jamescarvin
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- Feb 26, 2008
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Your advocating and describing a dual economy or dual dispensaton idea of dispensationalism and/or zionism. Again, remember that those seeking a kingdom on this earth may not be heirs of the 'eternal' kingdom of the New Heaven/New Earth. Nor do they recieve the 'blessings of Abraham' in this life and His present Kingdom.
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No, this is not what I am advocating. I am saying that the Jews will be Christians in the new millennium. They will not be resorting to the old covenant in that time. In the millennium, the Christians, now raptured or raised from the dead, reign with them in resurrected incorruptible bodies from Jerusalem and rule the world with a rod of iron.
Those seeking a kingdom in "this world" may not inherit the kingdom in so far as some passages, especially in Paul, refer to the system of the world. But in the age where Christ reigns and satan is bound, we are not talking about an earth as we know it that is ruled by the prince of this world. We are talking about heaven on earth. And earth as the Lord's footstool.
When I refer to Old Testament prophecy and promises that is(are) yet to be filled, expecting them to be fulfilled in the future, I am not suggesting a resorting to the old covenant law. The law is fulfilled in Christ.
When I say that Zionism is not about world dominance, I am going by what Jews I have talked to have told me. If you have any links which show a connection between Zionism and anything other than a protection of Israel itself, please let me know.
Joshua also did not conquer the whole land that was promised. The height of success of land acquisition was under David. This neither reached as far as the Euphrates to the north or to the River of Egypt to the south. I have heard one commentator suggest David did at least attempt some of this territory, but even if this was true it would not fit what the Lord said. That he had given it.
The promise is found in Gen. 15:18-21
18On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying,
"To your descendants I have given this land,
From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:
19the Kenite and the Kenizzite and the Kadmonite
20and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Rephaim 21and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Girgashite and the Jebusite."
This then will be the land given to the children of faith, not of the law. It has never yet been fulfilled. So it pertains to the future.
That has been dispensationalism teaching from almost a century. No such thing as a future "millenium".No, this is not what I am advocating. I am saying that the Jews will be Christians in the new millennium. They will not be resorting to the old covenant in that time. In the millennium, the Christians, now raptured or raised from the dead, reign with them in resurrected incorruptible bodies from Jerusalem and rule the world with a rod of iron.
Joshua pretty clearly indicates that the land part of the promise was fulfilled:jamescarvin said:Joshua also did not conquer the whole land that was promised. The height of success of land acquisition was under David. This neither reached as far as the Euphrates to the north or to the River of Egypt to the south. I have heard one commentator suggest David did at least attempt some of this territory, but even if this was true it would not fit what the Lord said. That he had given it.
This then will be the land given to the children of faith, not of the law. It has never yet been fulfilled. So it pertains to the future.
Also, dispensationalists who suggest that the future will involve a return to the Old Testament temple and sacrifices and priesthood etc. are gravely misunderstanding the bible.
Jeremiah 31: 31 Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."
Deut 11:8
"Therefore you shall keep every commandment which I command you today, that you may be strong, and go in and possess the land which you cross over to possess, 9 and that you may prolong your days in the land which the Lord [fn1] swore to give your fathers, to them and their descendants, 'a land flowing with milk and honey.' 10 For the land which you go to possess is not like the land of Egypt from which you have come, where you sowed your seed and watered it by foot, as a vegetable garden; 11 but the land which you cross over to possess is a land of hills and valleys, which drinks water from the rain of heaven, 12 a land for which the Lord your God cares; the eyes of the Lord your God are always on it, from the beginning of the year to the very end of the year.
13 'And it shall be that if you earnestly obey My commandments which I command you today, to love the Lord your God and serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul, 14 then I [fn2] will give you the rain for your land in its season, the early rain and the latter rain, that you may gather in your grain, your new wine, and your oil. 15 And I will send grass in your fields for your livestock, that you may eat and be filled.' 16 Take heed to yourselves, lest your heart be deceived, and you turn aside and serve other gods and worship them, 17 lest the Lord's anger be aroused against you, and He shut up the heavens so that there be no rain, and the land yield no produce, and you perish quickly from the good land which the Lord is giving you.
18 "Therefore you shall lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. 19 You shall teach them to your children, speaking of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. 20 And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates, 21 that your days and the days of your children may be multiplied in the land of which the Lord swore to your fathers to give them, like the days of the heavens above the earth.
22 "For if you carefully keep all these commandments which I command you to do--to love the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways, and to hold fast to Him-- 23 then the Lord will drive out all these nations from before you, and you will dispossess greater and mightier nations than yourselves. 24 Every place on which the sole of your foot treads shall be yours: from the wilderness and Lebanon, from the river, the River Euphrates, even to the [fn3] Western Sea, shall be your territory. 25 No man shall be able to stand against you; the Lord your God will put the dread of you and the fear of you upon all the land where you tread, just as He has said to you.
26 "Behold, I set before you today a blessing and a curse: 27 the blessing, if you obey the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you today; 28 and the curse, if you do not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside from the way which I command you today, to go after other gods which you have not known. 29 Now it shall be, when the Lord your God has brought you into the land which you go to possess, that you shall put the blessing on Mount Gerizim and the curse on Mount Ebal. 30 Are they not on the other side of the Jordan, toward the setting sun, in the land of the Canaanites who dwell in the plain opposite Gilgal, beside the terebinth trees of Moreh? 31 For you will cross over the Jordan and go in to possess the land which the Lord your God is giving you, and you will possess it and dwell in it. 32 And you shall be careful to observe all the statutes and judgments which I set before you today.
The chapter lists the curses which are opposite of the blessings.Deut 29:1 "Now it shall come to pass, if you diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe carefully all His commandments which I command you today, that the Lord your God will set you high above all nations of the earth. 2 And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, because you obey the voice of the Lord your God:
15 "But it shall come to pass, if you do not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe carefully all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:
2 Cor 3:13 And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
3:7 But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
When I say that Zionism is not about world dominance, I am going by what Jews I have talked to have told me. If you have any links which show a connection between Zionism and anything other than a protection of Israel itself, please let me know.
Great post. I am a preterist myself and how do you view that "mountain of fire" in Revelation? The City of Jerusalem [which is also shown burning] was also on a mountain wasn't it? Just trying to tie this in to the Hebrew OC of the Jews. Thoughts?Now when Moses was on the Mount recieving both the 10 commandments and the law, when he came down, they could not look upon him unless his face was sheilded. But even so; this glorious covenant has been abolished and is done away.
It certainly seems as though this could be referring to the old covenant especially if one has the perspective that Revelation is mostly referriing to the timeperiod of the 60-75 AD.Revelation 8:8 And the second messenger did sound, and as it were a great Mountain with fire [OC?] burning was cast into the Sea,.......
When we talk of the old covenant, this is not talking of the same religion that the jews display today.
The old covenant was first thought of as an 'old covenant' by the announcement of the 'new' covenant in Jeremiah 31. It is also sometimes thought of as the Mosaic Covenant. I think some people confuse the "old covenant' with the Abrahamic covenant" and blessings given to Abraham and his 'seed'.
This teaching goes directly against the talmudic Judaism where the jews are taught the interpretations that are handed down to them by the Rabbi's. Here God says that He Himself will be our teacher... and elswhere in the New testament we know that this teaching is based on the unconditional forgiveness and adoption as 'sons of God' and thus being able to ask anything of Him, and to ask directly to Him for wisdom. James talks of this as does John in his Gospel and epistles.
What then was this 'old covenant'?
Well, we note that it was begun in Egypt when God took them by the hand to begin leading them to the land promised to them. And then, doing a little searching we read of this covenant being spelled out by Moses in Deut 11-30ff when he came down from the Mount.
The latter chapters of this section of Deut talk of the cursings if and when they do not continue in the commands. These are opposite of the blessings and include the plagues that they escaped even in Egypt.
The chapter lists the curses which are opposite of the blessings.
Now when Moses was on the Mount recieving both the 10 commandments and the law, when he came down, they could not look upon him unless his face was sheilded. But even so; this glorious covenant has been abolished and is done away.
Thus, the conditional Covenant of the land promise to be kept by the Israelites has ended and no longer has any support or effectiveness by God. Those who moved into the land in the last century did so by their own strenght and manipulations and by conning the world through sympathy and false indoctrinations. They were not led of the Spirit in their battles and rather than actually following the commandments, they follow and put their faith in the rabinical interpretations, additions and twists to the commandments. They do not have the ark of the covenant to go before them in battle as those under Joshua did.
2 Cor3 and Hebrews primarily in chapters 6-10 speak very openly about this.
Well, lets have a few. I would suggest a book by Douglas Reed titled: The Controversy of Zion.
Benjamin Freedman is also a name to google as he is a former jew/zionist who began speaking out against world zionism.http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/israel/freedman.htm
Zionism = Communism with the elite talmudic zionists ruling over and benefiting from the other nations.
http://judicial-inc.biz/JB.Campbell.htm
http://www.antichristconspiracy.com/HTML Pages/VanNattan_hypocrite_liar.htm#TOC1_7
This one talks about the teaching of the Talmudic Rabbi's which I have been mentioning.
http://www.fixedearth.com/talmud.html
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/zionism.htm
http://www.antichristconspiracy.com/synagogue_of_satan.htm
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/facts2.htm#one-manInstitute
This one is from a jew, and I dont' know if it can be fully trusted but his perspective is that a jew is not neccessarily a zionist.
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/differencejudzion.html
This one is islamic, but has a rational base to it.
http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/7357
It certainly seems as though this could be referring to the old covenant especially if one has the perspective that Revelation is mostly referriing to the timeperiod of the 60-75 AD.
Hi jamescarvin.
Joshua pretty clearly indicates that the land part of the promise was fulfilled:
Joshua 21I see the land promise as a sort of tithe to Abraham. In the Old Testament times, a tithe was given to YHWH to show that He really owned all of your money; the tithe was a way of stating that. God giving Canaan to Abraham temporarily was a kinda down payment to Abraham, whose real promise was the whole world.
43 So the LORD gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their forefathers, and they took possession of it and settled there. 44 The LORD gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their forefathers. Not one of their enemies withstood them; the LORD handed all their enemies over to them. 45 Not one of all the LORD's good promises to the house of Israel failed; every one was fulfilled.
God Bless.
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