The stumbling block for atheists.

[Michael]

How do you define awareness? How do you tell if something is aware or not?

Hmmmm. I'd probably have to observe it, and "test" to see how it responds to various stimuli. I can't directly "observe" awareness.

 

[Michael]

First of all, evolution has no goal. It just tries to do the best it can in the here-and-now.

I'm asking you to give it some "goals" and *assume* that you're tying to intelligently design an agent that does have goals.

Secondly, I would use material in the most effective way to get the job done. For example, the Laryngeal nerve, I would have that going in a direct line, not the circuitous route it has at the moment. http://scienceblogs.com/grrlscientist/2010/06/22/the-laryngeal-nerve-of-the-gir/

Well, there might not always be a direct evolutionary path that A) leads to survival, and B) leads to a "most efficient" design.

Totally irrelevant to what I said.

I JUST DON'T WANT TO HEAR YOU TALK TO ME ABOUT COSMOLOGY, IS THAT CLEAR?

Sure, as long as you understand that you're asking me to essentially stop talking about God on a "Christian" website.

Just do me a favor then and stop asking me for evidence of God, because I see such evidence in everything that I see.

 

[Michael]

Just to be clear.....can I discuss particle physics with you, and hypothetical extensions to the standard particle physics model?

 

[dad]

We're already roaming around the solar system and landing things on various comets, moons and planets in this solar system. Admittedly humans may never leave the Milky Way galaxy, but anything is 'possible' given enough time, and enough ingenuity.

Man actually has limits. Time for example the time man has before Jesus returns. To claim we may go light years away is to claim there are vast years left. Total conjecture, and not really very biblical. In fact God does mention that if man sets a nest out in space, He will bring it DOWN! That does not seem to indicate God recommending conquest of space. What He says about the stars is that they will go OUT. Be no more. Roll up. This doesn't seem to jive with your views.

It's not like we've even had computers for 50 years yet dad. Give it time. Humans society didn't change all that much for thousands of years, but the 20th century in particular change life forever on this planet.

Changes like nukes. God has to step in to save mankind and the planet! The tree huggers will blow up the planet if God does not save it!

Once we as a race start learning to work together instead of in competition with each other, the universe is the limit.

So another tower of Babel to the heavens then? You do have quite the little philosophy. Then you tell us man evolved from animals rather than having been a direct creation of a real God? Interesting.

I don't have a lot of confidence in terms of cosmological claims by cosmologists, but what NASA, and ESA have accomplished in terms of solar system exploration has been nothing short of spectacular IMO. Those images of Pluto were *awesome*!

Since we don't know that much, it doesn't matter if you agree with them, they are wrong anyhow, and so are you probably.

I'm not sure anyone has a crystal ball when looking millions of years into the past,

I do. No such thing that is fantasy. Like the claim Adam was not really created.

but I'm sure that the universe and all the planets in our solar system, including Earth are far older than you believe them to be.

No. You aren't in any way actually.

 

[Michael]

Man actually has limits. Time for example the time man has before Jesus returns. To claim we may go light years away is to claim there are vast years left. Total conjecture,

You're right to this point of your sentence. I have no idea when Christ might come again. It's already been *thousands* of years dad. What's another couple thousand years, or a couple million years? How would I know when it might happen? In fact the Bible explicitly states that no man knows that answer.

and not really very biblical.

Not really. If a couple thousand years can be biblical, what's a few thousand more?

In fact God does mention that if man sets a nest out in space, He will bring it DOWN!

Technically comets and meteorites slam into Earth all the time. Did you happen to catch the one that blew up over Russia a few years ago?

That does not seem to indicate God recommending conquest of space.

It does say "be fruitful and multiply" doesn't it? There's more than one solar system in the universe isn't there? There's more than one planet in the solar system isn't there? Why put all that stuff up in space if we're not supposed to check it out?

What He says about the stars is that they will go OUT. Be no more. Roll up. This doesn't seem to jive with your views.

Actually I assume that all stars eventually burn out, and new ones are created all the time, so it does actually jive with my views.

Changes like nukes. God has to step in to save mankind and the planet! The tree huggers will blow up the planet if God does not save it!

Huh? The tree huggers are trying to save nature from human destruction. Your logic escapes me at times.

It's the military industrial complex that we need to worry about.

So another tower of Babel to the heavens then? You do have quite the little philosophy. Then you tell us man evolved from animals rather than having been a direct creation of a real God? Interesting.

Your conversations with Catholics must become amusing after awhile. If it's any consolation to you dad, I do think that DNA was "intelligently designed" to start with.

Since we don't know that much, it doesn't matter if you agree with them, they are wrong anyhow, and so are you probably.

Wrong about what exactly? I can see those images of Pluto for myself. They're completely awesome. So are the Hubble images and the SDO images. Empirical physics is your friend dad.

I do. No such thing that is fantasy. Like the claim Adam was not really created.

I believe that God created and breathes life into everything dad, not *just* humans.

No. You aren't in any way actually.

Ya I am.

 

[dad]

God's people?? ISIS are God's people. Just not "our" God.

Which god? I wasn't aware that they believed in the One true God whose son is Jesus?

 

[dad]

You're right to this point of your sentence. I have no idea when Christ might come again. It's already been *thousands* of years dad. What's another couple thousand years, or a couple million years? How would I know when it might happen? In fact the Bible explicitly states that no man knows that answer.

Looking at the history of the world and characters in the bible, we see that by the time Christ got here we entered a phase of man's history called the end time. Looking at the length of that time till jesus, there is no way it could have been millions of years. So it is not reasonable to ignore all the signs of the times already here, as well as to claim that the end portion of that history would be millions of years.

Not really. If a couple thousand years can be biblical, what's a few thousand more?

Well, who knows? But you said millions. Looking at the signs of the times we see man is in great danger now with all sorts of WOMD and evil etc. It seems less than reasonable to assume that could go on a few thousand years.

Technically comets and meteorites slam into Earth all the time. Did you happen to catch the one that blew up over Russia a few years ago?

Irrelevant. They are not stars. Nor are they the universe folding up! We also see lots of stars still shining they are all going OUT.

It does say "be fruitful and multiply" doesn't it? There's more than one solar system in the universe isn't there? There's more than one planet in the solar system isn't there? Why put all that stuff up in space if we're not supposed to check it out?

Look at the rest of the verse and command in chapter one..


28 God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it. Rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, and every creature that crawls on the earth."

Actually I assume that all stars eventually burn out, and new ones are created all the time, so it does actually jive with my views.

No way. This is sudden.

Huh? The tree huggers are trying to save nature from human destruction. Your logic escapes me at times.

It's the military industrial complex that we need to worry about

Pentagon Goes Green

Pentagon's green-energy initiatives face GOP skeptics

Green Hawks in the Pentagon: the American Army Is on a Green Mission

Same thing. Same spirit.

Your conversations with Catholics must become amusing after awhile. If it's any consolation to you dad, I do think that DNA was "intelligently designed" to start with.

Meaningless if Adam came from an animal womb rather than being created. That is the red line in the sand.

Wrong about what exactly? I can see those images of Pluto for myself. They're completely awesome. So are the Hubble images and the SDO images. Empirical physics is your friend dad.

Wrong about what the universe is all about, what stars are, what time is, the whole standard cosmological model.

I believe that God created and breathes life into everything dad, not *just* humans.

I prefer the bible thanks.

Ya I am.

Make claims all you like, you won't back them up cause it can't be done.

 

[MissRowy]

Which god? I wasn't aware that they believed in the One true God whose son is Jesus?

Thats the thing. In your original post you weren't that clear so I mentioned that. And no they don't believe in our Lord Almighty and they also believe that Jesus is a Prophet and not the Son of God.

 

[Kylie]

Hmmmm. I'd probably have to observe it, and "test" to see how it responds to various stimuli. I can't directly "observe" awareness.

There have been cases of people who were in comas, or other conditions where they could not respond. They would not be able to respond to any of your tests. And yet, they came out of their conditions and were able to communicate, and they said that they were aware the whole time.

Response does not seem to be a good way to test for awareness.

Locked In Man

 

[Kylie]

I'm asking you to give it some "goals" and *assume* that you're tying to intelligently design an agent that does have goals.

Wow, you really don't understand evolution, do you?

Well, there might not always be a direct evolutionary path that A) leads to survival, and B) leads to a "most efficient" design.

And that's what we see in actual life forms. Things that a real designer would never design because they use resources inefficiently. But of course, evolution explains them perfectly.

Sure, as long as you understand that you're asking me to essentially stop talking about God on a "Christian" website.

Just do me a favor then and stop asking me for evidence of God, because I see such evidence in everything that I see.

I don't see anyone else here having a problem with it.

 

[Michael]

There have been cases of people who were in comas, or other conditions where they could not respond. They would not be able to respond to any of your tests. And yet, they came out of their conditions and were able to communicate, and they said that they were aware the whole time.

You're right. Then again, they only way we found that out is to observe what happened over a very long time. That's another example where we might not have any 'control" over the experiment by the way.

Response does not seem to be a good way to test for awareness.

How else would we have known that they were "aware" unless we observed them long term?

I'm not saying it's an ideal system, or that we can afford to be impatient observers either.

 

[Michael]

Wow, you really don't understand evolution, do you?

Gah! First you didn't like it when I tried to offer you some suggestions of things that might indicate an "intelligently designed" agent with the "intent" (intelligent intent) for the agent to "be fruitful and multiply" and adapt to life bearing planets and create variation over time. You claimed I was stacking the deck.

I then took a step back, and I asked you to instead *deviate* from EV theory and "intelligently design" some features into an agent yourself so I'm not "stacking the deck', and you immediately accuse me of not understanding EV theory! Gah!

I'm struggling to find a way forward at this point. Got any suggestions?

And that's what we see in actual life forms. Things that a real designer would never design because they use resources inefficiently. But of course, evolution explains them perfectly.

I think we're talking past each other. You're assuming that I'm somehow expecting God to have personally intelligently designed each and every organism on the planet with the express intent of using the least number of genes and being the most "efficient" design. That's not what I was asking you for because neither of us doubts evolutionary theory in terms of adaptation over time. I'm talking about programming in the *ability to adapt* from the start, and letting it "adapt" to many environments over a long period of time.

I don't see anyone else here having a problem with it.

I don't see anyone else offering you empirical physical evidence of God.

 

[Michael]

Looking at the history of the world and characters in the bible, we see that by the time Christ got here we entered a phase of man's history called the end time. Looking at the length of that time till jesus, there is no way it could have been millions of years. So it is not reasonable to ignore all the signs of the times already here, as well as to claim that the end portion of that history would be millions of years.

Every single human generation since the time Christ walked the Earth probably believed they were living in the "end times", including the apostles themselves. Why would you be any different? Maybe because history has shown a pattern of humans being *wrong* on that belief?

Well, who knows? But you said millions. Looking at the signs of the times we see man is in great danger now with all sorts of WOMD and evil etc. It seems less than reasonable to assume that could go on a few thousand years.

Call me an optimist, but I think we could actually work out our basic difference and learn to live in peace on Earth. If so, I think the universe is the limit.

Irrelevant. They are not stars. Nor are they the universe folding up! We also see lots of stars still shining they are all going OUT.

New stars are being created all the time dad, and new ones will continue to light up.

Look at the rest of the verse and command in chapter one..


28 God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it. Rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, and every creature that crawls on the earth."

Once we fill up the Earth, then what?

Same thing. Same spirit.

I'm far more worried about foolish politicians than I'm worried about career military personnel, but the stronger the military complex, the more potential it has for massive destruction. How many times over do we have to be able to nuke the whole planet?

What happens if *every* nation insists on having that same destructive potential?

Meaningless if Adam came from an animal womb rather than being created. That is the red line in the sand.

I'm suggesting God may even have a hand in evolution dad. Panentheism has the added benefit of being entirely interactive.

Wrong about what the universe is all about, what stars are, what time is, the whole standard cosmological model.

There is ample evidence here on Earth to demonstrate that this planet is billions of years old. I can also look at starlight from objects that are millions and even billions of light year away.

I prefer the bible thanks.

The Bible is interpreted by fallible humans, so I tend to crosscheck my interpretation with reality from time to time.

Make claims all you like, you won't back them up cause it can't be done.

With you, no, but only because you reject empirical physics entirely, while typing away on your keyboard and posting things to the internet.

 

[Strathos]

Every single human generation since the time Christ walked the Earth probably believed they were living in the "end times", including the apostles themselves. Why would you be any different? Maybe because history has shown a pattern of humans being *wrong* on that belief?

I have to laugh whenever someone says the end time is coming right away, as if they think they can know that. Only God knows when it will happen.

 

[Michael]

I have to laugh whenever someone says the end time is coming right away, as if they think they can know that. Only God knows when it will happen.

Exactly.

 

[dad]

Thats the thing. In your original post you weren't that clear so I mentioned that. And no they don't believe in our Lord Almighty and they also believe that Jesus is a Prophet and not the Son of God.

So they are out to lunch..OK. That all?

 

[dad]

Every single human generation since the time Christ walked the Earth probably believed they were living in the "end times", including the apostles themselves. Why would you be any different? Maybe because history has shown a pattern of humans being *wrong* on that belief?

They were of course it started then.

Call me an optimist, but I think we could actually work out our basic difference and learn to live in peace on Earth. If so, I think the universe is the limit.

No need for God to save us and take over then.

New stars are being created all the time dad, and new ones will continue to light up.

Nope. They will all go out. You don't even know what 'stars' really are.

Once we fill up the Earth, then what?

God will be living here not your worry.

I'm far more worried about foolish politicians than I'm worried about career military personnel, but the stronger the military complex, the more potential it has for massive destruction. How many times over do we have to be able to nuke the whole planet?

The problem is sin. All men are sinners. No way out but Jesus. No brotherhood of man baloney will save us.

I'm suggesting God may even have a hand in evolution dad. Panentheism has the added benefit of being entirely interactive.

Of course He gave us the ability to adapt and evolve. That doesn't mean life was not created first.

There is ample evidence here on Earth to demonstrate that this planet is billions of years old.

None at all, just beliefs.

I can also look at starlight from objects that are millions and even billions of light year away.

No you can't.

The Bible is interpreted by fallible humans, so I tend to crosscheck my interpretation with reality from time to time.

Jesus didn't know that when He validated it as from God and true?

With you, no, but only because you reject empirical physics entirely, while typing away on your keyboard and posting things to the internet.

False comparison, physics are great here and now.

 

[Kylie]

You're right. Then again, they only way we found that out is to observe what happened over a very long time. That's another example where we might not have any 'control" over the experiment by the way.



How else would we have known that they were "aware" unless we observed them long term?

I'm not saying it's an ideal system, or that we can afford to be impatient observers either.

You are missing the point.

My point is that awareness does not always mean there will be a response.

 

[Kylie]

Gah! First you didn't like it when I tried to offer you some suggestions of things that might indicate an "intelligently designed" agent with the "intent" (intelligent intent) for the agent to "be fruitful and multiply" and adapt to life bearing planets and create variation over time. You claimed I was stacking the deck.

Because you intentionally chose things that would fit to life forms, without explaining why those things would actually indicate intelligent design.

I then took a step back, and I asked you to instead *deviate* from EV theory and "intelligently design" some features into an agent yourself so I'm not "stacking the deck', and you immediately accuse me of not understanding EV theory! Gah!

Because you don't seem to understand that evolution has no long term goals. Evolution does not work by going, "Oh, if I evolve such and such a feature, it will be handy in 20,000 generations."

I'm struggling to find a way forward at this point. Got any suggestions?

Yeah, answer my question.

If I come across a particular thing, what can I look for that will tell me that it was designed by some intelligent entity?

I think we're talking past each other. You're assuming that I'm somehow expecting God to have personally intelligently designed each and every organism on the planet with the express intent of using the least number of genes and being the most "efficient" design. That's not what I was asking you for because neither of us doubts evolutionary theory in terms of adaptation over time. I'm talking about programming in the *ability to adapt* from the start, and letting it "adapt" to many environments over a long period of time.

Why do you even think that can only come about through the action of some intelligent entity? All you need is for the thing to be able to make copies of itself, and also for that copying process to be imperfect.

I don't see anyone else offering you empirical physical evidence of God.

I'm not asking for evidence of God, I'm asking for a way to determine if something has been designed or not.

 

[MissRowy]

So they are out to lunch..OK. That all?

Does it look that way?? By the way did you actually do physics at school?