The stumbling block for atheists.

[quatona]

Anyone can demand evidence where none is needed

If no evidence is required for intelligent design, ID can´t be science.

or tag everything that is provided as evidence as non-evidence.

I´d see some basis for this complaint had you actually presented some at least putative evidence (that had been tagged as non-evidence).

That is easy. That's why you folks do it.

As long as you don´t present what you feel is evidence us folks don´t even have a basis for doing it.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I was going to qualify it, because although it's attributed to him, no-one seems to know where or when he said it - but it's the kind of thing he'd say, and he's known to have expressed similar sentiments, so...

Ah. I didn't know that. Thanks.

ETA: Did some quick research. It seems we should stick with "Anonymous".

 

[Radrook]

What reasoning would that be?

Claiming inability to reason isn't a rebuttal.

 

[Radrook]

IMHO, the stumbling block for atheists is the concept of natural Causality. It is also called the thorn in their flesh.

That seems to cause an inability to properly evaluate what natural causality is plainly indication to the point of absurdity.

 

[bhsmte]

I need not feel obligated to constantly repeat the same things over and over on demand simply because you choose to claim total incomprehension.

You do seem to be obligated to ignore straight forward questions, even when they are asked of you several times.

For the third time, can you please answer my question in post 381?

 

[bhsmte]

I need not feel obligated to constantly repeat the same things over and over on demand simply because you choose to claim total incomprehension.

double post.

 

[Radrook]

You do seem to be obligated to ignore straight forward questions, even when they are asked of you several times.

For the third time, can you please answer my question in post 381?

Ask legitimate questions which don't involve feigning inability to reason and they will be answered.

 

[Radrook]

double post.

Triple

 

[bhsmte]

Ask legitimate questions which don't involve feigning inability to reason and they will be answered.

LOL. What is not legitimate about my question about your very own statement?

 

[Radrook]

Apparently, I need to repeat the same questions because you refuse to answer them.

Are you saying that life came about through completely natural processes? If not, what is your claim as to how life came about?

Google ID.

 

[Radrook]

You´ve got that backwards. I know that computers are designed by humans, I know how it´s done, I know why it´s done, I know who does it - and all this can be shown. I don´t have to conclude it, even less based on unclear criteria for "design".
So as soon as you can show me how and by whom universes are designed (in the way I can show you how and by whom computers are designed) , these epistemological processes will at least be comparable.
Until then...apples and aeroplanes.

We KNOW that coded information involves a coding mind. So I guess we have the same basis for belief-knowing. The difference is that your KNOWING is a totally illogical basis for rejection of intelligent design since it involves inconsistency and selective blindness while my knowing is a perfectly logical basis for my inference of intelligent design because it does not. That's a very crucial difference!


BTW
Asking for the identity of a designer in order to accept that something was designed? Hopefully you are making a joke. Otherwise it raises suspicions of not playing with full deck.

 

[bhsmte]

Google ID.

Is there a reason you can't answer in your own words?

 

[bhsmte]

We KNOW that coded information involves a coding mind. So I guess we have the same basis for belief-knowing. The difference is that your KNOWING is a totally illogical basis for rejection of intelligent design since it involves inconsistency and selective blindness while my knowing is a perfectly logical basis for my inference of intelligent design because it does not. That's a very crucial difference!

Straighten us out then. What is your scientific definition of ID? What is the falsifiable test to determine if ID is present?

 

[MissRowy]

And Radrook or anyone who comments and leaves us in the dark, it would be nice if refutable sources were used to back up your statement. Its a good habit to get into

 

[Radrook]

And Radrook or anyone who comments and leaves us in the dark, it would be nice if refutable sources were used to back up your statement. Its a good habit to get into

The problem isn't responding-it is responding only to be told by the same individuals that they don't understand. So since I am being asked to tell these individuals over and over the same thing only to have them say they don't understand, I will simply not participate in this thread. That should solve the problem.

BTW
These persons have been told on other threads what my position in reference to ID is and STILL insist that I repeat myself. I am not a machine. It comes across as an effort to annoy.

 

[MissRowy]

Point taken. I know you aren't a machine and I apologise if I offended you by mentioning your name.

 

[Radrook]

Point taken. I know you aren't a machine and I apologise if I offended you by mentioning your name.

Thanks for the understanding response. God bless!

 

[4x4toy]

I think you completely miss the point of why atheists are atheists, I can't speak for others only for me. From my point of view there are several stumbling blocks to becoming an religious adherent. Firstly starting with God himself, I can never get past the question of "where did God come from, who or what made God". Then secondly, the possibility that a supernatural being exists, alongside a load more supernatural beings called angels, cherubim, seraphim or whatever who exist for ever in a spirit world where they exist without the need for physical sustenance and without interacting with the physical world seems to me to be beyond incredible, where is this place and how does it exist? Thirdly the idea that the chief or head of all these spirit beings is all powerful and can magic things into existence just by his own will is just too incredible for belief. Fourthly, even if I've got that wrong, and God does exist, the idea that he takes personal interest in humankind strikes me as ludicrous. Next, even if I've got all that wrong the idea that God only looks after one particular section of humanity who happen to have understood all of Gods word correctly and are therefore saved but all other sections of humanity who for whatever reason follow (worship?) another form of God are eternally damned strikes me a ridiculous. Finally, the idea that this all seeing, all powerful god wants humanity to bend it knee and worship this god is in my opinion ridiculous. The Bible was written at a time when the population was expected to prostrate themselves in front of their King, and that's why the Bible follows the same rules for a god who, in my opinion, was invented at that time. Is this all powerful all seeing "creator god" so insecure that he requires puny human beings to bend their knee and worship him? The whole idea of worship is from an antiquated society, I cna understand why it's in the bible and other religious books but it has no relevance to the current world.

I am dating a committed Christian and understand why some people are religious adherents, I understand it but I just don't get it. She hopes one day I'll change my mind, but I've told her that there are way too many obstacles and I'm happy with my choice. To be fair she worries that i'll be forever condemned, which of course if I'm wrong I will be, but that's life (or death actually!).

I'm not trying to start an argument or provoke any believers, I was just answering the post.

Hi Dave . I was an Atheist and pondered pretty much the same questions as you . We are born to die . Along the way we live , so we exist . Can it be reasonable to assume God exists too ? That was one of the last questions I asked myself as an Atheist . So I heard testimony of people I knew before they got saved and changed . So I began to wonder if maybe there was something about all the millions of people who became Christians . Was I that much more intelligent than those folks to know better than God ? I was humbled at the thought of my arrogance .. Now if you were rich and a woman put on the show and married you for your money but didn't love you or cared, you're headed for trouble . But God seeks people who love him , so if we went by any thing but faith then thieves would sneak in . We are given a choice on purpose , free will to love God and his ways as demonstrated by Jesus or not on an even playing field .. If people knew there was hell waiting on them they would line up for God but the way God set it up is you must love the idea or reject .. If you accept the gift then you grow testimony of the truth .. As far as worshiping God goes , we are creatures who are made to worship and Jesus is worthy, kinda like a job and duty , far from vanity .. Jesus spoke of a woman who washed his feet with her tears and dried them with her hair , God knows I love that kindness showed to my Savior .. The man was obedient to death for us to save us ..

 

[Dave RP]

Hi Dave . I was an Atheist and pondered pretty much the same questions as you . We are born to die . Along the way we live , so we exist . Can it be reasonable to assume God exists too ? That was one of the last questions I asked myself as an Atheist . So I heard testimony of people I knew before they got saved and changed . So I began to wonder if maybe there was something about all the millions of people who became Christians . Was I that much more intelligent than those folks to know better than God ? I was humbled at the thought .. Now if you were rich and a woman put on the show and married you for your money but didn't love you or cared, you're headed for trouble .[/QUOT

I agree with you that there are millions of people who are not in any way less intelligent than me, who are not stupid or fools or easily led who genuinely believe in the Christian story, but to be fair there are also millions of Muslims, Hindus and hundreds of other belief systems who also are not stupid but believe they alone have got it right. As for your point about US existing and therefore god may exist, I'm sorry but I don't see the connection. We exist because our mother and father had sex and an egg got fertilised. I know I exist because I can see, feel and touch myself and see my interaction with the world. I still get stuck on who or what made God, and where is he, how does he live without food and sustenance, why can't we see hear feel or touch him? As for my personal life, I am not married to my partner, we are just (an expression which seems bizarre when you're in middle age) "boyfriend and girlfriend", marriage is not on the cards at this stage of our lives.

 

[Larniavc]

I think you completely miss the point of why atheists are atheists, I can't speak for others only for me. From my point of view there are several stumbling blocks to becoming an religious adherent. Firstly starting with God himself, I can never get past the question of "where did God come from, who or what made God". Then secondly, the possibility that a supernatural being exists, alongside a load more supernatural beings called angels, cherubim, seraphim or whatever who exist for ever in a spirit world where they exist without the need for physical sustenance and without interacting with the physical world seems to me to be beyond incredible, where is this place and how does it exist? Thirdly the idea that the chief or head of all these spirit beings is all powerful and can magic things into existence just by his own will is just too incredible for belief. Fourthly, even if I've got that wrong, and God does exist, the idea that he takes personal interest in humankind strikes me as ludicrous. Next, even if I've got all that wrong the idea that God only looks after one particular section of humanity who happen to have understood all of Gods word correctly and are therefore saved but all other sections of humanity who for whatever reason follow (worship?) another form of God are eternally damned strikes me a ridiculous. Finally, the idea that this all seeing, all powerful god wants humanity to bend it knee and worship this god is in my opinion ridiculous. The Bible was written at a time when the population was expected to prostrate themselves in front of their King, and that's why the Bible follows the same rules for a god who, in my opinion, was invented at that time. Is this all powerful all seeing "creator god" so insecure that he requires puny human beings to bend their knee and worship him? The whole idea of worship is from an antiquated society, I cna understand why it's in the bible and other religious books but it has no relevance to the current world.

I am dating a committed Christian and understand why some people are religious adherents, I understand it but I just don't get it. She hopes one day I'll change my mind, but I've told her that there are way too many obstacles and I'm happy with my choice. To be fair she worries that i'll be forever condemned, which of course if I'm wrong I will be, but that's life (or death actually!).

I'm not trying to start an argument or provoke any believers, I was just answering the post.

Excellent post.

You never know, in time your gf may see the light, so to speak.