The stumbling block for atheists.

[dad]

It says in words of one syllable that the giving precedes the coming. You might wish you could reverse that, but it says what it says.

All men are given! Given the opportunity to chose life over death. All men get help from God to do that. So anyone that does it does it with help from God.

 

[dad]

You can believe me or not, but there is more than enough evidence that the NT authors took it for granted.

Jesus died to redeem those predestined to salvation by God, and who, being drawn by the Father, come to Jesus.

Nope. Having Him know before that we were His and would come to Him does not mean that He set it up so only we could have come.

 

[dad]

If He 'knows the future', then He also knows what choice we will make - which means we cannot choose otherwise, which means we have no choice.

His knowing what we will do does not mean we do not get the real real real chance to chose.

Our 'real' choice?

Yes. Real.

He wouldn't need to predetermine our choice if He already knows what it will be, because if it's already known, it's not a 'real' choice; we just have the feeling we've made a choice - it's the illusion of free will.

He did not predestine our choice at all. He died to give it to us! If He stepped in and intervened, then it would not have been a real choice. You can chose.

When people say they made a free choice because in certain circumstances they could have chosen differently, they often omit "... if I'd wanted to", an implicit acknowledgement that their action was dependent on their state of mind at the time; i.e. if their state of mind had been different they would have 'chosen' (acted) differently. In other words, if things had been different, things would have been different. Well, that's a deterministic tautology, not free will and not a coherent argument.

We may not have total freedom in all choices, but we do have the actual freedom to chose Jesus and eternal life or reject it. You may be in a prison for life and 'chose' to vacation, well you did not really have that choice to take the trip. God helps us all, and has angels helping us. He has cleared the way for us to have the choice. No one can ever say they were destined for and created to go to hell!

Now some have made that choice early and clearly, and have descended far into wickedness. For some of those folks we might say they were made to be destroyed. Why? Because in a sense, it is known that multitudes will fight God in the valley of decision. It is known they will be destroyed. Yet they all made their choice so we might say they were made to be destroyed.

 

[dad]

How can you not see that the concept of "choice" is entirely incompatible with the concept of "predestined"?

Sometimes they translated the word predestined to mean foreknown, basically. In the modern sense it seems to mean pre determined. What was predetermined by God before the world began was that Jesus would die for sinners to give them the choice to choose life.

 

[AV1611VET]

They will not do that unless God has chosen them for salvation, and drawn them to himself, and, if he has prestined them to salvation, God's will cannot be frustrated, so they will certainly come to him.

I don't know what Calvin taught, but God is not Vishnu, the supreme ruler of Karma.

People are not predestinated to go to Hell because of something they did in a past life.

 

[morse86]

They will not do that unless God has chosen them for salvation, and drawn them to himself, and, if he has prestined them to salvation, God's will cannot be frustrated, so they will certainly come to him.

What are you talking about? Of course Jesus will draw all men towards him through the light of this world. That is what the great commission is about. The soul winners are supposed to win over the souls.

Matthew 28:16-20:
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore[a] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

It has nothing to do with predestination. Through the disobedience of one (Adam), death passed over all. Through the obedience of ONE (Jesus) was life brought.

Do you not understand? Did you read "bible commentary"/articles instead of the world of God itself??

 

[lesliedellow]

How can you not see that the concept of "choice" is entirely incompatible with the concept of "predestined"?

It is not exactly a popular doctrine amongst Christians, even though it appears in words of one syllable in the Bible.

 

[lesliedellow]

All men are given!

That would make Jesus's repeated remarks about those who have been given to him somewhat redundant, wouldn't it?

"John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

Why that qualification, if all men are given to Jesus?


"John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."

If all men are given to Jesus, why does he say that he doesn't pray for all men ("the world"). but only for those the Father has given to him?

 

[lesliedellow]

I don't know what Calvin taught, but God is not Vishnu, the supreme ruler of Karma.

People are not predestinated to go to Hell because of something they did in a past life.

That bears absolutely no relevance to the Bible's teaching on predestination.

 

[lesliedellow]

What are you talking about? Of course Jesus will draw all men towards him through the light of this world. That is what the great commission is about. The soul winners are supposed to win over the souls.

"Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

The commision is to preach the Gospel. Whether or not its hearers are given ears to hear is up to God.

Do you not understand? Did you read "bible commentary"/articles instead of the world of God itself??

I read the Bible often enough to be familiar with all the quotes you choose to ignore - in fact have to ignore, in order to maintain your position.

 

[Kylie]

Sometimes they translated the word predestined to mean foreknown, basically. In the modern sense it seems to mean pre determined. What was predetermined by God before the world began was that Jesus would die for sinners to give them the choice to choose life.

You still don't seem to see the contradiction...

 

[AV1611VET]

That bears absolutely no relevance to the Bible's teaching on predestination.

We are predestined to be adopted.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

... and adoption means SON PLACED, not SON MADE.

 

[lesliedellow]

We are predestined to be adopted.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

... and adoption means SON PLACED, not SON MADE.

Now you are playing with words. Predestination to adoption as the children of God implies, and is implied by, predestination to salvation - or predestination to eternal destruction for those not adopted.

 

[AV1611VET]

Now you are playing with words.

No I'm not.

Ask any mother who has adopted a child if she gave birth to that child.

Predestination to damnation is nothing more than a parallel to Hinduism.

I don't know if your John Calvin taught that, but he certainly lived during the time Hinduism got started.

It's a damnable heresy that encourages people not to pray for the salvation of others; or even feel sorry for them.

 

[dysert]

Which, of course, is anyone and everyone.

What's this, AV? Your post makes it sound like you've become a universalist.

 

[AV1611VET]

What's this, AV? Your post makes it sound like you've become a universalist.

It does, doesn't it!?

What we're dealing with is a doctrine known as predestination.

In Biblical predestination, God adopts those who have been born again into His family.

 

[dysert]

It does, doesn't it!?

What we're dealing with is a doctrine known as predestination.

In Biblical predestination, God adopts those who have been born again into His family.

Yes, I realize the conversation is about predestination, but that doesn't have to make someone a universalist. Have you forsaken your Baptist heritage ;-)?

 

[AV1611VET]

Yes, I realize the conversation is about predestination, but that doesn't have to make someone a universalist. Have you forsaken your Baptist heritage ;-)?

In universalism, people die and go to heaven ... period.

But you'll very seldom, if ever, hear someone harp on universalism being an affront to free will.

 

[lesliedellow]

Ask any mother who has adopted a child if she gave birth to that child.

There is only one answer which could be given, which is no. Completely irrelevant anyhow.

Predestination to damnation is nothing more than a parallel to Hinduism.

So St Paul was a Hindu.

I don't know if your John Calvin taught that, but he certainly lived during the time Hinduism got started.

I don't know who taught you history when you were at school, but he or she should have been fired.

It's a damnable heresy that encourages people not to pray for the salvation of others; or even feel sorry for them.

Not true. Calvinists themselves categorise ideas such as that as hyper Calvinism, and heretical.

 

[lesliedellow]

In Biblical predestination, God adopts those who have been born again into His family.

I know it is a bit damn inconvenient for you, but the Bible says that predestination was before the foundation of the world.