The Sun Revolves Around The Earth: Scripture Cannot Lie

yeshuasavedme said:

Jesus spoke Hebrew. Hebrew people in Israel spoke Hebrew.
Torah was read in Hebrew in synagogues.
Paul spoke Hebrew to his people in Israel.
Jesus spoke Hebrew to Saul on the road to Damascus.
Pilate had Jesus' "crime" written in 3 languages nailed to the cross: Hebrew, Latin, and greek.
In Hebrew, Jesus "crime" written, first letters, spelled
Y
H
V
H
The priests were furious. All the Jews read the "crime" nailed to the cross in Hebrew and saw the tetragram.
John 19:19-
And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.

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It's very interesting that the verse you quote as evidence - John 19:20 - actually disproved your entire post and assumption. The word used for "Hebrew", in the Greek, means "the language of the Hebrews". And that is Aramaic. How can we know for sure? Just a few verses previous in verse 13 and 17, the exact same word is used - "the language of the Hebrews". And in both places the text includes specifically Aramaic words. Not Hebrew. Aramaic.
G1447 - hebraisti - Strong's Greek Lexicon (esv)

Thank you. I couldn't have proved my point any better than you just did.

yeshuasavedme said:

What language did Jesus speak | Jesus spoke Hebrew

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That link is to an article that is entirely incorrect. It is full of conjecture and assumptions. And no scholarly sources are given to back up anything that is written.

yeshuasavedme said:

So the history is fact that you deny, and the history proves, along with the Scriptures, that the Jews in Israel spoke Hebrew. You read the article with a certain bias that you have believed erroneously, and the argument goes on and on, but the Scripture Stands forever, that Jesus spoke Hebrew, Paul spoke Hebrew, all Israel spoke Hebrew, Torah was in Hebrew read in the synagogues, and on and on, and it is a very deceptive satanic deception, methinks, to try to undo the “Jewishness of Jesus” and the entire New Covenant/N.T.

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You already proved your assumption is incorrect. John 19:20. Also you had better be very, very careful invoking Satan and giving him credit for something which God, the Father actually did in His infinite wisdom and power. That is blasphemy.

In addition, the Talmud was written in Aramaic - not Hebrew. You can find this corroborate by a well known site on Judaism.
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/3162963/jewish/Why-Is-the-Talmud-in-Aramaic.htm

EclipseEventSigns said:

You already proved your assumption is incorrect. John 19:20. Also you had better be very, very careful invoking Satan and giving him credit for something which God, the Father actually did in His infinite wisdom and power. That is blasphemy.

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yeshuasavedme said:

False! I give no credit to the satans in any statement other than his/and his army of created by God evil angels deceiving men with lies, which the chief of the satans is the father of, as Jesus says.
The Talmud is NOT Scripture!

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Oh my, oh my. You deluded. Please do some research. Especially what the Talmud actually is. Good day. You aren't worth responding to anymore.

yeshuasavedme said:

So the history is fact that you deny, and the history proves, along with the Scriptures, that the Jews in Israel spoke Hebrew. You read the article with a certain bias that you have believed erroneously, and the argument goes on and on, but the Scripture Stands forever, that Jesus spoke Hebrew, Paul spoke Hebrew, all Israel spoke Hebrew, Torah was in Hebrew read in the synagogues, and on and on, and it is a very deceptive satanic deception, methinks, to try to undo the “Jewishness of Jesus” and the entire New Covenant/N.T.

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I myself do not deny that our Lord and St. Paul spoke Hebrew, because they surely would have in the Temple or Synagouge on occasion, rather, because in the New Testament our Lord actually speaks Aramaic, and so does St. Paul (“anathema” and “anathema Maranatha” are Aramaic and not Hebrew.).

Note that the Aramaic spoken by the Jews during the New Testament era was a pair of Western Aramaic dialects, Galilean and Judean, whereas the Talmud, which I view of being of no interest to Christians other than to study and understand the Rabbinical Jewish religion as it exists now, was written in an Eastern Aramaic dialect closest to Classical Mandaic, a language spoken by a heretical Gnostic sect that claims to follow John the Baptists and undergoes weekly Baptism.

yeshuasavedme said:

I read the Word of God, which includes the Scripture of the Book of Enoch, in which Enoch is taken on a tour of the heavens and sees the paths/courses of the sun, moon, and stars.

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Interesting that pretty much everything in the part of "Enoch" you spoke of is observably untrue. The sun traveling north and then east to as to ride in the east? Seriously? Even from a purely terrestrial viewpoint that's rubbish.

These paths are the ordinances of the heavenly bodies set forever, which change not

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So when can we see the sun moving west to east?

The Liturgist said:

I myself do not deny that our Lord and St. Paul spoke Hebrew, because they surely would have in the Temple or Synagouge on occasion, rather, because in the New Testament our Lord actually speaks Aramaic, and so does St. Paul (“anathema” and “anathema Maranatha” are Aramaic and not Hebrew.).

Note that the Aramaic spoken by the Jews during the New Testament era was a pair of Western Aramaic dialects, Galilean and Judean, whereas the Talmud, which I view of being of no interest to Christians other than to study and understand the Rabbinical Jewish religion as it exists now, was written in an Eastern Aramaic dialect closest to Classical Mandaic, a language spoken by a heretical Gnostic sect that claims to follow John the Baptists and undergoes weekly Baptism.

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There are 2 Talmuds - the Jerusalem (Galilean) and the Babylonian - both in Aramaic (although different dialects). But that is entirely the point. No matter whether in the Jewish homeland or through out the rest of the diaspora, Aramaic was the lingua franca and was the language used in the synagogues. And this is one of the main evidences that the New Testament was also written in Aramaic originally - and then translated as the missionaries travelled further west into Greek/Roman dominated areas.

yeshuasavedme said:

The angel, Uriel, who took Enoch on a cosmological tour of the heavens and showed Enoch all the paths/courses of all the heavenly bodies

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Oh yeah, good stuff there:

4. And first there goes forth the great luminary, named the Sun, and his circumference is like the circumference of the heaven, and he is quite filled with illuminating and heating fire. 5. The chariot on which he ascends, the wind drives, and the sun goes down from the heaven and returns through the north in order to reach the east, and is so guided that he comes to the appropriate (lit. 'that') portal and shines in the face of the heaven.

Now I'm just an old heathen, but here's something I have observed. The sun rises at. say, 0600 where my daughter lives in Denmark. About 6-7 hours later it rises in Middle Tennessee. Couple of hours after that it pops up in Los Angeles where the Cali kinfolk live We kinda lose track over the Pacific, but about 14 hours after it rises here it'll rise on the Korean fam in Seoul. And to the surprise of roughly no one, it pops up again over the Kattegat about 7 hours later, completing the trip. No detours, no veering to the north, no back tracking eastward. Just a smooth continuous movement, like it was designed by the Ultimate Engineer. not the Rube Goldberg rat's nest described in "Enoch". Speaking of which...

6. In this way he rises in the first month in the great portal, which is the fourth those six portals in the east⌉. 7. And in that fourth portal from which the sun rises in the first month are twelve window-openings, from which proceed a flame when they are opened in their season. 8. When the sun rises in the heaven, he comes forth through that fourth portal thirty mornings in succession, and sets accurately in the fourth portal in the west of the heaven. 9. And during this period the day becomes daily longer and the night nightly shorter to the thirtieth morning. 10. On that day the day is longer than the night by a ninth part, and the day amounts exactly to ten parts and the night to eight parts.

Wow, in and out of "portals", changes in direction, season differences "explained" by transit times between "portals" when the sun can't be seen, ie, night. JUst a couple of little problems there. First, the sun is always visible somewhere. When it's pitch black here I can call the folks in Seoul and find then outside walking the dog. Same with Aarhus. All depends on where on the GLOBE you're located. No "portals", the sun is always right out in the open. You'd think a "holy angel" wouild have known athat, but somehow he didn't. Nother thing. Apparently in "Enoch's" world, the days lenthen and shorten at the same rate everywhere. Not true. Different latitudes ON THE GLOBE,different day and night lengths. Old Uriel missed that too, didn't he? Also different seasons? How'd the holy angel miss all that?

Now I won't suggest that the rest "Enoch" is as ridiculous as THE BOOK OF THE COURSES OF THE HEAVENLY LUMINARIES, because I haven't read it all. I prefer hogwash in smaller quantities, and there's at least 10 years supply in the BOTCOTHL alone. But one thng is certain, pretty much every worth in the "Heavenly Luminaries" book is observably, laughably, false.

showed Enoch all the courses/paths which the sun and moon run around the globe/world/earth, in the heavens each year.

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And every word of it rubbish.

The ordinances of the heavenly bodies do not change

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Which is to say that it was rubbish then just as it is now.

They still are, though men mess with the calendars, and have to correct them time to time

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Still 365.25 days, the time it takes for the eartth to orbit the sun. The Hebrew calendar had it as 360 days, which required annual adjustments.

cause men's faulty calendars get out of sync with the true heavenly calendar set by God from the beginning.

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Not true. One orbit is not precisely 365 days, and adjust it every 4 years to sync up.

Israel kept the true calendar

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A lunar calenday, with a 360 day year, which was 5.25 days short every year! More rubbish.

Jipsah said:

Still 365.25 days, the time it takes for the eartth to orbit the sun. The Hebrew calendar had it as 360 days, which required annual adjustments.

Not true. One orbit is not precisely 365 days, and adjust it every 4 years to sync up.

A lunar calenday, with a 360 day year, which was 5.25 days short every year! More rubbish.

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Have to correct this very common false assumption. The Jewish year is NOT 360 days long. It has never been in the temple era and beyond. It was always 12 lunar months in length. 12 * 29.5 = 354 days. Since that is about 11 days short of a solar year, an additional leap month was added every 2 or 3 years. In those years, it was 384 days long. Lots of people who are not educated in the Jewish calendar, state the year is 360 days assuming the time periods in Revelation work out to 360 day years. But this can be easily shown to work out using the actual 354/384 day year length.

EclipseEventSigns said:

There are 2 Talmuds - the Jerusalem (Galilean) and the Babylonian - both in Aramaic (although different dialects). But that is entirely the point. No matter whether in the Jewish homeland or through out the rest of the diaspora, Aramaic was the lingua franca and was the language used in the synagogues. And this is one of the main evidences that the New Testament was also written in Aramaic originally - and then translated as the missionaries travelled further west into Greek/Roman dominated areas.

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I am aware of the Jerusalem Talmud but given how unimportant it is in Judaism compared to the Babylonian I saw no reason to mention it. Interestingly however its three year Torah/Haftarah lectuonary is the only known example of a three year lectionary before the Year A/Year B/Year C disaster of the Novus Ordo lectionary and the Revised Common Lectionary and certain other Protestant lectionaries like the now disused 1979 Episcopal BCP lectionary*, which followed the same plan. Although Year D, proposed by a Presbyterian seminary professor, would do a lot to fix the RCL.

*This lectionary unlike its contemporaries at least did not delete 1 Corinthians 11:27-30 from the Maundy Thursday lesson, although the old one year lectionaries, which are stilll in use in some churches, for example, the Continuing Anglican Churches in the US, the large number of Church of England parishes which still use the 1662 BCP, and the Roman Catholic churches and monasteries where they still celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass in all of its beauty. And the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and the Church of the East never touched the new three year lectionaries with a 30 foot pole, and likely never will. Indeed even of the Eastern Catholic Churches, those who were once called the Unia, such as the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, the Melkite Catholic Church and the Coptic Catholic Church, whose liturgy is similar to the Catholic liturgy, continued using the liturgy of the Orthodox churches they were once a part of, but the Maronites I believe did adopt the three year lectionary along with other disastrous Vatican II style liturgical reforms.

The Liturgist said:

I am aware of the Jerusalem Talmud but given how unimportant it is in Judaism compared to the Babylonian I saw no reason to mention it.

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I'm amazed that people in this discussion don't seem to understand the importance of facts. You say you saw no reason to mention the existence of an Aramaic document written in the homeland of the Jewish people that was used weekly in their synagogues? Whether or not it is used in modern Judaism is entirely not the point. The fact that it even exists is the point. That is was written in Aramaic and used in the religious life of the community is evidence of the fact that Aramaic was the lingua franca of the people. And....this goes a long way to show that the New Testament was first written in Aramaic for exactly the same reasons.

yeshuasavedme said:

The Word of God declares that the earth is the center of the creation, and the heavens and earth are of a piece, and the heavens were stretched out from the earth on day 2 of creation week, between the divided in two waters of creation.

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Is it possible that one or both of the following is true:

1. the scriptures do not teach that the sun orbits the earth?
2. the interpretation of the scriptures as 'geocentric' is an error?

EclipseEventSigns said:

Have to correct this very common false assumption. The Jewish year is NOT 360 days long. It has never been in the temple era and beyond. It was always 12 lunar months in length. 12 * 29.5 = 354 days.

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I stand corrected, thank you!

Xeno.of.athens said:

Is it possible that one or both of the following is true:

1. the scriptures do not teach that the sun orbits the earth?
2. the interpretation of the scriptures as 'geocentric' is an error?

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Yes, and yes. "Enoch", however, does have the nonsensical idea of a flying sun that changes directions at odd random.