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The stumbling block for atheists.

TagliatelliMonster

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Prove it.

One lives in the realm of scientific inquiry
The other lives in the realm of superstition

Show me one observation that cannot be explained with ordinary matter

The measurable gravitational forces that can't be accounted for by "regular" matter.
Something unknown is exerting that gravity. That unknown is being refered to as dark matter.

They have *exactly* the same track record in the lab.

No. There is nothing mysterious going on when being born at a particular time relative to the position of stars and planets.


"So what?"...? I'ld expect it to be rather obvious then.

The term "scientific" doesn't determine *accuracy*, particularly when talking about *hypothetical* constructs like gravitons, SUSY particles, multiverses, extra dimensions, etc.

lol

You're blatantly ignoring that your "experts" are just "experts" on the finer points of their own belief system. They aren't necessarily "experts" on what is real or true.

Yeah... How dumb am I, right?
To think that a physicists actually knows a thing or two about physics.
 
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Radrook

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The factor that severely cripples the atheist thinking ability is the total unacceptance of anything that might lead to a conclusion of a creator because they erroneously believe that the acknowledgement of any evidence of an intelligent designer is an acknowledgement of a god or God. The effort to avoid compelling evidence that justifiably leads to such a conclusion forces them to adopt illogical thinking via inconsistency of policy and other fallacies.
 
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bhsmte

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The factor that severely cripples the atheist thinking ability is the total unacceptance of anything that might lead to a conclusion of a creator because they erroneously believe that the acknowledgement of any evidence of an intelligent designer is an acknowledgement of a god or God. The effort to avoid compelling evidence that justifiably leads to such a conclusion forces them to adopt illogical thinking via inconsistency of policy and other fallacies.
You have any evidence?
 
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Loudmouth

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The factor that severely cripples the atheist thinking ability is the total unacceptance of anything that might lead to a conclusion of a creator because they erroneously believe that the acknowledgement of any evidence of an intelligent designer is an acknowledgement of a god or God. The effort to avoid compelling evidence that justifiably leads to such a conclusion forces them to adopt illogical thinking via inconsistency of policy and other fallacies.

The problem with your claims is that you haven't presented any evidence.
 
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Speedwell

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The factor that severely cripples the atheist thinking ability is the total unacceptance of anything that might lead to a conclusion of a creator because they erroneously believe that the acknowledgement of any evidence of an intelligent designer is an acknowledgement of a god or God. The effort to avoid compelling evidence that justifiably leads to such a conclusion forces them to adopt illogical thinking via inconsistency of policy and other fallacies.
No, they're not that stupid. They can recognize bad arguments and dubious motives just as easily as the Christians who reject ID.
 
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Jimmy D

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The factor that severely cripples the atheist thinking ability is the total unacceptance of anything that might lead to a conclusion of a creator because they erroneously believe that the acknowledgement of any evidence of an intelligent designer is an acknowledgement of a god or God.

Not really. I personally would be excited by such a discovery as I'm sure many others would. Your mind reading skills require a bit more practise.

The fact is your arguments are lacking in substance.
 
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Radrook

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Not really. I personally would be excited by such a discovery as I'm sure many others would. Your mind reading skills require a bit more practise.

The fact is your arguments are lacking in substance.
Well, I consider your arguments to be totally devoid of substance as well. So I guess it's mutual.

BTW
That self-flattering description of your viewpoint goes entirely contrary to what your modus operandi clearly indicates.
 
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Loudmouth

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Well, I consider your arguments to be totally devoid of substance as well. So I guess it's mutual.

BTW
That self-flattering description of your viewpoint goes entirely contrary to what your modus operandi clearly indicates.

Insulting people is not evidence.
 
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Jimmy D

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Well, I consider your arguments to be totally devoid of substance as well. So I guess it's mutual.

Is that why you never answer my questions?

That self-flattering description of your viewpoint goes entirely contrary to what your modus operandi clearly indicates.

That's a bit harsh, we may not disagree but I'm certainly not going to lie to you about my opinions.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Bingo! Give the man a cookie! :)

Same deal with "dark matter". They may be an authority on the *concept*, but the concept isn't necessarily "real" or "true". See the problem yet?
Er, no - they're not claiming any hypothesis as true; and what they're claiming as 'real' or 'true' is that they have made observations that don't fit the current theories.

That might fly if they actually allowed any actual "test" to falsify the claim. Since they simply ignore every failed test, and every test has been a failure, it's not like they even care about the outcome of their "tests" anymore than an astrologer cares is they fail some "test".
I recommend you learn a little about the philosophy of science. As previously explained, the only failed experiment in science is one that fails to obtain valid results.

There's a good (Popperian) argument to be made that the most successful result, in terms of utility, is a falsification (I'm guessing that's what you mean by a 'failed test') because it eliminates the hypothesis being tested. You can't definitively falsify a range of particle hypotheses for the 'dark matter' effect without falsifying every hypothesis in that range; and you can't falsify an individual particle hypothesis by looking once and not seeing it, because of the problem of induction (the 'Black Swan' problem); ideally you want to try a number of independent approaches to reach an acceptable level of certainty.

You may feel it's all a waste of time because you already know the right answer, and there are probably many other blokes on the internet who feel the same way about their preferred answer to the 'dark matter' effect, but no-one can make that claim until their hypothesis has been thoroughly tested, outperforms all others, and becomes a scientific theory in its own right. If you can do that, go for it ;)

But if the hypothesis you favour has been published in a reputable journal, you'll have the consolation that in the unlikely event that they falsify all the higher ranking hypotheses and finally vindicate yours, you'll be able to point to your publication and say "I told you so!" Try not be disappointed if they find a model that works before that, or if it's a different bloke on the internet who turns out to have the best model, or if they say, "Meh, whatever..." :rolleyes:
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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The factor that severely cripples the atheist thinking ability is the total unacceptance of anything that might lead to a conclusion of a creator because they erroneously believe that the acknowledgement of any evidence of an intelligent designer is an acknowledgement of a god or God.
That's demonstrably false in a multitude of ways.

First, there are, off course, plenty of theists who have no problem with the natural sciences, yet do not accept your ID claims.

Secondly, their is nothing wrong with the evidence that supports cars are manufactured products, made by "intelligent designers" called humans.

There's also nothing wrong with with the evidence that spider webs are created by an "unintelligent designer" called spiders.

There's nothing wrong still, with the evidence that snowflakes are produced by natural processes.

You don't have anything that even remotely comes close, to this standard of evidence.
If you had, you would have given it by now.
 
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Radrook

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Is that why you never answer my questions?



That's a bit harsh, we may not disagree but I'm certainly not going to lie to you about my opinions.

It isn't a purposeful attempt to deceive. I am sure that you honestly believe yourself in the manner described.
About questions, all I ever get as responses are "Ï don't understand!" "I fail to SEE the relevance" "Still don't SEE anything at all!" "That has been proven false before!"" "Answer the question!" "Answer the question!" "Answer the question!" "Answer the question!" "Answer the question!"
 
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Loudmouth

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It isn't a purposeful attempt to deceive. I am sure that you honestly believe yourself in the manner described.
About questions, all I eve get as responses is "Ï don't understand!" "I fail to SEE the relevance"
"Still don't SEE anything at all!" "That has been proven false before!"" "Answer the question!" "Answer the question!" "Answer the question!" "Answer the question!" "Answer the question!"

Yet another post devoid of evidence.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Not when they *blatantly* ignore every NULL result, and every test is a *failure*. The dogma was never rejected, even though every one of their "tests" was negative. Confirmation bias at it's worst.
I think that's a misrepresentation of what they're doing, but par for the course. See my last post; alternatively, find an introduction to the philosophy of science.
 
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HitchSlap

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The factor that severely cripples the atheist thinking ability is the total unacceptance of anything that might lead to a conclusion of a creator because they erroneously believe that the acknowledgement of any evidence of an intelligent designer is an acknowledgement of a god or God. The effort to avoid compelling evidence that justifiably leads to such a conclusion forces them to adopt illogical thinking via inconsistency of policy and other fallacies.
The "factor that severely cripples" an atheist's acceptance of ID...


Is lack of evidence for a designer/god/matrix/alien or purple Tuesday farting pixies.
 
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Michael

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Er, no - they're not claiming any hypothesis as true; and what they're claiming as 'real' or 'true' is that they have made observations that don't fit the current theories.

Those very same observations fit EU/PC theory just fine! I'm not pretending that I have the capability of accurately measuring the the baryonic mass of distant galaxies in the first place, so any "missing mass" due to lensing data I would assume is made of *ordinary matter*.

Your side is the one that is making *claims* they can't substantiate with any evidence. They are claiming they A) had the ability to *correctly* estimate the amount of ordinary baryonic matter present in distant galaxies in 2006 (or even now), therefore B) they claim that some type of 'exotic' form of matter makes up the difference.

Both claim A) and claim B) were *falsified* repeatedly over the past decade. What difference did it make to them?

Thunderbolts Forum • View topic - Lambda-CDM - EU/PC Theory - Confirmation Bias

If they aren't claiming it's "true", and it's failed every single "test", why don't they let it be falsified and move on? It's a form of pure faith at this point in time, *bad* faith too. It goes directly *against the evidence* we've gathered over the past decade.

I recommend you learn a little about the philosophy of science. As previously explained, the only failed experiment in science is one that fails to obtain valid results.

How then can we falsify exotic matter claims with both parts A and B have been falsified repeatedly?

I'm not complaining about the "philosophy" of science, I'm complaining about the results of their "tests" all being negative, yet I'm supposed to 'change their opinions" or accept their "beliefs" in the supernatural.

There's a good (Popperian) argument to be made that the most successful result, in terms of utility, is a falsification (I'm guessing that's what you mean by a 'failed test') because it eliminates the hypothesis being tested. You can't definitively falsify a range of particle hypotheses for the 'dark matter' effect without falsifying every hypothesis in that range; and you can't falsify an individual particle hypothesis by looking once and not seeing it, because of the problem of induction (the 'Black Swan' problem); ideally you want to try a number of independent approaches to reach an acceptable level of certainty.

Exactly. It's a supernatural particle of the gaps argument. Nothing can falsify every possible energy state range, but the burden of proof was never on me to do that in the first place. The burden in upon you to demonstrate that it *exists*. You can't.

You may feel it's all a waste of time because you already know the right answer, and there are probably many other blokes on the internet who feel the same way about their preferred answer to the 'dark matter' effect, but no-one can make that claim until their hypothesis has been thoroughly tested, outperforms all others, and becomes a scientific theory in its own right. If you can do that, go for it ;)

Alfven beat me to the important stuff by 50 years, and Birkeland beat me to the solar model by 100. :) They already provided working models in Birkeland's case, and Alfven provided all the necessarily math to build a cosmology theory. Nobody listened.

But if the hypothesis you favour has been published in a reputable journal, you'll have the consolation that in the unlikely event that they falsify all the higher ranking hypotheses and finally vindicate yours, you'll be able to point to your publication and say "I told you so!" Try not be disappointed if they find a model that works before that, or if it's a different bloke on the internet who turns out to have the best model, or if they say, "Meh, whatever..." :rolleyes:

There are already plenty of published papers on the topic of EU/PC theory, and even I helped get a few of them published. Time will tell. In the meantime however, I'm certainly not impressed with their "expertise' anymore than I'm impressed with the 'expertise" of snipe hunters or astrologers. :)

Honestly, the amount of evidence *against* exotic matter is simply overwhelming. The only reason the mainstream refuses to accept the results is because even the falsification of the exotic matter claim itself causes the whole nucleosynthesis claims of LCMD to bite the dust, and the whole theory bites the dust.

Therefore, it's lather, rinse, repeat for the mainstream, regardless of how many lab *failures* they have. It doesn't matter to them one iota.
 
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Michael

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FrumiousBandersnatch

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..Your side is the one that is making *claims* they can't substantiate with any evidence.
...
The burden in upon you to demonstrate that it *exists*. You can't.
Michael, please try to stop obsessing long enough to register that I don't have a 'side' in this issue; I've explained why it is reasonable to take the mainstream consensus of practitioners as the authority rather than some bloke on the internet, but at least they are working the problem by testing and eliminating hypotheses, instead of ranting on an unrelated forum. I've also explained why your description of what they're doing shows a basic misunderstanding of how science is done - as does your whole approach, it has to be said.

There is no burden on me to demonstrate anything about this - I'm an interested observer, not a physicist working on the problem.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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In what specific way have I misrepresented anything?
For example:

"they *blatantly* ignore every NULL result, and every test is a *failure*. The dogma was never rejected..."​

All results are carefully considered and discussed; to call tests that fail to find a hypothesized entity a failure is a misrepresentation (and misunderstanding) of the scientific method (as I already explained); hypotheses aren't dogma (by definition), and neither are scientific theories - this distinction is fundamental in science.

I see little point in continuing this derail. Thanks for the exercise.
 
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