The Three Beasts

[Douggg]

What you all are saying is very interesting speculation. Thank you. You are causing me to think. LOL . Now about Rev. 17 beast. Let us look at it.
Rev. 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

My question is, is this Abaddon/Apollyon? If so, where is he on your charts?

Hi Handmaid for Jesus,


"was, and is not, and yet is" is an expression to mean "was alive", "is not alive", yet is alive". i.e. the person was alive, then died, then is back alive.

Since Abaddon is an angel - and angels don't die, the beast in Revelation 178b is not Abaddon. Nor is Abaddon, the beast in Revelation 17:8a

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Revelation 17.7 introduces verse 8 by saying....

7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

So Revelation 17:8 is about the mystery of the Scarlet coloured beast. So we have to solved the mystery. Here goes....

Revelation 17:8 is made of two parts. I call "a" and "b".

a. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

b. and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The Scarlet coloured beast is the Great Red Dragon of Revelation 12:9, "that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan". So the mystery is about Satan.

Since Satan also is angel - which because angels don't die, where-ever we encounter the expression "is not", it is not referring directly to Satan himself.

We have "was , and is not" in 17:8a
We have "was, and is not, and yet is" in 17:8b

Satan being that old serpent though does give us a clue to solving the mystery. Starting with....

17:8a is about a person that was alive, is no longer alive, and is in the bottomless pit - someday to ascend out of the bottomless pit to go on to eternal destruction.

Satan, "that old serpent" nomenclature goes back to the garden of eden, when he spoke through the garden of eden serpent beast to deceive Adam and Eve into committing the first sin of mankind. That serpent beast was cursed by God and eventually died.

That's is who the beast is in the bottomless pit, now in spirit form. I show him graphically as a slithering snake on my chart.



--------------------------------------------

17:8b is about a different person, also called the beast, who the world will witness him being alive, then dying, then coming back alive - and be dumbfounded to see it happen. That person will be associated with Satan, who gives his power to him, in Revelation 13:4.

---------------------------------------------

So on my chart, I show this...

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

"was, and is not, and yet is" is an expression to mean "was alive", "is not alive", yet is alive". i.e. the person was alive, then died, then is back alive.

I see that another way. It does not say the king died. It could mean, imho, that the king WAS ruling at some point but is no longer ruling,yet he is still presently( In the pit maybe)?,,but he will arise out of the pit(abys). That king is not a human king imho. If we look at Jude and think about the angels that sinned, we know they are in the pit. Now,imho,
Rev. 9:1
And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
This star is satan who opens the pit.

 

[Douggg]

I see that another way. It does not say the king died. It could mean, imho, that the king WAS ruling at some point but is no longer ruling,yet he is still presently( In the pit maybe)?,,but he will arise out of the pit(abys). That king is not a human king imho. If we look at Jude and think about the angels that sinned, we know they are in the pit. Now,imho,
Rev. 9:1
And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
This star is satan who opens the pit.

I agree that Satan is the star fall from heaven unto the earth, given the key to the bottomless pit.

The number of the beast king is the number of a man - would indicate to me that the beast king will be a man.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

I agree that Satan is the star fall from heaven unto the earth, given the key to the bottomless pit.

The number of the beast king is the number of a man - would indicate to me that the beast king will be a man.

He is man enough to wear the number of a man. But remember what Daniel told us
Daniel 2:43
And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

 

[Marilyn C]

Prime Minister Sunak is a practising Hindu.

Thank you. I really got that wrong.

 

[Douggg]

He is man enough to wear the number of a man. But remember what Daniel told us
Daniel 2:43
And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

I understand the view that you are making regarding the mingling themselves with the seed of men, as being angels having sexual relations with humans to produce offspring like the Nephillum.

But the iron mixed with clay back in verse 40 indicates it applies to parts of the fourth kingdom in it final stage being strong, other parts weak.

For example, in the EU, Germany would be a strong nation, while a nation like Portugal weak.

Years back, I asked the Jews (Judaism) what they thought of the mingle issue - and they said trying to make military alliances through marriages of power families.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

When the Antichrist commits the ToD act and reveals himself as the man of sin, God's reaction will be to bring strangers against him to assassinated him basically.

In Ezekiel 28:1-10, God refers to him as a man.

2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:


7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.

9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

In Ezekiel 28:1-10, God refers to him as a man.

2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

He is a hybrid man. He can die. Yes, like the Nephilim of old.

 

[Marilyn C]

The Nephilim were just bullies. Hebrew - `n`phiyl,` a feller, ie. a bully or tyrant.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

The Nephilim were just bullies. Hebrew - `n`phiyl,` a feller, ie. a bully or tyrant.

So there was nothing exceptional about the compared to other men? Hardly.

 

[Douggg]

So there was nothing exceptional about the compared to other men? Hardly.

I think they were giants. But I don't think that the little horn, Antichrist, revealed man of sin, beast person will be physically a giant.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

I think they were giants. But I don't that the little horn, Antichrist, revealed man of sin, beast person will physically a giant.

I can agree that is a possibility. But, what if he is?

 

[Douggg]

I can agree that is a possibility. But, what if he is?

Sorry, I left out (typo) that I don't think the person will physically be a giant. If he is, then it is going to be pretty obvious.

The verse in Daniel 2 could be interpreted as non-humans "mingling" with humans, but I don't think so. I think it is just talking about some nations don't fit together with other nations in the fourth kingdom of the end times.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

One thing I keep in mind from scripture is this.
Ecc. 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

And Lord Jesus reiterated the same when He said what the end would be like.
Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

I have been watching the technology developments that are happening today. With gene editing, AI, and micrchips advancing at such a rapid pace, anything is possible and I don't think most Christians see it.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Sorry, I left out (typo) that I don't think the person will physically be a giant. If he is, then it is going to be pretty obvious.

The verse in Daniel 2 could be interpreted as non-humans "mingling" with humans, but I don't think so. I think it is just talking about some nations don't fit together with other nations in the fourth kingdom of the end times.

Have you seen some of the guys in the NBA?

 

[Douggg]

Have you seen some of the guys in the NBA?

Yes, 7 footers.

I am thinking that the term "little horn" may, perhaps, suggest that the person is not that tall. I am keeping an eye on Zelensky. A Jew who is in the news, a globally recognized leader, has military experience and is opposed to Russia, a standout politician, his country on fast track to be a EU nation. Song about him on You Tube - "can one man save the world?"

The person, whoever he is, must make his appearance soon, because of the maturing of the parable of the fig tree generation.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Yes, 7 footers.

I am thinking that the term "little horn" may, perhaps, suggest that the person is not that tall. I am keeping an eye on Zelensky. A Jew who is in the news, a globally recognized leader, has military experience and is opposed to Russia, a standout politician, his country on fast track to be a EU nation. Song about him on You Tube - "can one man save the world?"

The person, whoever he is, must make his appearance soon, because of the maturing of the parable of the fig tree generation.

I agree that Zelensky is worth keeping an eye on. I think he may play a significant role in this current state of the world. Who knows where he will end up.But I don't think he has ambition to rule the whole world. Of course I could be wrong.I still think the man who becomes the beast will be a transhuman/hybrid.You don't see how this could happen?

 

[Douggg]

I agree that Zelensky is worth keeping an eye on. I think he may play a significant role in this current state of the world. Who knows where he will end up.But I don't think he has ambition to rule the whole world. Of course I could be wrong.I still think the man who becomes the beast will be a transhuman/hybrid.You don't see how this could happen?

I fogot who, but a few years back, I listened on line to some bible commentators who were expounding on the transhuman issue. I personally don't think so.

The person, whoever he is, is likely at least into his thirties now, and if he were transhuman in some way, I think that would be major news about the person. Do you know of any person known to be, documented, as a transhuman ?

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

I fogot who, but a few years back, I listened on line to some bible commentators who were expounding on the transhuman issue. I personally don't think so.

The person, whoever he is, is likely at least into his thirties now, and if he were transhuman in some way, I think that would major news about the a person. Do you know of any person known to be, documented, as a transhuman ?

No I have not heard of any transhumans to date,other than those seeking gender transitioning. But there are quite a few rich people seeking to develop the technology to "upgrade" humans. With the CRISPR gene editing technology that has been developed, and with Elon Musk's neuralink technology, I can see it progressing very fast. Musk has only tested his technology on monkees, but he wants to start human trials. Who could have see this thirty years ago? See my thread from 2015 regarding the role of technology in the end times.

Pre-Trib Only - The role of technology in the end times

There is wondrous technology in the world today. So much so, that the children born today will forget how to chop wood and haul water. Of course, no one is thinking about what happens when the lights go out.Everything is computerized and making the world more and more dependent upon the...

www.christianforums.com

 

[TribulationSigns]

What is your understanding of the locusts who have the angel of the bottomless pit (Abaddon/Apollyon) as their king?

I see that Douggg has not answered your question yet. Not surprised.

I, too, am interested to know what is Douggg's understanding of the locusts of Revelation 9. Who are the smoke locusts? And what power do they possess? What do the scorpions of the earth represent? Why did God command the locusts not to hurt the grass, green things, and tree but only those men which have not the seal of God on their foreheads? Why were they commanded not to kill but torment them instead? How? And who is their king which is the angel (messenger) of the bottomless pit with the name is abandon and Apollyon? Do I think Douggg actually knows the answer to these questions biblically? Doubtfully, not even his charts will help because these are spiritually discerned to understand!

 

[Timtofly]

I see that Douggg has not answered your question yet. Not surprised.

I, too, am interested to know what is Douggg's understanding of the locusts of Revelation 9. Who are the smoke locusts? And what power do they possess? What do the scorpions of the earth represent? Why did God command the locusts not to hurt the grass, green things, and tree but only those men which have not the seal of God on their foreheads? Why were they commanded not to kill but torment them instead? How? And who is their king which is the angel (messenger) of the bottomless pit with the name is abandon and Apollyon? Do I think Douggg actually knows the answer to these questions biblically? Doubtfully, not even his charts will help because these are spiritually discerned to understand!

They are the rebel angels from Jude 1:6. There is nothing special about them. The first woe let's them torment mankind like Job was tormented. The 2nd woe let's them kill humanity. Many falsely claim they had sex on earth. What they literally would have done on earth, if God had allowed it, would have been to torment and kill humanity, because that is what they do when loosed on the earth. Their rebellion was not one of love and harmony. It was about torment and destruction.

"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

Is there another time of judgement other than the Trumpets and Thunders future from Jude? Jude gives no description of these angels nor their attitude towards mankind. Revelation 9 describes what these angels are capable of. They are not sent by God. They are limited by God in what they are allowed to do.

By the time of the 7th Trumpet these angels are in the firmament assaulting heaven itself. They are defeated by Michael in chapter 12. Obviously they don't use their freedom wisely as they turn against heaven itself.