But I thik it is a very valid question for our sabbatarian fiends. I hope you continue to ask it as as much as I harp on Jer 31:31-34 and Mat 26:28.
bugkiller
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But I thik it is a very valid question for our sabbatarian fiends. I hope you continue to ask it as as much as I harp on Jer 31:31-34 and Mat 26:28.I am so tired of asking these same questions.
But I never get a straight answer.
Why didn't paul want the galatians churches under law?
Why didn't paul want Jewish law reinstated?
Gal 2:18 No, if I start building up again a system which I have pulled down, then it is that I show myself up as a transgressor of the law.
Your use of Romans 2:13 is 100% on target. The problem is you think it says occasional or mostly keeping or doing the law is what it really says. There is not a single human alive that did the law. The only One able to do so is God, Himself meaning Jesus Christ. You violate the law at least every week and can not help it. If you could keep the law there would be no need of redemption. You would be righteous. Our righteousness is like filthy rags. Do you know what those filthy rags are? Does your righteousness established by the law exceed that of the scribes and pharisees? If it doesn't you do not have eternal life. Jesus said so. Do you get this righteousness through trying to obey the law? No! Salvation is not by works which only produce death. You have been invited to accept the free gift. All you have to do is accept it. And BTW you can have my wages, I like the free gift much better.(Something I posted in another topic that might benifit this discussion if anybody has answers)
In Romans 7:12 which was written more than 25 years after the death of Christ it reads, "Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good." Also in Romans 2:13 it says, "For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified." Again in Romans 7:22 he writes, "For I delight in the law of God according to the inward of man."
For your understanding I wish the word used was acknowledge instead of establish. Paul no where urges the Christian to obey the law. He was beaten by the Jews many times and chose imprisionment over recanting.It seems clear on here that people believe once we have faith in Jesus, we have no need to keep the law. But Paul addresses this also in Romans. In 3:31 he says, "Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law." Paul tells us that faith does NOT abolish the law, it establishes it, or upholds it.
And he is correct you can not be found guilty of a supperceded law. The Torah was no longer in effect or having jusrisdictionn. This was promised by God in Jer 31:31-34 and validated by Jesus in Mat 26:28. Its unfolding is documented in Acts which includes the Gentiles.We also see in Acts 24 when he was defending himself before the Roman govbernor Felix because of the charges of dissension and sedition brought by the Jewish religious leaders. He replies to the accusations that are brought against him by saying, "I worship the God of my fathers, believe all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets." That was said in verse 14, and I don't think that he is saying there that the law is still in effect, BUT in Acts 25:8 when he again is defending himself he says, "Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all."
Because it is a different (new) covenant not like the one issued at Sinai with their fathers. Now about your Rev 14:12 statement. First you do not keep the ten commandments. You violate the sabbath every week. Feel free to ask me how. And you ask about the commandments that the saints kept. What are they? I have provided I John 3:23 in reponse to identify the commandments of God the Father and God the Son (collectively the commandments of Jesus). Are they the same as the commandments of God the Father? No! John 15:10.This is sometime after Christ's death and resurrection in which Paul says he has done nothing against the law. I think it is interesting that 9 of the 10 are upheld. I know the argument, but Jesus says to love one another which is the last six, and we obviously have to love God. But if 9 of the commandments are clearly still to be upheld, WHY would ONE of them not be? Doesn't it make sense that God established these 10 for a reason? To show that we love Him (The first four) and to show our love for others (The last 6). Also in Revelation 12:17 it says the dragon went to war with those "who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Again in Revelation 14:12 it reads, "Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."
Identify the My commandments of John 14:15 and 15:10. While you are at it identify My Father's commandments. It is impossible that they are the same. We know that Jesus kept the ten commandments as a Jew so obligated.I've had people argue that these are NOT the 10, but actually all the commandments that Jesus taught. First of all, Jesus kept the Sabbath and actually never told people not to observe it, He rather upheld it. Also, both of these verses talk about keeping the "commandments of God and the faith of Jesus". If this is not directed toward the 10, what are the commandments of God being spoken of here?
I hope that I have talked enough about the scripture you provided. But then you must also address the scripture I provided, even when I did not ask about it.I would like answers/responses to all the scripture and points I make. I feel it's kind of weak to only focus on one part of my post and then leave out the scripture that I provided.
I don't understand what you are saying. Usually the argument is about only one of the ten commandments, namely the 4th or the sabbath. Why you want to discuss murder is beyond me, unless of course you wish to try and obligate us to a superceded covenant which has no jurisdiction. That makes it the traditions and commandments of men which are doctrines of devils.It might be because of your limited view of what the commandments are. Have you considered I John 3:23? This clearly does not point to the ten commandments.
/quote]
Gee, I didn't get to that part yet. Why?
John 1 2:3 This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
John 1 3:2 Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother.
Let's break it down. Jesus's walk did not include murder. (good)
Cain's walk did include murder. (bad)
Let's keep it simple. We are not talking about a particular administration of these laws or a particular sacrificial system.
Can we start with just one out of ten?
If not, why not?
Now before you go emotional on me sice you are so concerned with behavior I suggest Gal 5:13-24 and I Tim 1:9,10.
bugkiller
I am so tired of asking these same questions.
But I never get a straight answer.
Why didn't paul want the galatians churches under law?
Why didn't paul want Jewish law reinstated?
I might be confused here, but Revelation 14:12 reads, "Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus."
This isn't being legalistic. Why are we so quick to keep the traditions of men and follow what they say rather than the word of God?
But I would also say that 1 John 3:23 summarizes the 10 commandments, right? "...That we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ...", Jesus is God, and if we believe in the name of God, and have a relationship with God like this is acting, then that summarizes the first 4. The next part, "...and love one another, as He gave us commandment." This summarizes the last 6. How is my understanding limited in that?
John 1 2:3 This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
John 1 3:2 Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother.
John 1 3:2 Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother.
Cain's walk did include murder. (bad)
Can we start with just one out of ten?
If not, why not?
In 2John sums up "the truth" and doctrines that he taught and what he nmean by commandments.
When sabbatarian isolate verses they're able to confuse themselves with added commentary to impose the law into these lessons. They dont care what the context is saying when they find key words.
Are you assuming the fathers commandments to the Son was only to keep the law of Moses? It's seems clear that fulfilling all the prophecies written in the law and the prophets was more than performimg all that Moses recieved from Sinai. Jesus was born to die. Jesus was King of Kings and Lord of Lords, His obedience was to death on the cross. The works of the Son was far beyond keeping the law.(He is God and man). Even God's prophets were called to other works of righteousness than keeping the law.Why is this debatable? When I read John 15:10 I get that Jesus obeyed His Father's commandments, not His (meaning Jesus'). When I read I Joihn 3:23 I get that God the Father has only one well two commandments in the NC. They are to believe in His Son and do as His son commanded. The commandments Jesus issued are different than those of the law (Torah) of Moses which came from God the Father. I very much agree with the immediate sentence above.
bugkiller
We can agree that that the original apostles were sent to the Jews first. But their letters are fulfilling the great commision of spreading the Gospel to the world. John's annointing was to reveal Jesus as the creator and the Son of God, rather than a geneolgy from Adam or Abraham.Wow, bro- do you know that Scriptures asks the believers to rightly divide the word of Christo? No contest all of scriptures are GOD breath but not all are written to us (church of Christ-Christ's Believers), therefore in order to understand the epistles of the apostles, do you not agree that we need to know who writing what/ why & who is the targeted audience?
Gal 2:7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter
Gal 2:8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),
Gal 2:9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
There you go, therefore know that the Epistles of John/James & Peter were written specifically to the Unbelieving Jews whom have not accepted Christ
90% of Christinity are so sorely mixed up that they take scriptures that are not addressed to them like as though it is hence the big muck up. It's akin to 1000 Island salad which one dumps everything inside & mix it all up!
Wow, Paul preaching Jesus and the new covenant because the church would be condemned. Amazing! I have no idea what that has to do with being redeemed from the law which is what Jer 31:31-34 states and Jesus validated in Mat 26:28.Because Paul, consistent with the teachings of Covenant/Reformed Theology, understood that if the church were to be judged by the standards of God's moral law it would stand condemned - in need of God's grace.
Similar answer. Because Paul, consistent with the teachings of Covenant/Reformed Theology, understood that if the he were to be judged by the standards of God's moral law he too would stand condemned - in need of God's grace.
Hence the "5 Solas" of the Reformation.
* Sola Fide, faith alone.
* Sola Scriptura, Scripture alone.
* Solus Christus, Christ alone.
* Sola Gratia, grace alone.
* Soli Deo Gloria, glory to God alone.
No agrument from me that Jesus had more on His plate than just the law of Moses which included the ten commandments. I still don't see how you would seperate them into commandments issued by Jesus. Ex 33:20 still stands as a major proof that Jesus did not issue the ten commandments.Are you assuming the fathers commandments to the Son was only to keep the law of Moses? It's seems clear that fulfilling all the prophecies written in the law and the prophets was more than performimg all that Moses recieved from Sinai. Jesus was born to die. Jesus was King of Kings and Lord of Lords, His obedience was to death on the cross. The works of the Son was far beyond keeping the law.(He is God and man). Even God's prophets were called to other works of righteousness than keeping the law.
Isaiah tells us...
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
I still don't see how you would seperate them into commandments issued by Jesus. Ex 33:20 still stands as a major proof that Jesus did not issue the ten commandments.
bugkiller
IPC is using that text to mean we should be keeping the ten commendment according to this endtime prophecy.IPreachChrist said:I might be confused here, but Revelation 14:12 reads, "Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus."
But I thik it is a very valid question for our sabbatarian fiends. I hope you continue to ask it as as much as I harp on Jer 31:31-34 and Mat 26:28.
bugkiller
Excellent! Now if you just understood what a doer of the law is. Being a doer of the law is not a part time affair. IOW you can not fail (sin). One's righteousness must exceed that of the scribes and pharisees. Does yours? If so did you get it by the law? Jesus said that you can not have eternal life if it doesn't. Does this mean you approrate the rightesoueness of Jesus and return to the law? No, one can not. Gal 5:3, 4. One can not have both. If one could get or have a righteousness by the law (which is impossible) there would be no need of Jesus which is identified by Gal 5:3, 4. One must make a clear choice.(Something I posted in another topic that might benifit this discussion if anybody has answers)
In Romans 7:12 which was written more than 25 years after the death of Christ it reads, "Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good." Also in Romans 2:13 it says, "For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified." Again in Romans 7:22 he writes, "For I delight in the law of God according to the inward of man."
Where does Paul say that faith establishes the law? How is the law made void? Jer 31:-34 promises such. It clearly says thatIt seems clear on here that people believe once we have faith in Jesus, we have no need to keep the law. But Paul addresses this also in Romans. In 3:31 he says, "Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law." Paul tells us that faith does NOT abolish the law, it establishes it, or upholds it.
And Paul is absolutely 100% correct. First of all one can not be charged with a crime based on a superceded non existant has been law. Secondly I have already established that the law has been superceded by Jesus (God) in Mat 26:28. Jesus also said true worshippers shall worship The Father in Spirit and in truth and not at the Temple aka Jerusalem. John 4:21-23We also see in Acts 24 when he was defending himself before the Roman govbernor Felix because of the charges of dissension and sedition brought by the Jewish religious leaders. He replies to the accusations that are brought against him by saying, "I worship the God of my fathers, believe all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets." That was said in verse 14, and I don't think that he is saying there that the law is still in effect, BUT in Acts 25:8 when he again is defending himself he says, "Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all."
I again point you to Jer 31:31-34. We have a different new covenant testified to by Jesus in Mat 26:28. Let me add Hosea 2:11 where God says that He will terminate the sabbath. Evidently the ten commandments are not immutable.This is sometime after Christ's death and resurrection in which Paul says he has done nothing against the law. I think it is interesting that 9 of the 10 are upheld. I know the argument, but Jesus says to love one another which is the last six, and we obviously have to love God. But if 9 of the commandments are clearly still to be upheld, WHY would ONE of them not be? Doesn't it make sense that God established these 10 for a reason? To show that we love Him (The first four) and to show our love for others (The last 6). Also in Revelation 12:17 it says the dragon went to war with those "who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Again in Revelation 14:12 it reads, "Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."
I think the answer can be found in I John 3:23 - And this is His (God the Father's) commandment, That we should believe on the name of His (God the Father's) Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He (Jesus God the Son) gave us commandment. I inserted the comments in parenthesis to help you with the gramatical structure. You are free to disagree with Who the pronouns refer to if you like. The word commandments is not limited to the ten commandments.I've had people argue that these are NOT the 10, but actually all the commandments that Jesus taught. First of all, Jesus kept the Sabbath and actually never told people not to observe it, He rather upheld it. Also, both of these verses talk about keeping the "commandments of God and the faith of Jesus". If this is not directed toward the 10, what are the commandments of God being spoken of here?
And like wise you should of course respond to my verses out of kindness and cooperation for discussion.I would like answers/responses to all the scripture and points I make. I feel it's kind of weak to only focus on one part of my post and then leave out the scripture that I provided.
Because Paul, consistent with the teachings of Covenant/Reformed Theology, understood that if the church were to be judged by the standards of God's moral law it would stand condemned - in need of God's grace.
Similar answer. Because Paul, consistent with the teachings of Covenant/Reformed Theology, understood that if the he were to be judged by the standards of God's moral law he too would stand condemned - in need of God's grace.
Hence the "5 Solas" of the Reformation.
* Sola Fide, faith alone.
* Sola Scriptura, Scripture alone.
* Solus Christus, Christ alone.
* Sola Gratia, grace alone.
* Soli Deo Gloria, glory to God alone.
I'm confused, let's rewind......
IPC said....
IPC is using that text to mean we should be keeping the ten commendment according to this endtime prophecy.
I responded....
It's debatable that John meant the ten commandments rather than the only two commandments that Jesus gave Him to write about in all his letters.
I think I identified clearly both the commandments of God the Father and the commandments o Jesus (God the Son) as different throught my reference to I John 3:23 - And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.I'm confused, let's rewind......
IPC said....
IPC is using that text to mean we should be keeping the ten commendment according to this endtime prophecy.
I responded....
It's debatable that John meant the ten commandments rather than the only two commandments that Jesus gave Him to write about in all his letters.
Wow, bro- do you know that Scriptures asks the believers to rightly divide the word of Christo? No contest all of scriptures are GOD breath but not all are written to us (church of Christ-Christ's Believers), therefore in order to understand the epistles of the apostles, do you not agree that we need to know who writing what/ why & who is the targeted audience?
Gal 2:7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter
Gal 2:8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),
Gal 2:9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
There you go, therefore know that the Epistles of John/James & Peter were written specifically to the Unbelieving Jews whom have not accepted Christ
90% of Christinity are so sorely mixed up that they take scriptures that are not addressed to them like as though it is hence the big muck up. It's akin to 1000 Island salad which one dumps everything inside & mix it all up!
That what I had in mind with my response to him.........I think that IPC is using a concept and definition of the word commandment used by sabbatarians. It is a very limited usage that creates the ability to twist scripture and deceive because of the common understanding of the word.
No I do not believe or assume that Jesus was only obligated to the law of Moses and had no mission commissioned by God the Father. ONTH There is no dioistiction on conncerning that in John 15:10. So I think that would be inclusive, not exclusive. It does not say something like other or additional commands/commandments. One still has to deal with Ex 33:20 - And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. Moses is lying if Jesus issued the ten commandments. Thousands have seen Jesus.Are you assuming the fathers commandments to the Son was only to keep the law of Moses? It's seems clear that fulfilling all the prophecies written in the law and the prophets was more than performimg all that Moses recieved from Sinai. Jesus was born to die. Jesus was King of Kings and Lord of Lords, His obedience was to death on the cross. The works of the Son was far beyond keeping the law.(He is God and man). Even God's prophets were called to other works of righteousness than keeping the law.
Isaiah tells us...
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
That is fine to view it that way because Jesus is God. Generally when the word God is used it means God the Father. Sabbatarians use it both ways without making a distinction. This allows for deception. I contend that the commandments are issued by God the Father. A major sticking point for me is Ex 33:20. I think I can back up the idea with things like Gen 3:15. Tell me Who the Speaker and the Seed are. They can not be thes same entity while both are God. Tell me Who is responsible for creation. God the Father or God the Son or God the Holy Spirit. Where does authority come from? The Father, The Son, or the Holy Spirit? All things start from God the Father. Who get credit for creation? The Father or the Son? Read Rev 4 and 5 and indetify. I find that He that sat on the Throne is God the Father, Who gave the book to be opened to the Lamb (Jesus). I find that Him Who sat on the Throne to be God the Father that is being worshipped in v 11 identified as being on the Throne in v 10. Verse 11 also includes for Thou hast created all things. Chapter 5 starting at v 1 Who sat on the throne had a book in His right hand and did what with it? Gave it to the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David...v6 a Lamb as it had been slain...took the book. Is there still some doubt?That what I had in mind with my response to him.
I also see the commandments of Jesus as the commandments of God.
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