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In contrast to those stories/events, the religion of Judaism has no concept of a virgin birth in their beliefs.It is interesting, and I'll admit I haven't looked much into it for obvious reasons -- given that I don't believe one version of the Virgin Birth narrative, I'm not likely to believe another.
(it does, however, confirm my maxim about birth stories and heroic myths in general -- we simply can't accept the idea that great people had ordinary origins; we need to embellish those stories to enhance their greatness.
The miracle of the newborn Jesus speaking to reassure his mother was particularly a hoot.)
Would be interesting to discuss the non- theology aspects of that. Here is a thread on it for those interested
http://www.christianforums.com/t7450766/
The Cognitum - Genesis revisionism gone mad
Thank you. Here are a few more [and the author of this site believes in UFOs]And here are some sources concerning the dating of the Torah (plenty more, of course, but this is a start:
Torah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Friedman, Richard Elliott. Who Wrote the Bible? N.Y. Harper and Row, 1989.
Halpern, Baruch, The First Historians: The Hebrew Bible and History. San Francisco: Harper, 1988
Speiser, E.A., Genesis. NY, Doubleday, 1964. (Anchor Bible)
There is no record of a newborn Jesus speaking to His mother, nor is there much written about Him until He came of age and God was ready for Him to carry out the ministry of the father. Presumably, He was around 30 at the time. Born to a carpenter, most likely He followed His father's trade, but none of that has any particular relevance to his ministry. It simply affirms that He was God made flesh. Until it was time for Him to go out into the world, He wasn't much different from other young men other than that He had a perfect understanding of the Scriptures.It is interesting, and I'll admit I haven't looked much into it for obvious reasons -- given that I don't believe one version of the Virgin Birth narrative, I'm not likely to believe another.
(it does, however, confirm my maxim about birth stories and heroic myths in general -- we simply can't accept the idea that great people had ordinary origins; we need to embellish those stories to enhance their greatness. The miracle of the newborn Jesus speaking to reassure his mother was particularly a hoot.)
In contrast to those stories/events, the religion of Judaism has no concept of a virgin birth in their beliefs.
So then, all the authors of the New Testament were liars who were only interested in selling their books. Too bad they didn't get royalties, because their familes would be LOADED!! If two people record an event that they had knowledge of, one later than the other, whoever wrote of the event last MUST HAVE plagerized the first. I hope you're never on a jury involving a plagerism case.And chances are, neither would Christianity if Matthew had not lifted (clumsily, I might add) a bad Greek translation of Isaiah 7:14 and worked it into his birth story. (Luke also mentions a virgin birth, but it's already known that he lifted material from Matthew)
There is no record of a newborn Jesus speaking to His mother,
nor is there much written about Him until He came of age and God was ready for Him to carry out the ministry of the father.
Presumably, He was around 30 at the time. Born to a carpenter, most likely He followed His father's trade, but none of that has any particular relevance to his ministry.
It simply affirms that He was God made flesh. Until it was time for Him to go out into the world, He wasn't much different from other young men other than that He had a perfect understanding of the Scriptures.
However, from the virgin birth to the resurrection, He was and remains the son of God. It's sad that you reject that knowledge, because the sacrifice of Jesus was the salvation of man.
So then, all the authors of the New Testament were liars who were only interested in selling their books. Too bad they didn't get royalties, because their familes would be LOADED!! If two people record an event that they had knowledge of, one later than the other, whoever wrote of the event last MUST HAVE plagerized the first. I hope you're never on a jury involving a plagerism case.
I get it. It's your opinion that it's all a big fraud. There is no God and none of this means anything. Then why are you here? Go fishing! Discussing a god who doesn't exist with people who believe otherwise is a waste of your time.
So then, all the authors of the New Testament were liars who were only interested in selling their books.
I like fishingI get it. It's your opinion that it's all a big fraud. There is no God and none of this means anything. Then why are you here? Go fishing! Discussing a god who doesn't exist with people who believe otherwise is a waste of your time.
(it does, however, confirm my maxim about birth stories and heroic myths in general -- we simply can't accept the idea that great people had ordinary origins; we need to embellish those stories to enhance their greatness. The miracle of the newborn Jesus speaking to reassure his mother was particularly a hoot.)
There is no record of a newborn Jesus speaking to His mother, nor is there much written about Him until He came of age and God was ready for Him to carry out the ministry of the father. Presumably, He was around 30 at the time. Born to a carpenter, most likely He followed His father's trade, but none of that has any particular relevance to his ministry. It simply affirms that He was God made flesh. Until it was time for Him to go out into the world, He wasn't much different from other young men other than that He had a perfect understanding of the Scriptures.
However, from the virgin birth to the resurrection, He was and remains the son of God. It's sad that you reject that knowledge, because the sacrifice of Jesus was the salvation of man.
A portion of the Epic of Gilgamesh, ca 2000 B.C.
Shurippak -a city which thou knowest,
(And) which on Euphrates' banks is set-
That city was ancient, (as were) the gods within it,
When their heart led the great gods to produce the flood.
There were Anu, their father,
Valiant Enlil, their counselor, (Note: the god of the wind)
Ninurta, their herald,
Ennuge, their irrigator.
Ninigiku-Ea was also present with them;
Their words he repeats to the reed-hut:
'Reed-hut, reed-hut! Wall! Wall!
Reed-hut, hearken! Wall, reflect!
Man of Shuruppak, son of Ubar-Tutu,
Tear down (this) house, build a ship!
Give up possessions, seek thou life.
Despise property and keep the soul alive.
Aboard the ship take thou the seed of all living things.
The ship that thou shalt build,
Her dimensions shall be to measure.
Equal shall be her width and her length.
Like the Apsu thou shalt ceil her.'
I understood, and I said to Ea, my lord:
'Behold, my lord, what thou hast thus ordered,
I shall be honoured to carry out.
But what shall I answer the city, the people and elders?'
Ea opened his mouth to speak,
Saying to me, his servant:
'Thou shalt then thus speak unto them:
"I have learned that Enlil is hostile to me, (Note: the Spirit)
So that I cannot reside in your city,
Nor set my foot in Enlil's territory.
To the Deep I will therefore go down,
To dwell with my lord Ea.
But upon you he will shower down abundance,
The choicest birds, the rarest fishes.
The land shall have its fill of harvest riches.
He who at dusk orders the hush-greens,
Will shower down upon you a rain of wheat.
With the first glow of dawn,
The land was gathered about me.
(too fragmentary for translation]
The little ones carried bitumen,
While the grown ones brought all else that was needful.
On the fifth day I laid her framework.
One (whole) acre was her floor space, (660' X 660')
Ten dozen cubits the height of each of her walls,
Ten dozen cubits each edge of the square deck.
I laid out the shape of her sides and joined her together.
I provided her with six decks,
Dividing her (thus) into seven parts.
Her floor plan I divided into nine parts.
I hammered water-plugs into her.
I saw to the punting-poles and laid in supplies.
Six 'sar' (measures = 8,000 gallons), of bitumen I poured into the furnace,
Three sar of asphalt I also poured inside.
Three sar of the basket-bearers transferred,
Aside from the one sar of oil which the calking consumed,
And the two sar of oil which the boatman stowed away.
Bullocks I slaughtered for the people,
And I killed sheep every day.
Must, red wine, oil, and white wine
I gave the workmen to drink, as though river water,
That they might feast as on New Year's Day. . . .
On the seventh day the ship was completed.
The launching was very difficult,
So that they had to shift the floor planks above and below,
Until two-thirds of the structure had gone into the water.
Whatever I had I laded upon her.
Whatever I had of silver I laded upon her,
Whatever I had of gold I laded upon her,
Whatever I had of all the living beings I laded upon her.
All my family and kin I made go aboard the ship.
The beasts of the field, the wild creatures of the field,
All the craftsmen I made go aboard.
Shamash (Sumerian sun god) had set for me a stated time:
'When he who orders unease at night
Will shower down a rain of blight,
Board thou the ship and batten up the gate!'
That stated time had arrived:
'He who orders unease at night showers down a rain of blight.'
I watched the appearance of the weather.
The weather was awesome to behold.
I boarded the ship and battened up the gate.
To batten up the (whole) ship, to Puzar-Amurri, the boatman,
I handed over the structure together with its contents.
With the first glow of dawn,
A black cloud rose up from the horizon.
Inside it Adad thunders,
While Shallat and Hanish go in front,
Moving as heralds over hill and plain.
Erragal tears out the posts;
Forth comes Ninurta and causes the dikes to follow.
The Anunnaki lift up the torches,
Setting the land ablaze with their glare.
Consternation over Adad reaches to the heavens,
Turning to blackness all that had been light.
The wide land was shattered like a pot!
For one day the south-storm blew,
Gathering speed as it blew, submerging the mountains,
Overtaking the people like a battle.
No one can see his fellow,
Nor can the people be recognized from heaven.
The gods were frightened by the deluge,
And, shrinking back, they ascended to the heaven of Anu.
The gods cowered like dogs
Crouched against the outer wall.
Ishtar cried out like a woman in travail,
The sweet-voiced mistress of the gods moans aloud:
'The olden days are alas turned to clay,
Because I bespoke evil in the Assembly of the gods,
How could I bespeak evil in the Assembly of the gods,
Ordering battle for the destruction of my people,
When it is I myself who give birth to my people!
Like the spawn of the fishes they fill the sea!'
The Anunnaki gods weep with her,
he gods, all humbled, sit and weep,
Their lips drawn tight. . . . one and all.
Six days and six nights
Blows the flood wind, as the south-storm sweeps the land.
When the seventh day arrived,
The flood (-carrying) south-storm subsided in the battle,
Which it had fought like an army.
The sea-grew quiet, the tempest was still, the flood ceased.
I looked at the weather. stillness had set in,
And all of mankind had returned to clay.
The landscape was as level as a flat roof.
I opened a hatch, and light fell on my face.
Bowing low, I sat and wept,
Tears running down my face.
I looked about for coast lines in the expanse of the sea:
In each of fourteen (regions)
There emerged a region (-mountain).
On Mount Nisir the ship came to a halt.
Mount Nisir held the ship fast,
Allowing -no motion.
[For six days the ship is held fast by Mount Nisir.]
When the seventh day arrived,
I sent forth and set free a dove.
The dove went forth, but came back;
There was no resting-place for it and she turned round.
Then I sent forth and set free a swallow.
The swallow went forth, but came back,
There was no resting-place for it and she turned round.
Then I sent forth and set free a raven.
The raven went forth and, seeing that the waters had diminished,
He eats, circles, caws, and turns not round.
Then I let out (all) to the four winds
And offered a sacrifice.
I poured out a libation on the top of the mountain.
Seven and seven cult-vessels I set up,
Upon their plate-stands I heaped cane, cedarwood, and myrtle.
The gods smelled the savour,
The gods smelled the sweet savour,
The gods crowded like flies about the sacrificer.
As soon as the great goddess arrived,
She lifted up the great jewels which Anu had fashioned to her liking:
'Ye gods here, as surely as this lapis
Upon my neck I shall -not forget,
I shall be mindful of these days, forgetting (them) never.
Let the gods come to the offering:
(But) let not Enlil (wind or spirit) come to the offering,
For he, unreasoning, brought on the deluge
And my people consigned to destruction.'
As soon as Enlil arrived,
And saw the ship, Enlil was wroth,
He was filled with wrath against the Igigi gods:
'Has some living soul escaped?
No man was to survive the destruction!'
Ninurta opened his mouth to speak,
Saying to valiant Enlil:
'Who other than Ea can devise plans?
It is Ea alone who knows every matter.'
Ea opened his mouth to speak,
Saying to valiant Enlil:
'Thou wisest of the gods, thou hero,
How couldst thou, unreasoning, bring on the deluge?
On the sinner impose his sin,
On the transgressor impose his transgression!
(Yet) be lenient, lest he be cut off, Be patient,
lest he be dislodged
Instead of thy bringing on the deluge,
Would that a lion had risen up to diminish mankind!
Instead of thy brining on the deluge,
Would that a wolf had risen up to diminish mankind!
Instead of thy bringing on the deluge,
Would that a famine had risen up to lay low mankind!
Instead of thy bringing on the deluge,
Would that pestilence had risen up to smite down mankind!
It was not I who disclosed the secret of the great gods.
I let Atrahasis (epithed of Utnapishtim) see a dream,
And he perceived the secret of the gods.
Now then take counsel in regard to him!'
Thereupon Enlil went aboard the ship.
Holding me by the hand, he took me aboard.
He took my wife aboard and made (her) kneel by my side.
Standing between us, he touched our foreheads to bless us:
'Hitherto Utnapishtim has been but human.
Henceforth Utnapishtim and his wife shall be like unto us gods.
Utnapishtim shall reside far away, at the mouth of the rivers!'
Thus they took me and made me reside far away,
At the mouth of the rivers.
When their heart led the great gods to produce the flood.
The Gospels of Thomas speak specifically about Jesus' childhood. They are not very favorable and probably at least one reasons why they are not included in the bible.
Is there more than one?"Gospels of Thomas"?
What is so heretical about the gospel of Thomas, found in the Nag Hamadi scripture. Much of what is found in the text can be found in the bible. The gospel of Thomas should be viewed as a source of Truth.
Afterall, if much of it is the words of Jesus then why can't the rest of it be the words of Jesus? It places a new perspective on the word of Christ if what can be found within it can be believed to be true.
Is there more than one?
In otherwords, questions reamin about it's validity and veracity, which is probably why it is not included in the Bible.
Jesus said that not one jot or whittle would pass away before He returned,
He also said there would be many false doctrines that would deceive many.
Any text that doesn't acknowledge that Jesus is the Messiah and the son of God has to be considered suspect.
Most good frauds are 90% truth.
Luke spent a lot of time talking to Mary. So we learn the most about his childhood from Luke. Although John spent time with Mary also. But he did not seem as interested in talking about the stories of Jesus growing up. Her home is suppose to still be there. I have talked to people that have visited it.The Gospels of Thomas speak specifically about Jesus' childhood. They are not very favorable and probably at least one reasons why they are not included in the bible.
Luke spent a lot of time talking to Mary.
Her home is suppose to still be there. I have talked to people that have visited it.
Actually, John was with Mary after the crucifixion for the remainder of her life, he just didn't write about itLuke spent a lot of time talking to Mary. So we learn the most about his childhood from Luke. Although John spent time with Mary also. But he did not seem as interested in talking about the stories of Jesus growing up. Her home is suppose to still be there. I have talked to people that have visited it.
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