The Ten commandments!!!

Sephania · Apr 21, 2004

marcie said:
Jews observe saturdays, christians sunday for thousand of years, The commandment in Exodus 20:8-11 states that the seventh day of the week, Saturday, is the day which the Lord selected as the day of rest and worship. However, in the New Testament the Christian church began to worship and rest on the first day of the week, Sunday. the command to set Saturday apart as a day of rest and worship is the only commandment not repeated. There are very good reasons for this.

I see that Steve has addressed this but I would like to add that the L-RD did not just "select" this day as just any out of seven. He specifically "made" the evening and the morning of the seventh day, the day of rest, ON the very seventh day that He completed his creation. Everytime we honor the Sabbath, and keep it we are honoring Him as the creator of the universe and all that is in it. This is honoring Yeshua who is the creator as well, for all things wre mad by him and without him was not any thing made that was made. The L-RD repeats what he thinks of those that honor it or don't honor it many times throughout the books. If it were not important why would he do this. And Does he change His mind? He and Yeshua both said that they change NOT. This is what He said:

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

So, is it no longer Holy? should we not honor the creator G-d once a week in celebration of His marvelous works? Has he made another day Holy instead? Why the seventh day only? Read verse 11, He explains it well. Those who believe in evolution are very happy about those that do not honor the creator G-d on this weekly "anniversary" It is a day He blessed, and made Holy, you have to ask yourself, who blessed and made Holy Sunday?

By His resurrection on the first day of the week (Matt. 28:1), His continued appearances on succeeding Sundays (John 20:26), and the descent of the Holy Spirit on Sunday (Acts 2:1), the early church was given the pattern of Sunday worship. This they did regularly (Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:2). Sunday worship was further hallowed by our Lord who appeared to John in that last great vision on "the Lord's day" (Rev. 1:10). It is for these reasons that Christians worship on Sunday, rather than on the Jewish Sabbath

The important issue is WE HONOR IT.

How can you honor something on the wrong day? Yeshua was found gone from the tomb on the first day of the week because that is when the Jews were allowed to leave their homes and travel, they couldn't on a Shabbat. ( Matt 28:1) If he first visited them on a Sunday ( 1st day) and you count 8 days it would be Sun night to Mon night ( 1st day still of wk day 1) Mon night to Tue night ( 2nd day of wk - day 2) Tue night to wed night ( 3rd day of wk - day 3) wed night to Thur night ( 4th day of wk - day 4) thur night to fri night ( 5th day of wk - day 5) fri night to sat night ( 6th day of wk - day 6) Sat night to Sunday night ( 7th day of week - day 7) Sunday night to monday night ( 1st day of week - day 8)

Now the Jewish day is from evening to evening, so if they saw him earlier on and it was still the same day (the first day of the week) it would be actually dawning towards monday when he came into them and Saw Thomas. Eight days later from the time he saw them would be Monday before sundown.

In Acts where does it say he rose to heaven on Sunday? If you count 40 days from Saturday night you get to thursday.

As far as Revelations goes, John was in the spirit on the L-RDS day, the L-RDS day in Jewish reconing, from the L-RD himself is friday evening to Sat evening. This is a day that we believe the doors to heaven are opened and ones soul is closest to the L-RD on that day. This would have been the true Sabbath that the vision was seen on.

Andre · Apr 21, 2004

Double post again, what's wrong with this site?...

Sephania · Apr 21, 2004

Tawhano posted:

I have never understood why people continue to discuss which day the Sabbath fell on. If you keep the Sabbath you must keep it on Saturday and you will be under the law. Christians are not under the law.

Ergo using that same equasion:

If you do not steal you are under the law.

If you worship other gods you are under the law.

If you obey Yeshua's commandements you are what?

The laws are not the condemnation, the condemnation is that we aren't perfect and cannot do them, not without He who can and did doing them in us. Otherwise you are lawless; And of the lawless one.
It was always Israels faith in who G-d was that saved them, the laws were to make them understand that He is holy and they should separate themselves from those that aren't and how to go about that in a heathen world and that when we fail He is our salvation. Salvation is not a new concept, the L-rd has always taught this. Belief, faith in Him is what saves us, we become like him by following His ways and His ways are good!

Sephania · Apr 21, 2004

Andre said:
The Sabbath, just like animal sacrifices, food laws, and cerimonial festivals, was a shadow, a representation of something that was to come.
The animal sacrifices were a shadow of the true sacrifice of Jesus, they didn't have any real sin forgivin power, they were on outward sign that would show the faith of the individual practicing it.

The Sabbath is not only a shadow and if you use it that way that Shadow has not become a reality yet,the earth is not in it's rest, yet. Also this is a memorial to creation, how can that be fulfilled if not by Yeshua bringing back the earth to it's original state. Yeshua is the L-RD of the Sabbath because he is the one who created the world. Also he did not replace all the sacrifices, he is called the Passover which means LAMB, not goat or bull.
Food was a representation of the Gentiles, they were unclean, but now we are all equal, all has been sanctified by God, He has declared all things clean. (1 Tim 4, Mark 7, Acts 10, Romans 14) Yes, when gentiles take hold of the faith of the G-d of Israel he makes them clean, however them being clean does not in turn make what G-d said wasn't food, now food. It is just not so.

Same way with the Sabbath, it was a representation of the eternal rest we have in Christ, it was given to Israel and it was part of the old covenant made between God and Israel at Mount Sinai.

No, the genesis of this was right after the very first sixth day. The children of Israel where told to Remember it and keep it.

When we acept Christ we die to ourselves, we are new creations therefore we are not bound to the old covenant anymore, if one of the parties die the covenant is broken.
Who died? You say you are not bound anymore, when were you bound?

We are now bound to Jesus in the New Covenant by His blood, this is the Sabbath, it's the rest from the Law and it's the eternal rest we will have in the presence of God. When we enter that rest we will rest from our works just like God has rested from His works when He finished creation, He didn't start creating again on the 8th day, He rested forever, and so will we.

No, it is the rest from the condemnation of not being able to follow the laws that make one presentable to G-d, only he can make us righteous.

Colossians 2
16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--
17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

One must examine who he was talking to here. You look at it in a negatory manner, but that is not what Saul was teaching. You may condemn me for keeping the Sabbath, as well as all the feasts of G-d, but here he is admonishing those who don't understand what they mean to not judge, not the other way around.

Hebrews 4

1 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.
2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
" AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,"
although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: " AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS";
5 and again in this passage, "THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST."
6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,
7 He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
" TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS."
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.
9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

You clearly do not understand these passages, written to Jews. Yes, there is another Sabbath to come, not the weekly , but one that will last 1,000 years.

Now there is nothing wrong with setting a day appart to worship God, as long as you do it knowing that that's not where your righteousness comes from and that it has no role in the salvation of the person doing it, it is not a requirement because we are not saved by works, but by the grace of God alone. No, we are not saved by works, no one is, but we are commanded to be holy, and remembering and keeping G-d's holy day is part of that, every week. WE are not called to set apart this day, He choose it, He sanctified it and blessed it, and that is the day we are to set apart, because He did. There is also a big dofference between a Worship day and a Sabbath day, Christians have a worship day wich is Sunday, it is nopt a Sabbath day, if you want to keep a Sabbath day you must hang out with some Jews, they'll let you know how to do it, it is not as simple and watered down as the SDA's Sabbath wich is a joke compared to the Jewish Sabbath.

Sephania · Apr 21, 2004

Andre said:
They were a covenant forever until one of the two parties died, God never dies, but when we acept Christ we are born again, we are a new creation and we are not bound to the Old Covenant anymore we are bound to the New Covenant in wich we are not under the Law, but under Grace.
Each time you state this it is as if you were at one time "under the Old Covenant". You weren't and you can't be under something if you never lived by it, before you knew Yeshua, you were a heathen, no? Or were you a practicing Jew?
Doesn't mean we can go sinning at will, but the Law will be written in our hearts and we will be convicted of our sin by the Holy Spirit, something that didn't happen before the day of Pentecost.
The Holy Spirit also did not just appear out of nowhere on Shavuot, there are so many references to him in the "OT" I won't even mention them but what do you think that "The Spirit of the L-RD was with him" means? Pharoah of Egypt was the first to recognize him, and he was a heathen!

Jesus followed the whole Law of the Old Covenant perfectely, that's why He wore all the appropriate clothing. Tzitzi are not "appropriate clothing", they are strings tied to ones clothing, what ever that may be. It was/is a commandment to follow so that you can remember G-d and his commandments. Yeshua didn't do it to be fashionalby Jewish, he did it because it was a commandment to do so, even though he, of all people didn't need to be reminded to follow the commandments, so how much more should we, that are constantly in battle with the world to keep our focus on the L-RD's ways?

Romans 7

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.

Colossians 2

9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.
16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--
17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
tHis certificate of debt does only shows that you have broken said laws it does not say that they are nullified. Only that the penalty is paid.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; As was Abraham, and every one before or after him, that has NEVER changed.

Remnant · Apr 21, 2004

The Thadman said:
Please, the only thing I can say is to read the entire chapter that comes before this verse. It is a Jewish dialogue with Jews, do not take it out of context.

All in all, this was a HUGE Bible-clipping job, eliminating context, which I can honestly say has not helped your argument.

I have in over 30 years read that entire chapter, and have come to the conclusion that it is not only speaking to the Jews, but to all believers. The reason for the clip job was to get to the point, not an argument. If someone wants to find out about something bad enough, let them go to the scripture and search.
We have arguments saying the Old Covenant this and New Covenant that: When you look at it at the face of it Jesus brought it all together in one. We are ALL Jews, We are ALL Israel. Look at just a couple of examples of this:

Rev 15:3
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Why sing the song of Moses (Ex. 15:1) if the old covenant is done away with? Does not make a bit of sense.

Rev 21:10-27
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
KJV

Why make the foundations of the City the Apostles? And the Gates of the City the Twelve Tribes? And on and on.

And there is much more spoken of in the books where ALL nations will become one.

When things are plainly said in scripture, don't try to make something more out of it: You confuse the context:

1 Cor 14:33
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
KJV

kermit the toad · Apr 21, 2004

The Thadman said:
But according to Isaiah 56, gentiles who unite themselves with YHWH are charged with keeping the Mosaic Torah.

Isaiah 56:1 Thus says Yahweh, Keep you justice, and do righteousness; for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who holds it fast; who keeps the Sabbath from profaning it, and keeps his hand from doing any evil.
3 Neither let the foreigner (i.e. GENTILES), who has joined himself to Yahweh, speak, saying, "Yahweh will surely separate me from his people!"; neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4 For thus says Yahweh of the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and hold fast my covenant:
5 To them will I give in my house and within my walls a memorial and a name better than of sons and of daughters; I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6 Also the foreigners who join themselves to Yahweh, to minister to him, and to love the name of Yahweh, to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath from profaning it, and holds fast my covenant;
7 even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.
8 The Lord Yahweh, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says, Yet will I gather others to him, besides his own who are gathered.

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

Fair enough, but as I was reading last night, I noticed something in ACTS. Let me grab my Bible and I'll quote the relevant passages. This is in specific reference to circumcision, but I think it can be applied to the Old Convenant in general:

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither out fathers nor we were able to bear?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Skipping ahead a bit we see this (again, in regard to circumcision):

Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Feel free to read the entire chapter if you feel I've taken things out of context (though I don't believe that I have).

The Thadman · Apr 21, 2004

kermit the toad said:
Fair enough, but as I was reading last night, I noticed something in ACTS. Let me grab my Bible and I'll quote the relevant passages. This is in specific reference to circumcision, but I think it can be applied to the Old Convenant in general:

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither out fathers nor we were able to bear?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Skipping ahead a bit we see this (again, in regard to circumcision):

Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Feel free to read the entire chapter if you feel I've taken things out of context (though I don't believe that I have).

The only thing that I would say is of note is that Acts 15 does not refer to circumcision in general, but the Pharisaic ritual of circumcision as it was in accordance to "the Custom of Moses" (customs which the Pharisees called the Torah, and we know that the Pharisees made no distinction between their oral law and the actual Torah).

Additionally verse 29 follows after the context of verses 19-21:

19 Therefore my judgment is that we dont trouble those from among the Gentiles who turn to God,
20 rather that we do write to them that they abstain from the pollution of idols, from sexual immorality, from what is strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses from generations of old has in every city those who preach him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.

The "basics" of the Torah, so to say, are to abstain from idols, sexual immorality, and blood, as these are sins that God says caused him to, literally, vomit the people who practice them out of the land and other nasty things (for example, Lev 18:25). In verse 21 we see why they were being asked to keep the basics, because every Saturday (Sabbath) they would learn more about the Law of Moses in the Synagogue.

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

Andre · Apr 21, 2004

The Thadman said:
But according to Isaiah 56, gentiles who unite themselves with YHWH are charged with keeping the Mosaic Torah.

Isaiah 56:1 Thus says Yahweh, Keep you justice, and do righteousness; for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who holds it fast; who keeps the Sabbath from profaning it, and keeps his hand from doing any evil.
3 Neither let the foreigner (i.e. GENTILES), who has joined himself to Yahweh, speak, saying, "Yahweh will surely separate me from his people!"; neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4 For thus says Yahweh of the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and hold fast my covenant:
5 To them will I give in my house and within my walls a memorial and a name better than of sons and of daughters; I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6 Also the foreigners who join themselves to Yahweh, to minister to him, and to love the name of Yahweh, to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath from profaning it, and holds fast my covenant;
7 even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.
8 The Lord Yahweh, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says, Yet will I gather others to him, besides his own who are gathered.

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

I agree with our post 100%, but this reffers to the Old Covenant, Israel was still under the Law and salvation was only extended to the Gentiles at this time if they joined themselves with Yahweh and followed the Law.

Now the veil of the Temple has been torn in two, we that are in Christ have been made clean before the eyes of God not on our own righteousness attained by the Law, but by the righteousness of Jesus wich is applied to us when we accept Him, giving us access to God in a way that was impossible before, only the High Priest could go into the Most Holy, now we all can come to the presence of God.

ischus · Apr 21, 2004

Andre said:
Now the veil of the Temple has been torn in two, we that are in Christ have been made clean before the eyes of God not on our own righteousness attained by the Law, but by the righteousness of Jesus wich is applied to us when we accept Him, giving us access to God in a way that was impossible before, only the High Priest could go into the Most Holy, now we all can come to the presence of God.

Valeu, Andre !!!

The Thadman · Apr 21, 2004

Andre said:
I agree with our post 100%, but this reffers to the Old Covenant, Israel was still under the Law and salvation was only extended to the Gentiles at this time if they joined themselves with Yahweh and followed the Law.

Now the veil of the Temple has been torn in two, we that are in Christ have been made clean before the eyes of God not on our own righteousness attained by the Law, but by the righteousness of Jesus wich is applied to us when we accept Him, giving us access to God in a way that was impossible before, only the High Priest could go into the Most Holy, now we all can come to the presence of God.

So you're saying that we do not need to follow the Law because Jesus did ("the righteousness of Jesus")? "The righteousness of Jesus" would be -how- Jesus followed the Torah that we are supposed to imitate, not that he did so we don't have to.

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

ischus · Apr 21, 2004

Hey guys... I am stepping in here a bit late, but am I hearing you say, Thad, that Gentile-Christians should follow the entire Law? And if so, could you explain your definition of the torah (eg. is this resticted to the pentateuch, does it include pharisaical additions, does it include case law, or just apodictic, etc.).

Andre · Apr 21, 2004

The Thadman said:
So you're saying that we do not need to follow the Law because Jesus did ("the righteousness of Jesus")? "The righteousness of Jesus" would be -how- Jesus followed the Torah that we are supposed to imitate, not that he did so we don't have to.

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

We are supposed to imitate Jesus, but we will never be able to, nobody has ever even come close to being sinless and perfect, and perfect is the only thing God acepts, therefore if we are going to be judged on our own rigteousness we will never make it, if God sees anything less than Jesus when He looks at you you have missed the mark.
We should look to the Law and base our moral values upon it, but there are things in the Law that were shadows, representations of things to come and we are not under them anymore because they have been fulfilled at the comming, death and ressurection of Jesus (Col 2:16), when we acept Jesus as our Savior we receive the Holy Spirit, the Helper wich convicts us or our sin and guides us in righteousness. If we love God with all our soul, mind, heart and strength, and love others as Christ loves us we will never sin, when we fail to do that and we put our sinfull desires before it then we are sinning.
The Law is there to show us how dirty we are and to show that appart from Christ we can't make it, only Christ can clense us, no matter how much we try on our own we will never clean ourselves.

Symes · Apr 21, 2004

We are supposed to imitate Jesus, but we will never be able to, nobody has ever even come close to being sinless and perfect, and perfect is the only thing God acepts, therefore if we are going to be judged on our own rigteousness we will never make it, if God sees anything less than Jesus when He looks at you you have missed the mark.
We should look to the Law and base our moral values upon it, but there are things in the Law that were shadows, representations of things to come and we are not under them anymore because they have been fulfilled at the comming, death and ressurection of Jesus (Col 2:16), when we acept Jesus as our Savior we receive the Holy Spirit, the Helper wich convicts us or our sin and guides us in righteousness. If we love God with all our soul, mind, heart and strength, and love others as Christ loves us we will never sin, when we fail to do that and we put our sinfull desires before it then we are sinning.
The Law is there to show us how dirty we are and to show that appart from Christ we can't make it, only Christ can clense us, no matter how much we try on our own we will never clean ourselves.

Andre

There are no shadows in the ten commandcements. Why to you infer that the fourth is a shadow when God says it will last forever?

You have a situation whre you have the Sabbath kept before the cross, changed to the first day of the week, according to you.

Then the Bible says the Sabbath will be kept in the New earth forever.

Why would God do that?

The Thadman · Apr 21, 2004

ischus said:
Hey guys... I am stepping in here a bit late, but am I hearing you say, Thad, that Gentile-Christians should follow the entire Law? And if so, could you explain your definition of the torah (eg. is this resticted to the pentateuch, does it include pharisaical additions, does it include case law, or just apodictic, etc.).

Yes, I personally believe that all Christians should follow the entire Law and Prophets. The "Old Testament" (Tanakh) is made up of three sections that Jesus mentioned, Torah (Law), Neviim (Prophets), and Ketuvim (lit. Writings, but Jesus refers directly to the Psalms, etc., because they were inducted into the Tanakh during the 1st Century). Jesus mentioned different things concerning each of the sections.

For example:

Matthew 5
17 Dont think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I didnt come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 For most assuredly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the Torah, until all things are accomplished.
19 Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least Commandments ((NOTE: of the Torah)), and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness ((NOTE: Adherence to the Torah, as per Paul's dichotomy)) exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Luke 10
25 Behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested him, saying, Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said to him, What is written in the Torah? How do you read it?

The man them summarized the Torah with the two greatest commandments: Love God (Deut 6:5), and love your neighbor as yourself (Lev 19:18), and Jesus said, seeing his interpretation as fit, "Do this!" (i.e. the Torah).

As a result, since each encounter with the Pharisees, scribes, and lawyers is centered around proper interpretation of the Torah, I reject rabbinic tradition, as that is what Jesus stood staunchly against.

Matthew 15
2 Why do your disciples disobey the tradition of the fathers? For they dont wash their hands when they eat bread.
3 He answered them, Why do you also disobey the commandment of God because of your tradition?

Mark 7
1 Then the Pharisees, and some of the scribes gathered together to him, having come from Jerusalem.
2 Now when they saw some of his disciples eating bread with defiled, that is, unwashed, hands, they found fault.
3 (For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, dont eat unless they wash their hands and forearms, holding to the tradition of the elders.
4 They dont eat when they come from the marketplace, unless they bathe themselves, and there are many other things, which they have received to hold to: washings of cups, pitchers, bronze vessels, and couches.)
5 The Pharisees and the scribes asked him, Why dont your disciples walk according to the tradition of the fathers, but eat their bread with unwashed hands?
...
9 He said to them, Full well do you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.

(Tradition of the Fathers, it litterally, "the gemara of the Avot" part of the oral law later compiled in the Talmud.)

In Isaiah 56 we see that God wishes Gentiles united with him to follow these commands, saying:

3 Neither let the foreigner, who has joined himself to Yahweh ((NOTE: Gentiles, no mention of whether or not they are living within the gates of Israel.)), speak, saying, Yahweh will surely separate me from his people; neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4 For thus says Yahweh of the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and hold fast my covenant:
5 To them will I give in my house and within my walls a memorial and a name better than of sons and of daughters; I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6 Also the foreigners who join themselves to Yahweh, to minister to him, and to love the name of Yahweh, to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath from profaning it, and holds fast my covenant;
7 even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.
8 The Lord Yahweh, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says, Yet will I gather others to him, besides his own who are gathered.

Any other questions that I can answer for you? I'd be happy.

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

kermit the toad · Apr 22, 2004

Andre said:
I agree with our post 100%, but this reffers to the Old Covenant, Israel was still under the Law and salvation was only extended to the Gentiles at this time if they joined themselves with Yahweh and followed the Law.

Now the veil of the Temple has been torn in two, we that are in Christ have been made clean before the eyes of God not on our own righteousness attained by the Law, but by the righteousness of Jesus wich is applied to us when we accept Him, giving us access to God in a way that was impossible before, only the High Priest could go into the Most Holy, now we all can come to the presence of God.

Thank you for saying this much better than I would have been able to.

Andre · Apr 22, 2004

Symes said:
Andre

There are no shadows in the ten commandcements. Why to you infer that the fourth is a shadow when God says it will last forever?

You have a situation whre you have the Sabbath kept before the cross, changed to the first day of the week, according to you.

Then the Bible says the Sabbath will be kept in the New earth forever.

Why would God do that?

Symes, you have done this at least 30 times in previews threads, you keep mentioning that we changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, I and others have told you many times that we did not change the Sabbath to Sunday, neither did God, the Sabbath was on Saturdays, and if you still want to keep the Sabbath you have to do it on Saturdays, it's not Sunday, Christians don't keep the Sunday, we worship on Sunday, two diferent things.
Don't keep puting words in my mouth as if I had said that because I never did.

Symes · Apr 22, 2004

Symes, you have done this at least 30 times in previews threads, you keep mentioning that we changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, I and others have told you many times that we did not change the Sabbath to Sunday, neither did God, the Sabbath was on Saturdays, and if you still want to keep the Sabbath you have to do it on Saturdays, it's not Sunday, Christians don't keep the Sunday, we worship on Sunday, two diferent things.
Don't keep puting words in my mouth as if I had said that because I never did.

Andre

Can a man serve two masters?

Remnant · Apr 22, 2004

Sorry folks, made a mistake here!!!!

Remnant · Apr 22, 2004

Andre:
Can you tell us when the Christians started to come together on the first day of the week?

Acts 20:7 is the only time that is mentioned where there is a gathering. 'The Lords Day' is not a reference to the Sunday day of gathering and we only have one reference to that: Rev. 1:10.

What is an everlating covenant?

Gen 9:16-17
16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
17 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.
KJV

Now that's an everlasting covenant that we see quite a few times in a year.

Isa 24:5
5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
KJV

Or a 'sign'(seal) between God and His chosen people?

Didn't Abraham have an 'everlasting covenant' with God?

The Ten commandments!!!

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