The sun stood still

dad · Sep 2, 2005

Nathan Poe said:
Such a sudden axial shift would've caused earthquakes and simililar catasrophies all across the planet. Wouldn't the Bible have mentioned those?

Maybe you are right. All we are doing is exploring the possibilities here. Now, how do you know this, exactly? What kind of rotational/axial/spin changes would really be required, and, it was not a sudden thing, but one that went over a whole day! Lastly, it is also a fact that we don't know all that much about the interior of the earth. If it was substansially different than theorized, perhaps this would help explain things as well.

dad · Sep 2, 2005

Gracchus said:
Just say it's a miracle, Dad. There is no science to support such a thing. Someone one said that you can't serve two masters. Science can't justify blind belief.

Of course it was a miracle, as is human life, and all life on earth, and the spiritual, and some dreams, and etc etc. The thing is, I don't know the earth would suffer as you think, if the ball's angles were altered over a day.

dad · Sep 2, 2005

Locrian said:
Well put. Why would someone come to a science forum asking whether something could happen and then suggest that the responses are wrong because the physics could have just been superceded?

What a waste of time.

Physics has it's place. It is not a waste of time to put it in it's place rather than salaaming to it's everlasting omnipotence.
If you had some point, other than religious like indignation that some don't embrace physics as all powerful -like how much alteration was required, and how much stress this would have on the planet, that would be different. Hand waving only reveals deep beliefs.

Nathan Poe · Sep 3, 2005

dad said:
I wasn't asking what would happen if brakes were slammed on, but if the movement was altered somewhat temporarily, to face the light more.

The Earth (and everythign on it) spins at approximately 1200 miles an hour. Whether it stops, or makes a sudden right turn, the results would be practically identical.

Nathan Poe · Sep 3, 2005

dad said:
Maybe you are right. All we are doing is exploring the possibilities here. Now, how do you know this, exactly? What kind of rotational/axial/spin changes would really be required, and, it was not a sudden thing, but one that went over a whole day!

In planetary terms, one "whole" day is a sudden thing. A planet weighing several thousand billion tons doesn't exactly stop on a dime, or take corners well. Even the smallest change in the rotation in such a short time, and we'd feel it -- much to our regret.

For example, (and this is only dealing with part of the planet here) Los Angeles and San Franciso are built on separate tectonic plates. Because those plates are moving, the two cities are moving towards each other about one inch every year. That may not sound like much to you, but think about what happens when those plates bump.

Lastly, it is also a fact that we don't know all that much about the interior of the earth. If it was substansially different than theorized, perhaps this would help explain things as well.

It's also a fact that the interior of the Earth doesn't matter. We're talking about the mass, and about Newtonian physics here. Something that big suddenly changes direction, we're going to notice -- catastrophically.

dad · Sep 3, 2005

Nathan Poe said:
The Earth (and everythign on it) spins at approximately 1200 miles an hour. Whether it stops, or makes a sudden right turn, the results would be practically identical.

OK, but how sudden would the course alteration have to be? All we have here is a slight readjusting, in this scenario.

Nathan Poe · Sep 3, 2005

dad said:
Of course it was a miracle, as is human life, and all life on earth, and the spiritual, and some dreams, and etc etc. The thing is, I don't know the earth would suffer as you think, if the ball's angles were altered over a day.

So your philosophy is to call everything a "miracle" until the word "miracle" has no meaning...

Nathan Poe · Sep 3, 2005

dad said:
OK, but how sudden would the course alteration have to be? All we have here is a slight readjusting, in this scenario.

To match up with Joshua's sun-stopping scenario as described in the Bible, we're talking over the course of a few hours -- at the longest

More than sudden enough.

dad · Sep 3, 2005

Nathan Poe said:
In planetary terms, one "whole" day is a sudden thing. A planet weighing several thousand billion tons doesn't exactly stop on a dime, or take corners well. Even the smallest change in the rotation in such a short time, and we'd feel it -- much to our regret.

For example, (and this is only dealing with part of the planet here) Los Angeles and San Franciso are built on separate tectonic plates. Because those plates are moving, the two cities are moving towards each other about one inch every year. That may not sound like much to you, but think about what happens when those plates bump.

Both plates are on a solid planet, wheras the spaceship earth is in space! I mean if we are in an elevator to the 14th floor, and it goes real quick, or slow from floors 11 to 14, changing our arrival time a bit, would I die from bashing into the next person, or 'plate' in the box? No. You may need some numbers here.

It's also a fact that the interior of the Earth doesn't matter. We're talking about the mass, and about Newtonian physics here. Something that big suddenly changes direction, we're going to notice -- catastrophically

So you say, but can you offer any support for the alteration amount of movement, and how newtonian physics say the mass would have a big problem?

dad · Sep 3, 2005

Nathan Poe said:
To match up with Joshua's sun-stopping scenario as described in the Bible, we're talking over the course of a few hours -- at the longest

More than sudden enough.

Well, it lasted I think 12 or so hours. Do not even ancient temples show us a different alignment of the axis likely was here long ago, than is here now? Perhaps the creation article I read somewhere on this was wrong, but I heard that ancient temples were rebuilt with slightly different angles, to allow for a changed allignment of the stars, etc.
Combine this, with the info someone posted that indeed the event was recorded in some other ancient cultures, and it looks promising.
Now I know people think I am a literalist here sometimes, but I wonder if the sun stopping, to prolong daylight means right in the exact spot in the sky, or, generally, just in the same area, or at least up there somewhere to keep it day!? If so, that could provide a little wiggle room.

Nathan Poe · Sep 3, 2005

dad said:
Both plates are on a solid planet, wheras the spaceship earth is in space! I mean if we are in an elevator to the 14th floor, and it goes real quick, or slow from floors 11 to 14, changing our arrival time a bit, would I die from bashing into the next person, or 'plate' in the box? No. You may need some numbers here.

irrelevent. Motion is motion, be it on a planet or in space. And when you're on the elevator, you may not be able to tell whether it's going fast or slow, but if it speeds up or slows down, you feel that.

Multiply that by a couple sextillion times when the planet changes speed or direction.

So you say, but can you offer any support for the alteration amount of movement, and how newtonian physics say the mass would have a big problem?

This is elementary physics: The planet's mass is huge; ours is tiny. Given that the Earth has a couple sextillion times more mass, any force that affects it would affect us a sextillion times more.

Nathan Poe · Sep 3, 2005

dad said:
Well, it lasted I think 12 or so hours. Do not even ancient temples show us a different alignment of the axis likely was here long ago, than is here now? Perhaps the creation article I read somewhere on this was wrong, but I heard that ancient temples were rebuilt with slightly different angles, to allow for a changed allignment of the stars, etc.
Combine this, with the info someone posted that indeed the event was recorded in some other ancient cultures, and it looks promising.

Except we already knew this was so. In addiition to rotation and revolution, the Earth also "wobbles" on its axis, so that, foe example, The North Star (currently Polaris) has not always been the "North Star" and will not always be.

IIRC, it takes the planet 37,000 years to make a complete "wobble." (A figure which, I know, is utterly meaningless to YEC theology)

But the point is, the axial shift is old news, and completely normal.

Now I know people think I am a literalist here sometimes, but I wonder if the sun stopping, to prolong daylight means right in the exact spot in the sky, or, generally, just in the same area, or at least up there somewhere to keep it day!? If so, that could provide a little wiggle room.

Well, as long as you're not being a literalist, you might want to ask how "un-literal" you want to be.
Eventually, no "wiggle room" would be necessary.

dad · Sep 3, 2005

Nathan Poe said:
irrelevent. Motion is motion, be it on a planet or in space. And when you're on the elevator, you may not be able to tell whether it's going fast or slow, but if it speeds up or slows down, you feel that.

Multiply that by a couple sextillion times when the planet changes speed or direction.

This is elementary physics: The planet's mass is huge; ours is tiny. Given that the Earth has a couple sextillion times more mass, any force that affects it would affect us a sextillion times more.

Let me see then, if the moons gravity affects tides, and the oceans swish water around, then I need to multiply this billions of times to the nth power, and have all life wiped out every time some force affects our planet? If say, some planetary object passed real closely by, or/and some big meteor(s) (or series of them) tweaked our sun angle a bit, we would have to wipe all life out?

Nathan Poe · Sep 3, 2005

dad said:
Let me see then, if the moons gravity affects tides, and the oceans swish water around, then I need to multiply this billions of times to the nth power, and have all life wiped out every time some force affects our planet? If say, some planetary object passed real closely by, or/and some big meteor(s) (or series of them) tweaked our sun angle a bit, we would have to wipe all life out?

The moon's gravity affects tides (and yes, to an extent, it affects us); but doesn't shift the planet's orbit.

And no planetary object has passed close by enough to "tweak" our sun angle, has it?

dad · Sep 3, 2005

Nathan Poe said:
Except we already knew this was so. In addiition to rotation and revolution, the Earth also "wobbles" on its axis, so that, foe example, The North Star (currently Polaris) has not always been the "North Star" and will not always be.

IIRC, it takes the planet 37,000 years to make a complete "wobble." (A figure which, I know, is utterly meaningless to YEC theology)

But the point is, the axial shift is old news, and completely normal.

OK, so you concur here. There was a shift! Now, if there was no God, or creation, or etc. etc. we figure it would shift it's little self in some 37,000 imaginary years, fine. Now, with a special order palnetary sized object passing by at the right spot, perhaps even a meteor for good measure (let me know if we need a little more here) we have a gentle tweak that fits the bill, and happens in the same day!

Well, as long as you're not being a literalist, you might want to ask how "un-literal" you want to be.
Eventually, no "wiggle room" would be necessary.

Only as unliteral as it was actually intended to be. The known facts are these, the sun stayed up longer so they could win the battle, due to the intervention, directly, of the Almighty God. It certainly looks more and more like it was just an earth localized event.

dad · Sep 3, 2005

Nathan Poe said:
The moon's gravity affects tides (and yes, to an extent, it affects us); but doesn't shift the planet's orbit.

And no planetary object has passed close by enough to "tweak" our sun angle, has it?

[/QUOTE]
Has it not? We can't even see most of the mass of the universe! Would we even know if some so called dark matter passed by? Would they even know back then if a lrge regular object passed by? Maybe they would have seen it as a moving little 'star'? And what about a meteor tweak here? Like a giant booster engine, directing spaceship earth a bit?

Nathan Poe · Sep 3, 2005

dad said:
OK, so you concur here. There was a shift!

Wrong tense, dad. Not was, is. The Earth is wobbling on its axis. Slowly but steadily, and enough so that a few thousand years in the past (still within human history) would be a noticable difference.

Now, if there was no God, or creation, or etc. etc. we figure it would shift it's little self in some 37,000 imaginary years, fine.

Based on its current speed, sure, it would make a complete wobble in 37,000 years.

Now, with a special order palnetary sized object passing by at the right spot, perhaps even a meteor for good measure (let me know if we need a little more here) we have a gentle tweak that fits the bill, and happens in the same day!

And you're stuck with the same problem you had before -- when thousands of trillions of tons of matter suddenly decides to make a right turn (for whatever reason), what happens to the bits of flesh-and-blood flotsam who happen to be standing on it?

Only as unliteral as it was actually intended to be. The known facts are these, the sun stayed up longer so they could win the battle, due to the intervention, directly, of the Almighty God. It certainly looks more and more like it was just an earth localized event.

Except this is not a "known fact," it's the second- and third-hand testimony in a Holy Book.

What do you suppose was happening on the rest of the planet while the sun was standing still for Joshua?

dad · Sep 3, 2005

Nathan Poe said:
Wrong tense, dad. Not was, is. The Earth is wobbling on its axis. Slowly but steadily, and enough so that a few thousand years in the past (still within human history) would be a noticable difference.

No, not if indeed it changed a little quicker at some point, during a direct intervention of God, that we know happened!

Josh 10:14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.

Based on its current speed, sure, it would make a complete wobble in 37,000 years.

Right, but the norm was not at play in the fields of the Lord that day!

And you're stuck with the same problem you had before -- when thousands of trillions of tons of matter suddenly decides to make a right turn (for whatever reason), what happens to the bits of flesh-and-blood flotsam who happen to be standing on it?

Well, not much if its done right. Why would it make a right turn? It was already turning, and forces would have been applied to make it turn a little differently. Imagine a globe turning slowly, going around a big light, representing the sun. A big hand comes along, and gently keeps it facing the light a little longer than usual. Whether it was gravitational pull, or meteor impact, or whatever, you haven't demonstrated that it would be catastropic. You seem to envision some halting altogether, or great abrupt right turn. If I take a paper, with a magnet, and use another magnet under the paper to move the magnet on top, I could do it, so I leave a bug on the magnet intact. Now if I put the magnet on a floor, and whacked it with a big hammer, of course the bug would be affected, and even the magnet itself may get banged up. I think it must've been less a bash up thing, and more a required forces at work sort of thing.

Except this is not a "known fact," it's the second- and third-hand testimony in a Holy Book.

Well, why would, as the other poster says, there be worldwide records of it?

What do you suppose was happening on the rest of the planet while the sun was standing still for Joshua?

Longer darkness.

Nathan Poe · Sep 3, 2005

dad said:
No, not if indeed it changed a little quicker at some point, during a direct intervention of God, that we know happened!

Josh 10:14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.

Right, but the norm was not at play in the fields of the Lord that day!

Right.
Goddidit. There's as good an answer as you're going to get.
Shut it down, folks; question answered.

Well, not much if its done right. Why would it make a right turn? It was already turning, and forces would have been applied to make it turn a little differently.

The analogy went right over your head -- deliberately, I suspect.

Imagine a globe turning slowly, going around a big light, representing the sun.

1200 miles per hour is hardly "slowly" in human terms.

A big hand comes along, and gently keeps it facing the light a little longer than usual. Whether it was gravitational pull, or meteor impact, or whatever, you haven't demonstrated that it would be catastropic. You seem to envision some halting altogether, or great abrupt right turn. If I take a paper, with a magnet, and use another magnet under the paper to move the magnet on top, I could do it, so I leave a bug on the magnet intact.

Except you're dealing with something infintesimally smaller than a bug, and something much larger and faster than a magnet on a table. You need to think more in terms of a bug on a windshield of a speeding car.

Now if I put the magnet on a floor, and whacked it with a big hammer, of course the bug would be affected, and even the magnet itself may get banged up. I think it must've been less a bash up thing, and more a required forces at work sort of thing.

Which brings us back to the issue of the kinds of "required forces" to move a planet, particularly one that's already in motion at breakneck speed.

Well, why would, as the other poster says, there be worldwide records of it?

Longer darkness.

There would be worldwide records of it had it actually happened. If the sun's not setting in one place, that means it's not rising somewhere else.

Don't you think someone would've noticed?

Nathan Poe · Sep 3, 2005

dad said:
This is a good point, I have heard before. If the axis did change in the middle east, would it necessarily have the same effect in china? If, for example the effect was less there it may have been less noticed? Besides, do they really have records for each day back to what was it, some 1000 years BC, or whatever? Or do they just have general records, and we assume they should have some record of this?

You're joking, right? The planet only has one axis. shift its orbit, and EVERYONE's going to notice.

The sun stood still

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