The tale of the missing tail

tas8831

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Creationists like to dismiss the notion of vestigiality, and one of their favorite targets in the coccyx. "Not a tail! NEVER a tail!" they claim, "no human ancestor had a tail, so the coccyx CANNOT be a vestigial tail!"

The earliest HUMAN ancestors were tailless, this is true. But earlier Primate ancestors were not. Most non-anthropoid primates have tails. I say most as there is at least one species - the Barbary Macaque - that is tailless:

114_0616.jpg

One wonders how the creationist explains this tailless primate? Where is the intermediate between a tailed Barbary macaque ancestor and the extant tailless kind? Did the Barbary macaque never have a tail, even as all the other macaques did/do? If so, WHY? Inquiring minds want to know (how creationists spin their way out of that one!)
 

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Ted
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Hi tas,

You ask:
Where is the intermediate between a tailed Barbary macaque ancestor and the extant tailless kind?

I doubt that there is one. Personally, I've never understood that there have been many, if any, 'intermediate' species. So, that would mean, according to my understanding, that this creature was created without a tail. In looking into a few facts concerning this particular creature, it seems to be one of very few 'monkeys' that will live in cold, snowy climates. Perhaps, because of this ability to withstand the cold, they weren't given tails.

For me, I can tell you that the way I 'spin' my way out of evolutionary theory, is that I believe that most, if not all, the creatures that inhabit the earth were created as they are. It speaks to God's wonderful and awesome knowledge and wisdom, that He could create such diversity in plants, animals and human beings. But that's just me. Others, I'm sure, have different understandings as to how we got to be here on February 20, 2019.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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tas8831

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I doubt that there is one.
Me too.
Personally, I've never understood that there have been many, if any, 'intermediate' species.
It comes down to semantics.
So, that would mean, according to my understanding, that this creature was created without a tail.
Why?
In looking into a few facts concerning this particular creature, it seems to be one of very few 'monkeys' that will live in cold, snowy climates.
I think you looked up the wrong one - this is the Barbary macaque (Macaca sylvanus). It lives in Gibralter and Morocco. Not a lot of snow.
Perhaps, because of this ability to withstand the cold, they weren't given tails.
Wrong species.
For me, I can tell you that the way I 'spin' my way out of evolutionary theory, is that I believe that most, if not all, the creatures that inhabit the earth were created as they are. It speaks to God's wonderful and awesome knowledge and wisdom, that He could create such diversity in plants, animals and human beings. But that's just me. Others, I'm sure, have different understandings as to how we got to be here on February 20, 2019.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
Thanks, Ted.
 
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juvenissun

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Creationists like to dismiss the notion of vestigiality, and one of their favorite targets in the coccyx. "Not a tail! NEVER a tail!" they claim, "no human ancestor had a tail, so the coccyx CANNOT be a vestigial tail!"

The earliest HUMAN ancestors were tailless, this is true. But earlier Primate ancestors were not. Most non-anthropoid primates have tails. I say most as there is at least one species - the Barbary Macaque - that is tailless:

114_0616.jpg

One wonders how the creationist explains this tailless primate? Where is the intermediate between a tailed Barbary macaque ancestor and the extant tailless kind? Did the Barbary macaque never have a tail, even as all the other macaques did/do? If so, WHY? Inquiring minds want to know (how creationists spin their way out of that one!)

Boy, you put yourself upside down. It is YOUR question, not one for creationist.

How do we get this odd monkey? What's wrong with its tail?
 
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tas8831

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Boy, you put yourself upside down. It is YOUR question, not one for creationist.
No, it is a question for those that think all living things were created - like you.
How do we get this odd monkey? What's wrong with its tail?
How was it created?


By the way - you are on ignore. I was just a bit bored and decided to see what you had written. Not worth the time or effort, sorry.
 
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juvenissun

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No, it is a question for those that think all living things were created - like you.

How was it created?

Is that a question from an evolutionist?
Congratulation, the campaign of evolution, you got a winner.
 
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miamited

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Hi tas,

You asked a couple of questions of my post and so here's my reply. You asked:

I don't know. I don't have to know all the reasons that God has done what He's done in creating all that He's created. I can't tell you why He needed to make so many stars and planets and asteroids and such that move around in the universe. I can surmise, but I can't give any definitive reason why.

I would surmise that the universe needs to be so unimaginably huge because it was created to endure forever and everything is moving about and so the size allows all that to happen without things going 'bump'. I know that the Scriptures tell me that the heavens declare the glory of God and so the only reason I can really give for why there are so very, very many heavenly bodies within the universe is that much like the plants and animals of our realm, it gives us a picture of awe and wonder and magnificence and the wisdom and diversity in what exactly God can do. All that we see out there, if we believe the Scriptures that tell us that God made everything in both the heavens and the earth, just confounds me with awe and wonder at how marvelous and creative God is. Billions upon billions of heavenly forms and as far as we know, no two are alike. Just like with the diversity of the plants and the animals. A myriad of varying forms and purposes and no two exactly alike.

I mean, we have product designers that can come up with maybe 10-15 varying designs. In some things maybe a hundred or a thousand. But that doesn't even come close to all the diversity that God has created.

You then responded:
I think you looked up the wrong one - this is the Barbary macaque (Macaca sylvanus). It lives in Gibralter and Morocco. Not a lot of snow.

Here's where I got my information: Barbary macaque : the species | BMAC

Barbary macaques are very adaptable and live in a range of habitats and temperatures – they are one of the few monkeys which live in cold, snowy areas. From fir and mixed oak forests to sheer and inhospitable seeming cliff faces, the monkeys live in groups ranging from 30 to 80 individuals, moving together around their habitat to forage for food in the trees and on the ground.

But, please understand that I'm just guessing that this idea, that it's one of the few monkeys that can live in cold and snowy areas, explains why there might be a good reason that it has no tail. As someone who believes in the biblical creation model, I have to believe that God created everything pretty much as we see it today. That there might be some micro changes within a species, I won't deny. But for the most part, all that we see scampering about on the earth, was created as it is, to do what it does, by a God who is just a whole lot wiser and creative than any man will ever be.

He made the universe as He made it because He alone understands what it takes for it to exist forever and ever. He made the earth as it is because He alone understands what it takes for a planetary body to support life, esp. the life of mankind. God knew that men would build homes and so He covered the planet, and placed within the planet, all the necessary materials that we might do that. God knew that a planetary body was too big to just be a ball of mud roiling about and so He created it with all the different strata of rocks and dirt and sand, because He is the only one wise enough to create such a thing the first time perfectly.

Look at our engineers when they set out to build something. They start with an idea and they put some materials together and it falls apart because they didn't consider some force that might come into play. So, they build another model and make changes to allow for what they didn't allow for the first time. It lasts a little longer, but then something else falls apart or breaks down and so they go back to the drawing board with their new information and build a third model. God did it all perfectly the very first time because that's how wise and all knowing God is. There is no force that God forgot to account for. There is no weakness in design that God didn't allow for. Even for man's sin, God, according to the Scriptures, already had a plan established that would take care of that. God has never had a moment where He's said, "Oh crap! I forgot to allow for that!"

Sure, today we have engineers and designers who can build tall skyscrapers, but trust me, there were dozens of things that were found that needed to be corrected before we got to where we could teach engineering principles that would carry today's engineers over all of those first problems.

The Millennium Tower in San Francisco is sinking. How come? Because the foundation engineers didn't allow for the soft soil and didn't plant the foundation supports deep enough. Now, do you really think that bankers and investors put out millions of dollars to build a building that they knew would fail? I seriously doubt it. God's never had such a problem.

Now, I fully understand that you're not likely to agree with my understanding because the first step in even understanding my understanding is that you do have to believe that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the one true and living God who created all things. Without that foundation, then one has to believe that all that is somehow created itself. That we sit here today in the year 2019 and all that we see around us has made itself into being what it is. Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on one's perspective and understanding, I don't suffer from not allowing for that one simple piece of information about 'how' and 'why' all things that have been created, were created.

I don't have to know all the 'why's' of life. I just believe that a perfect God created everything perfect and what we see today is because God. Why He did it or How He did it, I can surmise, but outside of what I've been told in the Scriptures, it's all just guessing on my part. I'm perfectly OK with that because I know that what's really important isn't the 'how' and 'why' of God's creating, but the purpose and desire that He has for me in all of His creating. I know, yes, I know, that one day God is going to call all mankind, from Adam to the last man standing, to account for their life. I know that according to the Scriptures He isn't going to ask whether anyone figured out the 'how' and 'why' of His creating, but He's going to want to look and see whose name is written in His Son's Book of Life. According to the Scriptures, when we get to the day of God's judgment, that's the only thing that's going to matter going forward.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted
 
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