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The Sumerian Flood Narrative

Split Rock

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I'll take someone's valid questions to a point; but when they show absolutely no desire to assimilate what I'm saying, and when every point I make brings up another question or two ... it's time to quit.

Please explain how I was doing this. I did "assimilate" what you had posted earlier, and my questions were all sincere. You claimed Satan had "taken over" the serpent, and all I asked for was some scriptural support for this claim, and if you considered it Basic Doctrine or not. I have seen both claims that the serpent was Satan and claims that he had used the serpent here in this forum. Neither claim makes any sense to me, since A. The serpent was the one punished by God and B. If the serpent was Satan, he should still be crawling on his belly eating dirt.
 
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Split Rock

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WAS THERE AN EVENT WHEREIN THE KNOWN WORLD OF THAT DAY WAS INUNDATED?

The major volcanic explosion of Hekla 4 in Iceland, which spewed out massive amounts of larva, coupled with a close encounter with a passing comet and a Tunguska like fireball, are believed to have been major issues in the inundation of Ireland that is said to have been left waste for 30 odd years, and the devastating flood around the Mediterranean Sea, which was the known civilized world in the days of Noah around 2350 B.C, the time when this catastrophic event is said to have occurred.

To those who are interested, I would advise them to read the “Report on Second Cambridge Conference,” an article by Mark Bailey Posted December 15 1997. Following is a small extract from said article.

. Marie-Agnes Courty (CNRS, Grignon) presented new archaeological data concerning a catastrophe inferred to have occurred in the Middle East c.2350 BC. She emphasized the importance of high-time-resolution archaeological investigations in the assessment of natural catastrophes on societal collapse, the data in this case indicating the combination of a burnt surface horizon and air blast, consistent with a Tunguska-like fireball, but possibly also a major volcanic event.

The evidence for regional environmental change at about the same time was confirmed and extended by Mike Baillie (Queen’s University Belfast), whose tree-ring analyses of Irish bog oaks showed very significant narrowing of the rings around the year 2345 BC, associated with identified tephra from the Icelandic Hekla 4 volcano, dated to 2310 +/- 20 BC. This suggests a volcanic origin of the c. 2350 BC event identified by Courty, but the period in question is also associated with other events, including floods, the creation of new lakes and even the traditional start of Chinese history! In Baillie’s words, 2345 BC ‘is a classic marker date, i.e. a date which will show up on a regular basis in studies of various kinds’.


I believe that the flood that occurred in Noah’ day, around 2,350 BC, was an event that would have been recorded and handed down by a witness of that era as a world-wide flood.

There are some scholars who claim that the ark would have been made of Reeds, but this is contrary to that which is revealed in scripture. A rectangular chest-like ark built of timber logs, would of necessity, have to be sealed inside and out with bitumen to stop it from leaking, but why would you bother to seal a boat made of self floating reeds? And somehow, a reed ark with three floors, just doesn’t sit right with me.

If a (אמות) אמה, or cubit, which is said by some scholars to equal 48.0 to 57.6 cm, or 18.9 to 22.7 inches, then working on the lowest estimate of a cubit, which is 18.9 inches, the ark would have been at least 472.5 feet in length. A pretty fair lump of a floating rectangular chest in any man’s language.

The Hebrew letter for “K” is similar to a backward facing “C,” while the Hebrew letter for “G” is also similar to a backward facing “C,” with a small tail. It is easy to understand that the early scholars who translated the Hebrew to English, could mistakenly have translated, “Kopherwood” which is any wood that is covered with bitumen, as “Gopherwood.”

Concerning the flood, I myself had a visitation from a god the other night, and he commanded me to build a seven story ark and to fill each deck with fish tanks filled with Carp, and I said to him, “Why the hell would you want each deck filled with fish tanks filled with carp,” to which he replied, “Cos I want to be the first god to own a multi-storied Carp-ark.”

But leaving all jokes aside, the “Flood Story” is a fascinating subject. Many cultures from all across the globe report in their myths, a great flood or cataclysm which besieged the earth. One interesting account in particular is the ancient Sumerian/Babylonian myth which SUPPOSEDLY (Repeat) Supposedly pre-dates the Hebrew flood myth by thousands of years and is as follow:

I’m not too sure from where the following (IN BLUE) came from. I am assuming that it was googled up by somebody and posted to me, and which I found interesting enough to file away.

Over 2000 years before George Smith’s discovery of the deluge tablets in Iraq, there existed an account of the Chaldean (pre-Babylonian) flood myth. Berosus, an ancient Chaldean historian living in the time of Alexander the Great in the 4th century B.C.E, relayed to the Greeks the antiquity of his people’s deluge myth in the following words:

“After the death of Ardates, his son Xisuthrus reigned eighteen sari. In his time happened a great deluge; the history of which is thus described. The deity Cronos appeared to him in a vision, and warned him that upon the fifteenth day of the month Daesius there would be a flood, by which mankind would be destroyed. He therefore enjoined him to write a history of the beginning, procedure, and conclusion of all things, and to bury it in the city of the Sun at Sippara; and to build a vessel, and take with him into it his friends and relations; and to convey on board everything necessary to sustain life, together with all the different animals, both birds and quadrupeds, and trust himself fearlessly to the deep.

Having asked the Deity whither he was to sail, he was answered, To the Gods; upon which he offered up a prayer for the good of mankind. He then obeyed the divine admonition and built a vessel five stadia in length, and two in breadth. Into this he put everything which he had prepared, and last of all conveyed into it his wife, his children, and his friends. After the flood had been upon the earth, and was in time abated, Xisuthrus sent out birds from the vessel; which not finding any food, nor any place whereupon they might rest their feet, returned to him again. After an interval of some days, he sent them forth a second time; and they now returned with their feet tinged with mud. He made a trial a third time with these birds; but they returned to him no more: from whence he judged that the surface of the earth had appeared above the waters.

He therefore made an opening in the vessel, and upon looking out found that it was stranded upon the side of some mountain; upon which he immediately quitted it with his wife, his daughter, and the pilot. Xisuthrus then paid his adoration to the earth: and, having constructed an altar, offered sacrifices to the gods…” .



It should be noted that the account of the deluge relayed in the tablets discovered by George Smith differ only very slightly from Berosus’ account, which differs only slightly from the story handed down by the Chaldean Abraham, who lived with Noah for about 58 years before the old patriarch died some 350 years after the great flood.

The Miao flood account from China, which has 8 survivors, with Noa as their head, gives the wickedness of man as the reason for the flood, and says, "These did not God's will nor returned His affection. But fought with each other defying the Godhead. Their leaders shook fists in the face of the Mighty."

Some cultures have their ancestors surviving on giant reed beds. The Greek story has them surviving in a chest, Noah has the ark.

The survivors were often a single family. An Australian aboriginal account has Ngadgja, the Supreme One, who is the great Father, telling Gajara to take his wife, his sons, and his sons' wives.

The Masai account from East Africa has Tumbainot taking his two wives, his six sons, and their wives, the Masai like to double up.

A Hawaiian story has Nuu (Noah, Noa, Nuu.) taking his wife and three sons.

Noah took his wife, his three sons, and their wives.

Genesis describes Noah sending out birds to see if there was yet dry land.

In the Hopi account also, they sent out birds to find land.

An Australian aboriginal account has a cuckoo not returning because it found land.

The Masai account has Tumbainot sending out a dove, which returned because it had no place to rest.

The Masai account has four rainbows signifying that God's wrath was over.

A Hawaiian account has the god Kane leaving a rainbow as a perpetual sign of his forgiveness.

Could the Hawaiian Kane, be the same as “Cain the shining one,” who killed his brother Abel in a previous age of man? Was “Cain,” the spiritual “Son of God,” who descended in the days of “Jared,” which name means, “descending” and possessed the body of Jared while he was with his wife, which union produced the giant “Enoch,” the first born spiritual son of “Cain” who never experienced death.

The Zulu’s are the descendants of Ham, and Ham, the Father of the Zulu’s, is the great grandson of Enoch. The God of the Zulu’s, is “Unkulunkulu,” which name means, “Great great grandfather.”

Genesis says that the rainbow would be a reminder that God would never again destroy the world "With a Flood."

The Flood of Noah didn’t come as a surprise. It had been preached on for four generations. But something strange happened when Enoch was 65, from which time "he walked with God." Enoch was given a prophecy that as long as his firstborn son “Methusulah” was alive, the judgment of the flood would be withheld; but as soon as he died, the flood would be sent forth.

Enoch named his firstborn to reflect this prophecy. The name Methuselah comes from two roots: muth, a root that means "death;" and from shalach, which means "to bring," or "to send forth." Thus, the name Methuselah signifies, "his death shall bring." And, indeed, in the year that Methuselah died, the flood came.

Remembering that Abraham was the son of “Terah,” the high priest of the Chaldean city of Ur, and he was 58 years old when Noah the chaldean died and would have heard the flood story from his oldest patriarch, could the Chaldean name “Ardates,” mean, “When he dies it will happen?” And could the name “Xisuthrus” have the same meaning as the name “Noah” which is, “One who brings relief or comfort?”

The Chaldean month of “Daesius,” is the second month, which corresponds with the biblical account that it was in the second month that the flood came. But there is a two day discrepancy. The biblical account is the 17th day, whereas the other is the 15th day.

It is written in the ancient records that Eve knew that the world was to be destroyed by water and by fire, but she didn’t know in what order they would come. Wanting to leave a written account of their life and times, she was stuck with the problem of what material should be used for those records. If they used clay tablets, and the fire came first, the clay tablets would bake hard and survive, but should the flood come first, the clay tablets would dissolve and their record would be lost.

But should they etch their record on stone, the flood would not affect them, but should the fiery destruction come first, the stone would crack and crumble into dust with the intense heat and the records would be lost. It was finally decided to engrave their history on stone tablets and wrap them in clay, upon which their history would be recorded also.

The more that I am forced to look at the flood accounts, the more I am convinced that some catastrophic event occurred some 4350 years ago, which caused worldwide devastating floods and tsunamis, of which the more accurate account, can be found in the Hebrew culture that came down from the Chaldean Abraham, and his family, who have remained intact as a racial religion for some 4,000 years.

Could the lakes and floods which Mike Baillie of (Queen’s University Belfast), suggests were formed around the time of the 2350 BC event identified by Courty, have been the result of impact, strikes, by a swarm of meteors that crossed earth’s orbit causing world-wide tsunamis and craters which have long since filled with water?

Please make your posts longer, they are too short. :wave:
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by The Tongue WAS THERE AN EVENT WHEREIN THE KNOWN WORLD OF THAT DAY WAS INUNDATED?
Please make your posts longer, they are too short. :wave:
:D
Long posts wear out my mouse wheel...

images
 
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Jamin4422

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1. No experts believe that.
Don't act like you never heard of The Tablet Theory[FONT=arial,sans-serif] or the Wiseman Hypothesis. Just because you happen to believe the [/FONT]Documentary Hypothesis. There are people that believe Genesis was Originally on Clay Tablets. Even if you lean toward revisionism.

3. What was his father-in-law's name?
Jethro, wow that is unusual, we are having a graduate level discussion about the scriptures and then you ask me a grade school level question?
 
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juvenissun

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'Thou shalt then thus speak unto them:
"I have learned that Enlil is hostile to me, (Note: the Spirit)
So that I cannot reside in your city,
Nor set my foot in Enlil's territory.
To the Deep I will therefore go down,
To dwell with my lord Ea.

But upon you he will shower down abundance,

....

On the seventh day the ship was completed.
The launching was very difficult,
So that they had to shift the floor planks above and below,
Until two-thirds of the structure had gone into the water.

.....


Shamash (Sumerian sun god) had set for me a stated time:

'When he who orders unease at night
Will shower down a rain of blight,
Board thou the ship and batten up the gate!'


That stated time had arrived:

'He who orders unease at night showers down a rain of blight.'
I watched the appearance of the weather.
The weather was awesome to behold.
I boarded the ship and battened up the gate.


To batten up the (whole) ship, to Puzar-Amurri, the boatman,
I handed over the structure together with its contents.

With the first glow of dawn,
A black cloud rose up from the horizon.
Inside it Adad thunders,
While Shallat and Hanish go in front,
Moving as heralds over hill and plain.
Erragal tears out the posts;
Forth comes Ninurta and causes the dikes to follow.
The Anunnaki lift up the torches,
Setting the land ablaze with their glare.
Consternation over Adad reaches to the heavens,


Turning to blackness all that had been light.

The wide land was shattered like a pot!
For one day the south-storm blew,

Gathering speed as it blew, submerging the mountains,
Overtaking the people like a battle.
No one can see his fellow,
Nor can the people be recognized from heaven.

....

Six days and six nights
Blows the flood wind, as the south-storm sweeps the land.
When the seventh day arrived,
The flood (-carrying) south-storm subsided in the battle,
Which it had fought like an army.
The sea-grew quiet, the tempest was still, the flood ceased.
I looked at the weather. stillness had set in,
And all of mankind had returned to clay.


The landscape was as level as a flat roof.

I opened a hatch, and light fell on my face.
Bowing low, I sat and wept,
Tears running down my face.
I looked about for coast lines in the expanse of the sea:
In each of fourteen (regions)
There emerged a region (-mountain).

On Mount Nisir the ship came to a halt.
Mount Nisir held the ship fast,
Allowing -no motion.


[For six days the ship is held fast by Mount Nisir.]

When the seventh day arrived,
I sent forth and set free a dove.
The dove went forth, but came back;
There was no resting-place for it and she turned round.

.[/size][/color][/font]

This is the first time I read this translated version of the Sumerian flood description. I would have to say that it is VERY DIFFERENT from the description of the Biblical Flood.

Among many, two things are VERY IMPORTANT:

1. The source of water and the way water drowned the land.
2. The way that the flood water receded.

The Sumerian flood description is much more like a flood caused by a super storm. Such a flood is not able to drown the earth. The Biblical Flood is an entirely different one.
 
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Doveaman

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Scholars agree
No, they don't.
(and it should be clear to anyone who has read both stories)
Except that it isn't.
that the Noachian deluge of the Bible is derived from the flood tale in the Epic of Gilgamesh.
Correction:

1) We have two different versions of the same event.

2) Although the versions differ, they both acknowledge there was an event.

3) One version is the human inspired version, and the other version is the God inspired version.

4) The God inspired version reprimands and corrects the human inspired version: "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction...." - (2 Tim 3:16).

Case Closed.
 
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Doveaman

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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Jethro the Midianite was the father of Zipporah, the first wife of Moses. Exodus 3.
Jethro, wow that is unusual, we are having a graduate level discussion about the scriptures and then you ask me a grade school level question?

I misread Jamin's run-on sentence as if he were suggesting Moses had an Egyptian priest as a father-in-law, and that was from whom he had learned.

My mistake.

Don't act like you never heard of The Tablet Theory or the Wiseman Hypothesis. Just because you happen to believe the Documentary Hypothesis. There are people that believe Genesis was Originally on Clay Tablets. Even if you lean toward revisionism.

No, I hadn't heard of the Tablet Theory. And having just read up on it, I can see why. No one takes it seriously.
 
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Split Rock

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It contradicts the God inspired version. :)

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction.." - (2 Tim 3:16).

Or does it just contradict your fallible interpretation of "the God inspired version?"
 
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AV1611VET

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Or does it just contradict your fallible interpretation of "the God inspired version?"
Whose fallible interpretation should he use? yours? someone who says we should be hunting witches?

How many fallible interpretations does the moon have?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by Doveaman It contradicts the God inspired version. :)

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction.." - (2 Tim 3:16).
Or does it just contradict your fallible interpretation of "the God inspired version?"
My bro, the Apostle Paul, was quite good a creating dissensions among various Jews in his days. This particular event especially comes to mind when Paul brought up about the "resurrection" of the dead.

Luke 2:34 Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary His mother, "Behold! this One is destined for the falling and resurrection of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against

Search for 'Genesis 1:1' in the version

Acts 23:6 and Paul having known that the one part are Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, cried out in the sanhedrim, "Men, brethren, I am a Pharisee--son of a Pharisee--concerning hope and resurrection of dead men I am judged."
7 And he having spoken this, there came a dissension of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees, and the crowd was divided,
8 for Sadducees indeed say there is no resurrection, nor messenger, nor spirit, but Pharisees confess both.
9 And there came a great cry, and the scribes of the Pharisees' part having arisen, were striving, saying, "No evil do we find in this man; and if a spirit spake to him, or a messenger, we may not fight against God;'

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G386&t=KJV
Strong's Number G386 matches the Greek ἀνάστασις (anastasis), which occurs 42 times in 40 verses in the Greek concordance

...
 
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Split Rock

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Whose fallible interpretation should he use? yours? someone who says we should be hunting witches?

You know AVET, all I ask is that you guys acknowledge that your interpretation of scripture, whatever conclusions you come up with, is fallible and not "The Inerrant Word of God." So, as to your question, you can use whichever one you want, as long as you don't make excessive claims about it. Problem is, you guys don't want to do that, because then you lose the weapon of "Biblical Infallibility."
 
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AV1611VET

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You know AVET, all I ask is that you guys acknowledge that your interpretation of scripture, whatever conclusions you come up with, is fallible...
Why should we do that?

You guys do it enough for us.
... and not "The Inerrant Word of God."
God's Word is inerrant ... errant interpretations aren't.
So, as to your question, you can use whichever one you want, as long as you don't make excessive claims about it.
I don't bow to your rules.

Jesus walking on water constitutes an 'excessive claim' to you guys; does it not?

Jesus walking on water constitutes an 'errant interpretation' to you guys; does it not?
Problem is, you guys don't want to do that, because then you lose the weapon of "Biblical Infallibility."
I disagree ... Biblical infallibility stands on its own.

God tells us how the Bible can be falsified; and as yet, It hasn't been.

I'll ask you again though, because this is a good point that I think makes you uneasy:

Of the six natural explanations as to how we got our moon, which one do you subscribe to, and is it 'infallible' as well?

If you say it is infallible, then your point about infallibility can take a hike.

Look in the mirror.
 
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AV1611VET

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You know AVET, all I ask is that you guys acknowledge that your interpretation of scripture, whatever conclusions you come up with, is fallible and not "The Inerrant Word of God." So, as to your question, you can use whichever one you want, as long as you don't make excessive claims about it. Problem is, you guys don't want to do that, because then you lose the weapon of "Biblical Infallibility."
Here's a second point I'd like to make:

Why is it that those who interpret the Scriptures allegorically don't seem to bother you at all?

Those who interpret Genesis 1, for example, to fit the Big Bang paradigm nary get a hoot out of you guys, does it?

That's because ... in my opinion ... the only thing that really bothers you guys is the literal interpretation of the Bible.

That's what brings you guys out of the woodwork, demanding we admit 'our interpretation could be infallible' ... isn't it?
 
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Mr Strawberry

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God's Word is inerrant
Words are just labels, or approximations if you like. By definition it is impossible for them to be entirely inerrant. So your statement that God's word is inerrant is silly. If He is using words then he has already conceded inerrancy.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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You guys do it enough for us.
Originally Posted by Split Rock ... and not "The Inerrant Word of God."

God's Word is inerrant ... errant interpretations aren't..
These characters Jesus spoke to weren't very inerrant in their interpretations of the Scriptures ;)

KJV) Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, "Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God"

Mark 12:27 "He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err".

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
Jesus vs the Pharisees
Words are just labels, or approximations if you like. By definition it is impossible for them to be entirely inerrant. So your statement that God's word is inerrant is silly. If He is using words then he has already conceded inerrancy.
Uh oh....:)

.....
 
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TLK Valentine

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Just another example of you refusing point blank to face the truth when you don't like it.

That's the point of religious insecurity -- it's all about redefining reality to one's personal comfort rather than accept it for what it is.
 
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