Originally stated by David Hume, it states that it is impossible for god to be all-loving and all-powerful at the same time if there is suffering. Xians tend to skirt around the issue, but does anyone have a counter that excludes the weak and obvious free will issue?
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
The Theodice problem
- Thread starter OutletOverkill
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Greetins OutletOverkill.
First up. Please refrain from referring Christians to Xians. I think we deserve the respect. Now for your question. God is all-loving because when at times we sin, as long as we confess and repent, he will show mercy and grace to us - that alone is love for me. The reason why there is pain and suffering all around, among other things, is simply the rejection of God. If you reject Him, why should He continually bless you and give you your heart's desire?God is all-powerful because He created the Earth in 6 days (everone knows that), who else can perform such a feat? And Lucifer challenged God before to have power equal and look where God banished him? I didn't quite understand the last part of your question, sorry. Peace of God with you.
Jag
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seebs
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This probably belongs in general apologetics.
Among the many possible answers, one might be that omnipotence doesn't mean "including self-contradictory claims", but merely that any *MEANINGFUL* task is possible - and it may be that there is no meaningful way to have joy without suffering, in which case, I'll accept the suffering if that's the price of joy.
Among the many possible answers, one might be that omnipotence doesn't mean "including self-contradictory claims", but merely that any *MEANINGFUL* task is possible - and it may be that there is no meaningful way to have joy without suffering, in which case, I'll accept the suffering if that's the price of joy.
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Actually there is really nothing isulting with the Xian. This is how Christians use to sign all of their writings long ago. Also as they travelled throughout lands they would write "Xian" in the dirt with sticks so that others who ventured through knew that Christian people had been there, it was a symbol for them. Their mark so to speak...More often than not, it is not meant to be insulting in any way but merely an abbreviation. We do the same thing with Xmas.
Amie~
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Thank you amie.
Jag, sorry, but your argument didn't make much sense. If he was truly all-loving, he would prevent any and all suffering. He supposedly loves everyone, even an atheist like me. However, I love my girlfriend, and I would treat her a lot better than God has. Does that mean I love her more than God does?
Jag, sorry, but your argument didn't make much sense. If he was truly all-loving, he would prevent any and all suffering. He supposedly loves everyone, even an atheist like me. However, I love my girlfriend, and I would treat her a lot better than God has. Does that mean I love her more than God does?
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By the way, God didn't "banish" him to anywhere bad. Lucifer is having a party, and he's also a lot more successful than God, seeing as there is a lot more hate in the world today than love.
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seebs
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You treat her better? So, you cause her to exist, and make it possible for her to ever experience any joy at all?
If you love your kids, do you *REALLY* necessarily take the only action that will prevent all their suffering - never having them in the first place? Or do you grant that some suffering is worth it as the price of joy?
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No it certainly isn't. That's just laughable. I'm not even going to bother responding, since you have NO IDEA about the situation my girlfriend is in.
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amie! You're such a dear! Thank you for the heads up on some Christian history. Added that to my history book...thanks once again. I recall that there was once a thread on this but forgotten where it was.
Yes He loves everyone - just that He hates the sins that we commit. And you sure you love your girlfriend more than God? God sent His son to DIE on the Cross for ALL of mankind's sin, including you and your girlfriend. Can you do that?
And how would you know Satan is enjoying himself and having a party? You've seen him? And if Satan was more successful than God, we wouldn't have Christians in this world, no CF, no missions, no evangelists etc etc.
Then you might want to explain the situation (if you choose to). And you constantly talk about God and how He's not as successful as Satan, and you even said God didn't banish Satan anywhere bad...Why do you keep referring to God when you don't believe in Him? Peace of God be with you OutletOverkill.
Jag
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WinAce
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Forget Hume and his standard argument. Evolution itself is a pretty nasty process to design life with, and the fact that it's what was used is more proof against any benevolent deities than you'll ever need. It creates arms races between ever more grotesque parasites and overactive immune systems, cannibalism, efficient mechanisms for killing and eating stuff, wasps that lay eggs in a caterpillar, with the larvae subsequently eating it from the inside and then turning on each other, etc.
Oh yes, the thousands upon thousands of genetic errors and malfunction-prone "designs" it left for us to deal with is no picnic, either. Stuff like the appendix, lower back, wisdom teeth, cystic fibrosis, Huntington's disease, Harlequin Fetus syndrome (*shudder* *shudder*)...
Then again, it's a lazy process that doesn't require much interaction--sort of the "add water and watch it grow" method of divine creation.
My conclusion--if something did design the universe, it didn't expect us to ever appear, was exceedingly lazy and uncaring, or was a mad scientist.
Oh yes, the thousands upon thousands of genetic errors and malfunction-prone "designs" it left for us to deal with is no picnic, either. Stuff like the appendix, lower back, wisdom teeth, cystic fibrosis, Huntington's disease, Harlequin Fetus syndrome (*shudder* *shudder*)...
Then again, it's a lazy process that doesn't require much interaction--sort of the "add water and watch it grow" method of divine creation.
My conclusion--if something did design the universe, it didn't expect us to ever appear, was exceedingly lazy and uncaring, or was a mad scientist.
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Jag, I refer to God dispite not believing in him to provide argument. And I am sure than I love my girlfriend more than God does. I drive two hours to see her every other day to help her deal with the suffering that God lets her experience.
seebs, since when was my girlfriend's situation a 2000 year old problem?
seebs, since when was my girlfriend's situation a 2000 year old problem?
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James 1
2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4 Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
The short version: No pain, no gain.
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Soul_Searcher
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Despite the argument that to know good there must be evil, I do happen to believe God is all loving, that God IS Love. I think the basic Christian view of God (and life) is too narrow anyhow.
There is suffering because we allow it; we--humans--are responsible for our own suffering (war, disease, hunger, pollution--all the finer things). We aren't responsible for natural disasters of course, but maybe we could be more prepared for them and be more in tune with Nature.
I love my daughter, but I couldn't prevent her from burning her hands on the oven door one day. She learned the hard way not to ever do that again; we humans keep burning our hands generation after generation, year after year.
There is suffering because we allow it; we--humans--are responsible for our own suffering (war, disease, hunger, pollution--all the finer things). We aren't responsible for natural disasters of course, but maybe we could be more prepared for them and be more in tune with Nature.
I love my daughter, but I couldn't prevent her from burning her hands on the oven door one day. She learned the hard way not to ever do that again; we humans keep burning our hands generation after generation, year after year.
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