baptism of Christ a woe?

Was the redemptive work on the Cross a woe?

Why would Jesus becoming the King over all nations a woe? This is just another act Jesus has obeyed God in. Jesus accomplished His mission set about in Daniel 9. The 7th Trumpet has declared that mission a success. That is not a woe, but the ultimate end to the plan of redemption.
Is hundreds of millions of people being destroyed a woe?
 
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tailgator

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Paul wrote the last Trumpet in regards to the feast of Trumpets and the end gathering decades prior to John writing about 7 Trumpets. How can you call the 3rd woe the resurrection and the rapture? You are getting more twisted by the post.

You say that the 3rd woe is actually the resurrection and the rapture now?

This is not talking about dead saints. All the church was already in heaven at the 5th Seal, waiting for Jesus and the angels to gather the final harvest. The 7th Trumpet is declaring that work and the final harvest over. The church was already gathered. Only the spiritually dead, walking around on the the earth physically are left to judge and destroy.

The rapture happened back at the 5th Seal. Now you want to change the events around just like the other posters here. You are now claiming the 5th Seal is the 7th Trumpet, 3rd woe.
Paul wrote about the last trump.not a feast of trumpets.
Just the last trump.He does not say this is a feast of trumpets.

"at the last trump: "



Revelation 10:7

But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”


"at the last trump: "


1 Corinth 15

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
 
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Timtofly

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The time frames have to be arranged on a time line of events according to what the events are about.

The second formula is directly from one chapter - Revelation 12.
1260 days + the undisclosed war in the second heaven time + the time, times, half time = 2520 days (7 years)

That the events when totaled are 7 years is validated by the Ezekiel 39 breakdown of the verses following the Gog/Magog event.
Gog/Magog - then the 7 years (verse 9) - then Armageddon (verses 17-20) - then Jesus's return (verses 21-29)
Then you have the return and rapture at a specific time, the last second of your formula.

The time given in Revelation 12 is an historical parenthetical.

This is the list of times and events from Revelation 12:

A.

"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days."

These 1260 days happened in the first century. They cannot happen again.

B.

"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."

This is the same 42 months the 2 witnesses are on the earth, and Israel is not. The redeemed remnant are waiting on the sea of glass.

We know this because in Revelation 4:6, the sea of glass is empty:

"And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal."

John would be the first to arrive to see the soon coming events. Then in Revelation 15:2-3 we see: Israel, the redeemed remnant from Revelation 12:14 on the sea of glass.

"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints."

These people are rejoicing in Revelation 12 and 15 as the redeemed remnant of Israel and the 144k who got the victory, but are waiting for a times, time, and half a time, who return from the sea of glass on white horses. So when they leave on eagle's wings is when they left on white horses.

This second set of 42 months start after the 7th Trumpet has sounded and is the 3rd woe. This is the only period of the beast and FP. There is no "first half" nor "second half" mentioned in Revelation 12.

This 42 months is the same 42 months in Revelation 11, as the 2 witnesses are the only redeemed on the earth. No one on the earth is redeemed, at that point, at least not until they chop their head off, and then they are physically dead until after Armageddon. They are waiting for a body and resurrection. Those on the sea of glass are not waiting for a resurrection, as they return like they left.

Those on the sea of glass are physically moved to the sea of glass on white horses the same as they will physically return at Armageddon.

There is only one time frame in Revelation that relates to the Second Coming, and that is when Satan is in control of the entire earth with his mystery Babylon Kingdom. This is the only time frame of the 2 witnesses.

There is no event nor Judgment from God, other than the plagues caused by the two witnesses, during this time handed over to Satan, the 3rd woe. The 5th and 6th Trumpet, and the first 2 woes cannot happen during Satan's 42 months. That 42 months is calm of events, from God, until the 2 witnesses are killed. During the 3.5 days they physically lay dead, are when the 7 vials are poured out.

Your whole foundation is placed on Daniel 9:27 as being 7 years.

The week in Daniel 9:27 consists of the 7 days of the 7th Trumpet. The 3.5 days the 2 witnesses are dead is the last half of Daniel 9:27. That is the Scriptural formula match. Jesus is declared King, and 3.5 days later the week may split in half. One half prior to Satan's 42 months. One half after. And that half, 3.5 days is the last half of a week split into two sections. The 3rd woe are those 42 months, not half of some imagined set of 7 years.

This erroneous, left behind, 7 year tribulation, scenario is not even found in Scripture, but a wrong interpretation, considering that this scenario contradicts both Matthew 13 and Matthew 25. And no such scenario is found in the entire book of Revelation.
 
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Timtofly

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Is hundreds of millions of people being destroyed a woe?
First off, being destroyed happens all the time, so no.

If they are all immediately destroyed at the 7th Trumpet, then there will be no 42 months of Satan's mystery Babylon. And no Armageddon. Is Armageddon a woe?

Is Armageddon the 3rd woe?
 
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Timtofly

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Paul wrote about the last trump.not a feast of trumpets.
Just the last trump.He does not say this is a feast of trumpets.

"at the last trump: "



Revelation 10:7

But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”


"at the last trump: "


1 Corinth 15

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
No, Paul is talking about a harvest and the ingathering of the Trumpet harvest.


You may as well say that the US President is the last Trump.

You cannot have both the Second Coming as the third woe, and Paul's Second Coming, which is not a woe.

Make up your mind.

Leviticus 23:24

"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation."

This is the same feast of Trumpets mentioned about the Second Coming in Zechariah 14.

"And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."

All of Israel trusting in and aware of the book of Zechariah understood the feast of Trumpets and Tabernacles. Paul associated the OT with the Second Coming, and the last Trumpet ingathering, of the church.

The 7 Trumpets in Revelation are symbolic of the Israeli harvest. They sound while Jesus is on the earth sitting on His throne. Jesus had already been on the earth for months before the 7th Trumpet declares Jesus is finally the King of all nations. That is not a woe. That is the redemption and restoration of the entire earth.

The 3rd woe is if this victory is placed on hold for 42 months, and Satan is handed the Kingdom.

The 7th Trumpet is also the point where Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven for the last time. Handing Satan earth is the third woe. This will happen 3.5 days after the 7th Trumpet starts to sound.

The feast of the Trumpets is a 7 day long event.

John gave us way more specific details and time frames than Paul ever did, so John trumps Paul.

The Second coming does involve the feast of the Trumpets. Just not how you and human theology have explained it.

The Trumpets do have Jesus on the earth. So Paul is not wrong, just not as detailed as John is. John does not contradict Paul, nor does Paul contradict John. Paul is just referencing the OT feast set up by God through Moses.
 
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Douggg

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Then you have the return and rapture at a specific time, the last second of your formula.
Tim, you are the one who believes that that the rapture is on the day of Jesus's return, not me.

These 1260 days happened in the first century. They cannot happen again.
The 1260 days in Revelation 12:6 are the same 1260 days in Revelation 11:2 which the the two witnesses will feed Israel the Word of God. The they in that verse is referring to the two witnesses.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
 
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Timtofly

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Tim, you are the one who believes that that the rapture is on the day of Jesus's return, not me.


The 1260 days in Revelation 12:6 are the same 1260 days in Revelation 11:2 which the the two witnesses will feed Israel the Word of God. The they in that verse is referring to the two witnesses.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Why would the rapture happen years after the Second Coming?

Why would the 2 witnesses feed Israel? What verse in Revelation 11 says that?

Revelation 12:6

"And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days."

This protection was in the historical time frame of the birth of Jesus.

There were some protected in the century related to the earthly ministry of Jesus, after He returned to heaven in 30AD. They were protected, while the majority of the Jews were forced out of Palestine, and then persecuted and killed.

Do you not understand that millions of Jews were killed during the revolt in the last half of the first century?

Revelation 12 never claims the majority of Israel were protected during either the 1260 day period, nor the time, times, and half a time/3.5 years/42 months/1260 days. All three can be considered time, times, and half a time.

Only a remnant were protected in the first century. Only a remnant will be protected for 42 months, and after the Second Coming, not prior to the Second Coming.

Why do you place an alleged Second Coming 3.5 years after the 7th Trumpet? Most would say the 7th Trumpet is a Second Coming sign.
 
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Douggg

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Why would the rapture happen years after the Second Coming?
Tim, I never said that the rapture would happen years after the Second Coming.

Why would the 2 witnesses feed Israel? What verse in Revelation 11 says that?
The 1260 days of Revelation 12:6 are the same 1260 days of Revelation 11:3. During the 1260 days in Revelation 11:3, the two witnesses will be prophesying and testifying about Jesus.

Revelation 12:6

"And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days."

This protection was in the historical time frame of the birth of Jesus.
The first five verses of Revelation 12, verses 1-5 are about Jesus's first coming and His being caught up to God and His Throne, where Jesus now sits at the Father's Right Hand.

Then in Revelation 12:6, the text moves to the end times and the first 1260 days of the 7 year 70th week.

1260 days + the undisclosed war in the second heaven time + the time, times, half time = 2520 days (7 years)

The expression of 1260 days (a thousand two hundred three score days spelled out) in Revelation 11:3 and Revelation 12:6 is not coincidental. They are the same time that the two witnesses will be prophesying and testifying about Jesus in the first half of the seven years.


Revelation 12 never claims the majority of Israel were protected during either the 1260 day period, nor the time, times, and half a time/3.5 years/42 months/1260 days. All three can be considered time, times, and half a time.
Tim, the 42 months, the 1260 days, the time, times, half time are not exact equals to each other. If they were, only one time expression would be used throughout the text.

Only a remnant were protected in the first century. Only a remnant will be protected for 42 months, and after the Second Coming, not prior to the Second Coming.

Why do you place an alleged Second Coming 3.5 years after the 7th Trumpet? Most would say the 7th Trumpet is a Second Coming sign.
Tim, the term "Second Coming" is not in the bible. It is a term that has been popularized to refer to Jesus's return to this earth.

There is a verse, Hebrews 9:28, that uses similar wording (but is not called the Second Coming in the text) to refer to the rapture.

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (the rapture event)

I think what you may be doing is equating the Second Coming popularized term as being the Hebrews 9:28 rapture event - correct ?

If so, you create much confusion in a discussion. Use the term Second Coming as referring to Jesus's return. And use the "rapture" term directly as the "rapture".

Here is a rapture timing window chart I made. Which also shows Jesus's Second Coming - His return - as being after the rapture.





ratpure window 8a.jpg
 
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Timtofly

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Tim, I never said that the rapture would happen years after the Second Coming.


The 1260 days of Revelation 12:6 are the same 1260 days of Revelation 11:3. During the 1260 days in Revelation 11:3, the two witnesses will be prophesying and testifying about Jesus.


The first five verses of Revelation 12, verses 1-5 are about Jesus's first coming and His being caught up to God and His Throne, where Jesus now sits at the Father's Right Hand.

Then in Revelation 12:6, the text moves to the end times and the first 1260 days of the 7 year 70th week.

1260 days + the undisclosed war in the second heaven time + the time, times, half time = 2520 days (7 years)

The expression of 1260 days (a thousand two hundred three score days spelled out) in Revelation 11:3 and Revelation 12:6 is not coincidental. They are the same time that the two witnesses will be prophesying and testifying about Jesus in the first half of the seven years.



Tim, the 42 months, the 1260 days, the time, times, half time are not exact equals to each other. If they were, only one time expression would be used throughout the text.


Tim, the term "Second Coming" is not in the bible. It is a term that has been popularized to refer to Jesus's return to this earth.

There is a verse, Hebrews 9:28, that uses similar wording (but is not called the Second Coming in the text) to refer to the rapture.

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (the rapture event)

I think what you may be doing is equating the Second Coming popularized term as being the Hebrews 9:28 rapture event - correct ?

If so, you create much confusion in a discussion. Use the term Second Coming as referring to Jesus's return. And use the "rapture" term directly as the "rapture".

Here is a rapture timing window chart I made. Which also shows Jesus's Second Coming - His return - as being after the rapture.





View attachment 357898
According to Paul, the rapture happens at the Second Coming. If you claim it does not, then it happens after.

42 months and 1260 days can also be broken down to a time, 2 times, and half a time.

When I say Second Coming, I do mean that Jesus is on the earth, sitting on His glorious throne.
 
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