The Theistic in Theistic Evolution

CPman2004 · Apr 9, 2005

I am just wondering since many here tend to believe Theistic evolution as the explanation of creation, where does God fit in to evolution? Does he make the instances where evolution just doesn't seem to work, work? Did he just create the world and the naturalistic law of evolution then just let it go? Where is God in evolution?

Maccie · Apr 9, 2005

And what is your definition of evolution? There seem to be many false impressions of what evolution actually is on this Forum.

CPman2004 · Apr 9, 2005

well I am understanding the evolution part. The part that I am asking about is the Theistic part of theistic evolution. Sine many ascribe to this belief system then I am wondering where is God in the evolutionary process? Does he take an active part in guiding evolution? Or has he just put the rules in place, and let it go without intervention? I don't want to discuss rather or not evolution is true, but rather how Theistic evolution is any different from athistic evolution.

Maccie · Apr 9, 2005

Well, I'd still like to make sure we are both on the same wavelength when we discuss evolution. As I said before, there are a LOT of false assumptions here on what evolution is. If you think it is "survival of the fittest" then that is not evolution, for example.

But as far as God "guiding" evolution, then I don't think anyone can say. Yes, God caused the beginning of the universe, including the millions of galaxies, and millions upon millions of stars. He also, and it blows my mind thinking about this, designed the DN/RNA of all plants and animal species. Whether or not he gave a nudge to some mutations or not, I don't know. And no-one else does either.

As to the 'why' of some of the extinctions, I don't know that either. If dinosaurs were in fact wiped off the planet by the results of a huge asteroid, which sounds quite likely, no-one knows yet. And no-one knows why, either. Maybe God got tired of dinosaurs?

But if you believe in God, then you believe he is somewhere in all this. But he isn't going to pass down the manual that goes with the 'machine', so there are a lot of questions that simply cannot be answered.

Which is as it should be. After all, he is God.

notto · Apr 9, 2005

God created the creation. Evolution explains how that creation works so God is the author of evolution. As for God's specific involvement, who knows.

The difference between scientific evolution - which describes the effects of evolution and the generation of species, and theistic evolution, would be one of belief that God created - something that science can't propose or prove.

So basically, the difference between atheisitic evolution and theistic evolution is one that involves something that the scientific theory of evolution can not address and doesn't attempt to. It is a difference of belief in God or not. Just like the difference would be between theistic gravity and atheistic gravity or theistic big bang and atheistic big bang.

Maccie · Apr 9, 2005

notto said:
theistic big band

Notto, I do just love the idea of a theistic Big Band!

Vance · Apr 10, 2005

I view God's relationship with the natural process of evolution in the same way I view his relationship with photosynthesis, sexual reproduction, the process which creates rainbows, etc, etc, etc. God creates the process to accomplish His ends, and the process works to accomplish His ends. To the extent He chooses, in His infinite wisdom, to intervene and take special SUPER-natural action (overriding the natural processes He created), then He does so. No problem there, I think He has done that, does do that, and will do it BIG TIME in the future.

I definitely do not look at our current understanding of the process of evolution God created, and seek to plug such a SUPERnatural intervention in every place where our understanding is not yet complete. That type of "God of the gaps" approach is very dangerous. To the extent that you assign God to a "gap" and then we find the way God did that naturally, then we have just given the impression of "removing" God from the process. Much better just to accept that it is ALL God, it is His process, the same as any other process.

gluadys · Apr 10, 2005

CPman2004 said:
well I am understanding the evolution part. The part that I am asking about is the Theistic part of theistic evolution. Sine many ascribe to this belief system then I am wondering where is God in the evolutionary process? Does he take an active part in guiding evolution? Or has he just put the rules in place, and let it go without intervention? I don't want to discuss rather or not evolution is true, but rather how Theistic evolution is any different from athistic evolution.

Strictly speaking there is no such thing as theistic evolution or atheistic evolution. There is simply evolution--one of many natural processes we observe in this world.

An atheist looks at evolution and sees nothing but a natural process.
A theist looks at evolution and sees the hand of God at work.

And the same thing applies to all natural processes.

Do you teach your children that God created them? (I know I did.)
Do you teach your children the scientific facts of sexual reproduction?

If you answered yes to both these questions, you have also answered your question about how God "fits into" theistic evolution. The same way God "fits into" conception, embryological development and birth.

CPman2004 · Apr 10, 2005

So God in the view of TE, is more like a diestic God?

Maccie · Apr 10, 2005

So God in the view of TE, is more like a diestic God?

A what??

CPman2004 · Apr 10, 2005

I mean a god that just started up creation and then left it alone for the most part.

Vance · Apr 10, 2005

Oh, gosh no. At least not among any TE's I have spoken with. God is intimately and constantly involved in His creation and with His created beings. But this does not require him to micromanage every process He developed and put in motion. Do you think God micromanages which way a leaf will blow, or do you accept that God created the process which creates leaves and makes them fall and the process that creates the weather pattern that brings the wind? Do you think God specifically manages each cell division, or just that He created a process by which cells divide?

I think God put all these processes in place, gravity, photosynthesis, the weather, etc, etc, and then let's them happen while He is directly and intimately involved in relationships with His creations themselves. Yes, I think He chooses very often to directly override the very processes He created to effect miracles as part of His relational activities. But I think that God is definitely big enough and powerful enough to have created all these processes to run on their own. At the same time, I see God IN all of them, since it is His power which put them there and at whose will they continue.

notto · Apr 10, 2005

What Vance said.

The God of a Christian who accepts evolution is that same God as any other Christian. The same God who gave us Christ.

gluadys · Apr 10, 2005

CPman2004 said:
So God in the view of TE, is more like a diestic God?

Good heavens, no!

Go back to the question about children. In a Deist view, God creates the process of reproduction and then lets nature take its course and never develops a personal relation with any individual human.

But from Christian perspective, the natural process is not just begun by God. It is used by God. So a TE agrees with the Psalmist when he said:

"For it was you[God] who formed my inward parts; you knit me together in my mother's womb."

And we agree with this even though we know gestation is a natural process.

God uses this natural process to create us as individuals. So we can say truly that we are both the end result of a natural process and at the same time we are works of God.

The same goes with evolution. God uses this natural process to create species of living beings, including ours.

fragmentsofdreams · Apr 10, 2005

CPman2004 said:
I am just wondering since many here tend to believe Theistic evolution as the explanation of creation, where does God fit in to evolution? Does he make the instances where evolution just doesn't seem to work, work? Did he just create the world and the naturalistic law of evolution then just let it go? Where is God in evolution?

I don't know. God could design a system to accompish his goals without further intervention, or He could intervene constantly and subtly. There is really no way to tell between the two. All I know is God is Creator and whatever that is came to being directly or indirectly through His choices and actions.

Maccie · Apr 11, 2005

What Vance, notto and gladuys said. They put it so much better than I can!

God is sovereign, and works in every individual, ism and ology that there is.

Vance · Apr 14, 2005

CPman2004 · Apr 19, 2005

Alright. So if I get this stright God's part in evolution is mostly they guy who developed the rules and put them into motion, and sometimes acts upon the creation, correct?

My next question also has to deal with the theistic part. Since the word Theistic is used to discribe this type of evolution belief system I am wondering since thieism does have to deal with theology, what theological evidence do you have to support the claims of TE? (Note: I am not going to allow you to post, and then shout at you that you are unbiblical, but I am just trying to get information, because in my experience getting anything theological out of a TE is very hard when they insist on defending only the evolution part)

notto · Apr 19, 2005

CPman2004 said:
Alright. So if I get this stright God's part in evolution is mostly they guy who developed the rules and put them into motion, and sometimes acts upon the creation, correct?

My next question also has to deal with the theistic part. Since the word Theistic is used to discribe this type of evolution belief system I am wondering since thieism does have to deal with theology, what theological evidence do you have to support the claims of TE? (Note: I am not going to allow you to post, and then shout at you that you are unbiblical, but I am just trying to get information, because in my experience getting anything theological out of a TE is very hard when they insist on defending only the evolution part)

In The Beginning . . .

The theological part of theistic evolution is based on the same theological beliefs of anyone who accepts the big bang, mainstream geology, mainstream science, etc. If one is Christian, it is based on the bible.

After all, the theists who accept evolution who participate here are Christian. Their theology is supported just as any other Christians theology is supported. Just as the Christian theists who accept geology or cosmology attribute the creation of what they study to the Christian God.

Vance · Apr 19, 2005

What Notto said. The theology is accepted on faith, just like any other theology. Unlike the Creationists and even the ID folks, we don't need scientific proof that God is involved. We don't need to establish scientifically that God was involved. If God created a process that looks exactly as it would look if it ran naturally, then that fits all the more neatly into "those who have believed and NOT seen". We accept God's Creation purely on faith, based on the fact that Scripture tells us that God created everything, is in control of everything, created Man in His image, wants communion with us, etc.

The Theistic in Theistic Evolution

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