The stumbling block for atheists.

[HitchSlap]

Wow ... just wow.

Some time ago, a well-known and much sought-after evangelist here in America smashed his thumb while working and went to the emergency room.

While there, the staff noticed he was "acting funny" (he has aseptic meningitis) and called the psych doctor, who examined him.

After asking him such questions as: Do you talk to God? do you believe the Earth is coming to an end soon? do you look forward to dying? is the Devil out to get you?

... he had him confined to the psychiatric ward for further testing.

It took his wife about a week to get a Christian psychiatrist to override the ER doctor's initial orders and free him.

That sort of bologna is reflected throughout C&E and P&LS and frankly, isn't funny.

It's an attitude toward Christianity specifically and religion in general that causes unwarranted consequences.

AV, you know as well as I do that this never happened.

 

[AV1611VET]

AV, you know as well as I do that this never happened.

I beg your pardon?

 

[bhsmte]

I beg your pardon?

What did you not understand about his post?

 

[dad]

You don't have a choice if the outcome can only be one way.

It does not say the outcome can only be one way. It says we are chosen, and anyone that choses God IS chosen also of God! If people reject the gift of salvation, then they have blotted themselves out of the book of life.

Can you show that we will be rejected if we ask Jesus for mercy and forgiveness?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Can you show that we will be rejected if we ask Jesus for mercy and forgiveness?

Can you show that we won't?

 

[dad]

Arminians who try to use that line of argument miss the point that there would be no need for God to predestine anybody to X if he knew that they were going to choose X anyway.

Even atheists can see what Arminians don't want to see.

Do you think anyone that asks for forgiveness and mercy and comes to Jesus will be rejected??

 

[dad]

Can you show that we won't?

Yes, of course.

Joh 6:37 -All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Yes, of course.

Joh 6:37 -All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

That only shows that you agree with a quote from the Book of John

 

[lesliedellow]

Do you think anyone that asks for forgiveness and mercy and comes to Jesus will be rejected??

They will not do that unless God has chosen them for salvation, and drawn them to himself, and, if he has prestined them to salvation, God's will cannot be frustrated, so they will certainly come to him.

 

[lesliedellow]

Yes, of course.
Joh 6:37 -All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

You said it. "All that the Father giveth me...." And who does the Father give to the Son? Those he has chosen for salvation.

 

[HitchSlap]

I beg your pardon?

Your anecdote never happened.

 

[dad]

That only shows that you agree with a quote from the Book of John

Isa 55:1 - Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live;

(it is not..if you are predestined, then your soul will drink and live)


Ac 10:34 - Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: (God doesn't ask for the predestination credit card from us to accept us)

John 3:16 - God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Yes God determined before that man would have this choice, and yes, He knows the future and who will choose. That does not mean He pre determined our real choice.

 

[dad]

They will not do that unless God has chosen them for salvation, and drawn them to himself, and, if he has prestined them to salvation, God's will cannot be frustrated, so they will certainly come to him.

I don't believe you. Jesus didn't doe for nothing. If there is no choice, then there is no reason to die for us so we can chose life! You thought He did it for kicks?

 

[dad]

You said it. "All that the Father giveth me...." And who does the Father give to the Son? Those he has chosen for salvation.

He gives anyone that comes! He gave Jesus so that all the world could be saved if they believe! When we chose Him, really He chose us, because He sent Jesus to die for us. But we still have the choice. I think you read too much into how He knew in advance all things.

 

[lesliedellow]

He gives anyone that comes!

It says in words of one syllable that the giving precedes the coming. You might wish you could reverse that, but it says what it says.

 

[lesliedellow]

I don't believe you. Jesus didn't doe for nothing. If there is no choice, then there is no reason to die for us so we can chose life! You thought He did it for kicks?

You can believe me or not, but there is more than enough evidence that the NT authors took it for granted.

Jesus died to redeem those predestined to salvation by God, and who, being drawn by the Father, come to Jesus.

 

[AV1611VET]

Jesus died to redeem those predestined to salvation by God, and who, being drawn by the Father, come to Jesus.

Which, of course, is anyone and everyone.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

... God determined before that man would have this choice, and yes, He knows the future and who will choose.

If He 'knows the future', then He also knows what choice we will make - which means we cannot choose otherwise, which means we have no choice.

That does not mean He pre determined our real choice.

Our 'real' choice?

He wouldn't need to predetermine our choice if He already knows what it will be, because if it's already known, it's not a 'real' choice; we just have the feeling we've made a choice - it's the illusion of free will.

When people say they made a free choice because in certain circumstances they could have chosen differently, they often omit "... if I'd wanted to", an implicit acknowledgement that their action was dependent on their state of mind at the time; i.e. if their state of mind had been different they would have 'chosen' (acted) differently. In other words, if things had been different, things would have been different. Well, that's a deterministic tautology, not free will and not a coherent argument.

"We must believe in free will - we have no choice" - Isaac Bashevis Singer

Just sayin'

 

[lesliedellow]

Which, of course, is anyone and everyone.

No it isn't. If it was, it is difficult to understand why Paul was expecting his readers to be upset by what he was saying:

"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" (Romans 9.19-20)

 

[Kylie]

It does not say the outcome can only be one way. It says we are chosen, and anyone that choses God IS chosen also of God! If people reject the gift of salvation, then they have blotted themselves out of the book of life.

Can you show that we will be rejected if we ask Jesus for mercy and forgiveness?

How can you not see that the concept of "choice" is entirely incompatible with the concept of "predestined"?