The Strong's Deception

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So that I can better understand your position. Please explain in detail about what point in history do you say that the hebrew scriptures were corrupted?

Where did I say the Hebrew scriptures are corrupted? Although the following text is not in what I believe to be the original script, still yet, to the best of my knowledge, it is not corrupted.

בראשית 18:7 Hebrew OT: WLC (Consonants Only)
ואל־הבקר רץ אברהם ויקח בן־בקר רך וטוב ויתן אל־הנער וימהר לעשות אתו׃

However the above statement may be read and understood in several different ways, but that is not true with the M/T pointed text: in the M/T you have one choice of understanding because of the Pharisaic minded commentary embedded within the text by way of the pointing system which was clearly added to the text.

In order to read the above text one has need of several things before it can be understood: 1) love for the Father and His Word, 2) a knowledge of Elohim in His Word, which only comes by understanding context, reasoning, and key critical doctrines taught in His Word, and, 3) an understanding of Hebrew.

But what is necessary in order to be able to understand and read the M/T pointed text? Is the love of the Father necessary? Is a need for the knowledge of Elohim from His Word necessary? Is an understanding of key critical doctrines taught in His Word necessary? No, all that is necessary is to learn how to read the M/T pointing system because the doctrinal choices have already been decided for the reader by way of vocalization: there is no question in the M/T whether or not the above contains H1239, H1241, or H1242, or a mix of these possibilities, that decision has already been made for the reader by the Masorete commentary embedded into the text via the vocalization pointing system.
 
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Where did I say the Hebrew scriptures are corrupted? Although the following text is not in what I believe to be the original script, still yet, to the best of my knowledge, it is not corrupted.

בראשית 18:7 Hebrew OT: WLC (Consonants Only)
ואל־הבקר רץ אברהם ויקח בן־בקר רך וטוב ויתן אל־הנער וימהר לעשות אתו׃

However the above statement may be read and understood in several different ways, but that is not true with the M/T pointed text: in the M/T you have one choice of understanding because of the Pharisaic minded commentary embedded within the text by way of the pointing system which was clearly added to the text.

In order to read the above text one has need of several things before it can be understood: 1) love for the Father and His Word, 2) a knowledge of Elohim in His Word, which only comes by understanding context, reasoning, and key critical doctrines taught in His Word, and, 3) an understanding of Hebrew.

But what is necessary in order to be able to understand and read the M/T pointed text? Is the love of the Father necessary? Is a need for the knowledge of Elohim from His Word necessary? Is an understanding of key critical doctrines taught in His Word necessary? No, all that is necessary is to learn how to read the M/T pointing system because the doctrinal choices have already been decided for the reader by way of vocalization: there is no question in the M/T whether or not the above contains H1239, H1241, or H1242, or a mix of these possibilities, that decision has already been made for the reader by the Masorete commentary embedded into the text via the vocalization pointing system.

Corrupt:
  1. 2.
    (of a text or a computer database or program) made unreliable by errors or alterations.
    "a progressively corrupt magnetic record is usable nonetheless"

Excerpt: for educational purpose concerning the hebrew script and the importance of oral torah.

[ The Talmud and Karaite manuscripts[8] state that a standard copy of the Hebrew Bible was kept in the court of the Temple in Jerusalem for the benefit of copyists; there were paid correctors of biblical books among the officers of the Temple (Talmud, tractate Ketubot 106a).[9] This copy is mentioned in the Letter of Aristeas (§ 30; comp. Blau, Studien zum Althebr. Buchwesen, p. 100), in the statements of Philo (preamble to his "Analysis of the Political Constitution of the Jews"), and in Josephus (Contra Ap. i. 8).]
 
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Yahudim

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Do you think there would be some benefit to a more accurate replacement for Strong’s in the form of database software that would not assign multiple numbers to the same word?

Also, your earlier remark about the tent-shaped character, was that a reference to the Old Hebrew script that was replaced by the “Square Letters” originally used for writing Imperial Aramaic, presumably as a result of the Babylonian Captivity?
Shalom Brother,

Interesting you should mention programming a database application as a replacement for Strong's concordance. There is an ongoing discussion concerning the scope and methodologies requisite to such a project. Did you have any ideas you might be willing to share?

I should mention that I am on some pretty heavy medication and am preparing for surgery soon, but I'll do my best to hold up my end. ;)
 
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Where did I say the Hebrew scriptures are corrupted? Although the following text is not in what I believe to be the original script, still yet, to the best of my knowledge, it is not corrupted.

בראשית 18:7 Hebrew OT: WLC (Consonants Only)
ואל־הבקר רץ אברהם ויקח בן־בקר רך וטוב ויתן אל־הנער וימהר לעשות אתו׃

However the above statement may be read and understood in several different ways, but that is not true with the M/T pointed text: in the M/T you have one choice of understanding because of the Pharisaic minded commentary embedded within the text by way of the pointing system which was clearly added to the text.

In order to read the above text one has need of several things before it can be understood: 1) love for the Father and His Word, 2) a knowledge of Elohim in His Word, which only comes by understanding context, reasoning, and key critical doctrines taught in His Word, and, 3) an understanding of Hebrew.

But what is necessary in order to be able to understand and read the M/T pointed text? Is the love of the Father necessary? Is a need for the knowledge of Elohim from His Word necessary? Is an understanding of key critical doctrines taught in His Word necessary? No, all that is necessary is to learn how to read the M/T pointing system because the doctrinal choices have already been decided for the reader by way of vocalization: there is no question in the M/T whether or not the above contains H1239, H1241, or H1242, or a mix of these possibilities, that decision has already been made for the reader by the Masorete commentary embedded into the text via the vocalization pointing system.
Words have definitions to convey meanings for the purpose of communication.
Changing the definitions of words beyond the scope of the original is a form of corruption.
Elementary grammar is important. And has been upheld for around 3thousand yrs or so.
You've consecutively implied that the Hebrew script is corrupted.
I asked for When did it become corrupted?
 
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be(t)et lamed resh

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אֲבִ֕ Alef bet is used as descriptive noun such as male progenitor and also used as prefix.
or put simply. The 2 numbers distinguish
H1 as the individual Father
H2 as fathers plural(specific to lineage) prefix or honorific.

I see no deception thus Far
 
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The Liturgist

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Shalom Brother,

Interesting you should mention programming a database application as a replacement for Strong's concordance. There is an ongoing discussion concerning the scope and methodologies requisite to such a project. Did you have any ideas you might be willing to share?

I should mention that I am on some pretty heavy medication and am preparing for surgery soon, but I'll do my best to hold up my end. ;)

I think simply feeding the unicode Hebrew text into a relational database would be sufficient, since one could then simply use some standard SQL queries to, for example, pull up all identical words. And one might use regular expressions to match similar words.

I think MySQL / MariaDB , which are open source, would be adequate, but one might also consider PostgreSQL, which is also open source and is known to offer very good performance on individual fast servers, but I think it might be overkill.

The project could be easily implemented in a scripting language such as Python, Ruby, Node.js, Scala, Clojure or perhaps Perl (although Perl has a reputation for becoming unreadable and thus unmaintainable for larger programs). I also have a friend, who alas fell victim to Mormonism, who is an expert in the very fast and user friendly D programming language, which is a bit like C++ or Java, but more user friendly, in a space where the main competing languages are Rust and Go and Objective C.

For the widest range of possible programmers you would probably want Python and MySQL, or maybe PHP and MySQL if you wanted a web front end, but Python can also be used for server side programming, and the client side programming has to be done in Javascript either way, so Node.JS is also becoming increasingly popular since it allows one to use Javascript for both client-side and server-side programming. Python also has a vast array of libraries for textual analysis which might be hypothetically useful; indeed it has one of the widest collections of useful libraries of any language.
 
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daq

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You've consecutively implied that the Hebrew script is corrupted.
I asked for When did it become corrupted?

That is not true and I just showed you why. Just because you say the Masorete pointing system came from Mosheh doesn't make it true: and just because you then use your error to accuse me of what you and your preferred text have done doesn't make your accusation true either. Even to this day a handwritten Torah is not pointed. My discussion with you is over so that I do not end up reporting you.
 
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The Liturgist

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Shalom Brother,

Interesting you should mention programming a database application as a replacement for Strong's concordance. There is an ongoing discussion concerning the scope and methodologies requisite to such a project. Did you have any ideas you might be willing to share?

I should mention that I am on some pretty heavy medication and am preparing for surgery soon, but I'll do my best to hold up my end. ;)

By the way, God bless you and grant you a speedy recovery!

If you provide your baptismal name (your first name only, and in some cases one is baptized with a different name than what they use on a day to day basis) I can put you on the list of people to pray for that I circulate among clergy. This consists of Christians, and a separate section of people who do not believe in Jesus Christ, but rather are adherents of various non-Christian religions, who are identified by their given name, since they lack a baptismal name, but I still pray for them out of charity, and because our Lord commanded us to pray even for our enemies and bless those who curse us, and furthermore most of the people on this list are my friends, and I pray that they might have faith and be saved, and for their health, and for other prayer requests, since sometimes I get these even from people who do not profess our faith, whereas the Christians, who are identified by their baptismal name unless they have not yet been baptized (or are members of a denomination like the Quakers which does not practice baptism, in which case it is their given name that is used), are likewise prayed for, according to their specific needs and requests.

By the way, no offense is intended in referring to Messianic Judaism as Christianity; I don’t know if you object to that or not, but I have nothing but love for you and what you are doing, despite being a pastor from a different ecclesiastical tradition. In particular, one thing I love about Messianic Judaism is the liturgical aspect, since the Divine Office of the early church, namely, Vespers, Compline and Matins, was based on the three daily prayers offered by Second Temple Judaism, which I believe originated with St. Ezra, who also introduced the synagogues and the reading of the Torah and Haftarah within them and at the Temple, over a one year or possibly a three year period, and this was directly integrated into the lectionary of the Assyrian Church of the East for its Old Testament lessons, and was the basis for reading a New Testament lesson followed by a Gospel lesson, and for having elaborate Gospel books that are venerated much like Torah scrolls. And Assyrian and Armenian churches even have a bema!

I have an Orthodox Jewish Siddur, a Karaite Siddur, and also a very rare translation of the Samaritan prayer book known as the Defter. I am really interested in seeing Messianic Jewish prayer books and also in the development of the Messianic Jewish liturgy.
 
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or put simply. The 2 numbers distinguish
H1 as the individual Father
H2 as fathers plural(specific to lineage) prefix or honorific.

I see no deception thus Far
Look. See.

The KJV translates Strong's H1 in the following manner: father (1,205x), chief (2x), families (2x), desire (1x), fatherless (with H369) (1x), forefathers (with H7223) (1x), patrimony (1x), prince (1x), principal (1x).


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Gen 2:24

Therefore shall a man leave his father H1 and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.



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Gen 4:20

And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father H1 of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle.



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Gen 4:21

And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father H1 of all such as handle the harp and organ.



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Gen 9:18

And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father H1 of Canaan.



The KJV translates Strong's H2 in the following manner: father (9x).

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Dan 5:2

Belshazzar, whiles he tasted the wine, commanded to bring the golden and silver vessels which his father H2 Nebuchadnezzar had taken out of the temple which was in Jerusalem; that the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, might drink therein.



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Dan 5:11

There is a man in thy kingdom, in whom is the spirit of the holy gods; and in the days of thy father H2 light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, was found in him; whom the king Nebuchadnezzar thy father, H2 the king, I say, thy father, H2 made master of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, and soothsayers;



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Dan 5:13

Then was Daniel brought in before the king. And the king spake and said unto Daniel, Art thou that Daniel, which art of the children of the captivity of Judah, whom the king my father H2 brought out of Jewry?



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Dan 5:18

O thou king, the most high God gave Nebuchadnezzar thy father H2 a kingdom, and majesty, and glory, and honour:

 
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Do you think there would be some benefit to a more accurate replacement for Strong’s in the form of database software that would not assign multiple numbers to the same word?
Great idea.
Interesting you should mention programming a database application as a replacement for Strong's concordance. There is an ongoing discussion concerning the scope and methodologies requisite to such a project. Did you have any ideas you might be willing to share?
This is great!
 
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Also, your earlier remark about the tent-shaped character, was that a reference to the Old Hebrew script that was replaced by the “Square Letters” originally used for writing Imperial Aramaic, presumably as a result of the Babylonian Captivity?
Here is a depiction of an Ancient Hebrew letter B, or Bet in Hebrew:


1711052720596.png


It depicts the floor plan of a tent.

To me it looks like walls with a door and a doorway.

However, I have read that the men would sleep at the doorway of the tent, to offer the women more protection; and that the women would sleep in the walled, partitioned, area.
 
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be(t)et lamed resh

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or put simply. The 2 numbers distinguish
H1 as the individual Father
H2 as fathers plural(specific to lineage) prefix or honorific.

I see no deception thus Far

Look. See.

The KJV translates Strong's H1 in the following manner: father (1,205x), chief (2x), families (2x), desire (1x), fatherless (with H369) (1x), forefathers (with H7223) (1x), patrimony (1x), prince (1x), principal (1x).


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Gen 2:24

Therefore shall a man leave his father H1 and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.



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Gen 4:20

And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father H1 of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle.



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Gen 4:21

And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father H1 of all such as handle the harp and organ.



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Gen 9:18

And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father H1 of Canaan.



The KJV translates Strong's H2 in the following manner: father (9x).

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Dan 5:2

Belshazzar, whiles he tasted the wine, commanded to bring the golden and silver vessels which his father H2 Nebuchadnezzar had taken out of the temple which was in Jerusalem; that the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, might drink therein.



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Dan 5:11

There is a man in thy kingdom, in whom is the spirit of the holy gods; and in the days of thy father H2 light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, was found in him; whom the king Nebuchadnezzar thy father, H2 the king, I say, thy father, H2 made master of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, and soothsayers;



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Dan 5:13

Then was Daniel brought in before the king. And the king spake and said unto Daniel, Art thou that Daniel, which art of the children of the captivity of Judah, whom the king my father H2 brought out of Jewry?



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Dan 5:18

O thou king, the most high God gave Nebuchadnezzar thy father H2 a kingdom, and majesty, and glory, and honour:

H1 example bolded
וַיִּהְיוּ בְנֵי-נֹחַ, הַיֹּצְאִים מִן-הַתֵּבָה--שֵׁם, וְחָם וָיָפֶת; וְחָם, הוּא אֲבִי כְנָעַן.18 And the sons of Noah, that went forth from the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth; and Ham is the father of Canaan.

H2 example bolded
אִיתַי גְּבַר בְּמַלְכוּתָךְ, דִּי רוּחַ אֱלָהִין קַדִּישִׁין בֵּהּ, וּבְיוֹמֵי אֲבוּךְ נַהִירוּ וְשָׂכְלְתָנוּ וְחָכְמָה כְּחָכְמַת-אֱלָהִין, הִשְׁתְּכַחַת בֵּהּ; וּמַלְכָּא נְבֻכַדְנֶצַּר, אֲבוּךְ--רַב חַרְטֻמִּין אָשְׁפִין כַּשְׂדָּאִין גָּזְרִין, הֲקִימֵהּ אֲבוּךְ מַלְכָּא.11 there is a man in thy kingdom, in whom is the spirit of the holy gods; and in the days of thy father light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, was found in him; and the king Nebuchadnezzar thy father, the king, I say, thy father, made him master of the magicians, enchanters, Chaldeans, and astrologers;
 
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H1 example bolded
וַיִּהְיוּ בְנֵי-נֹחַ, הַיֹּצְאִים מִן-הַתֵּבָה--שֵׁם, וְחָם וָיָפֶת; וְחָם, הוּא אֲבִי כְנָעַן.18 And the sons of Noah, that went forth from the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth; and Ham is the father of Canaan.
H2 example bolded

13Then Daniel was brought in before the king. The king raised his voice and said to Daniel, "You are Daniel, who is of the exiles of Judea, whom my father brought from Judea. יגבֵּאדַ֙יִן֙ דָּֽנִיֵּ֔אל הֻעַ֖ל קֳדָ֣ם מַלְכָּ֑א עָנֵ֨ה מַלְכָּ֜א וְאָמַ֣ר לְדָֽנִיֵּ֗אל אַנְתְּ־ (כתיב אַנְתְּה) ה֚וּא דָֽנִיֵּאל֙ דִּֽי־מִן־בְּנֵ֚י גָֽלוּתָא֙ דִּ֣י יְה֔וּד דִּ֥י הַיְתִ֛י מַלְכָּ֥א אַ֖בִי מִן־יְהֽוּד:
 
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H2 example bolded

13Then Daniel was brought in before the king. The king raised his voice and said to Daniel, "You are Daniel, who is of the exiles of Judea, whom my father brought from Judea.יגבֵּאדַ֙יִן֙ דָּֽנִיֵּ֔אל הֻעַ֖ל קֳדָ֣ם מַלְכָּ֑א עָנֵ֨ה מַלְכָּ֜א וְאָמַ֣ר לְדָֽנִיֵּ֗אל אַנְתְּ־ (כתיב אַנְתְּה) ה֚וּא דָֽנִיֵּאל֙ דִּֽי־מִן־בְּנֵ֚י גָֽלוּתָא֙ דִּ֣י יְה֔וּד דִּ֥י הַיְתִ֛י מַלְכָּ֥א אַ֖בִי מִן־יְהֽוּד:
Nice work. That most certainly is confusing. Now to find out if there is an error on blue letter bible or the original strongs reference print. Definitely interesting.
 
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Nice work. That most certainly is confusing. Now to find out if there is an error on blue letter bible or the original strongs reference print. Definitely interesting.
1711126287405.png


The CLV gives me the same.

Glory to our heavenly father that you are beginning to see it.
 
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daq

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Look. See.

The KJV translates Strong's H1 in the following manner: father (1,205x), chief (2x), families (2x), desire (1x), fatherless (with H369) (1x), forefathers (with H7223) (1x), patrimony (1x), prince (1x), principal (1x).


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Gen 2:24

Therefore shall a man leave his father H1 and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.



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Gen 4:20

And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father H1 of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle.



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Gen 4:21

And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father H1 of all such as handle the harp and organ.



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Gen 9:18

And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father H1 of Canaan.



The KJV translates Strong's H2 in the following manner: father (9x).

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Dan 5:2

Belshazzar, whiles he tasted the wine, commanded to bring the golden and silver vessels which his father H2 Nebuchadnezzar had taken out of the temple which was in Jerusalem; that the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, might drink therein.



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Dan 5:11

There is a man in thy kingdom, in whom is the spirit of the holy gods; and in the days of thy father H2 light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, was found in him; whom the king Nebuchadnezzar thy father, H2 the king, I say, thy father, H2 made master of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, and soothsayers;



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Dan 5:13

Then was Daniel brought in before the king. And the king spake and said unto Daniel, Art thou that Daniel, which art of the children of the captivity of Judah, whom the king my father H2 brought out of Jewry?



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Dan 5:18

O thou king, the most high God gave Nebuchadnezzar thy father H2 a kingdom, and majesty, and glory, and honour:


Shalom HARK.

Daniel 5 is written in Aramaic, (ארמית), or as the KJV puts it, "Syriack", which is yet another evidence that the more modern square Ashuri script was borrowed from the Aramaic script of the nations, even though the two languages are not the same. In the following passage the text changes from Hebrew to Aramaic right in the midst of the statement, and it does so right on the word Aramaic, (KJV Syriack). The portion highlighted in blue is Aramaic which continues through the end of the seventh chapter.

Daniel 2:4 KJV
4 Then spake the Chaldeans to the king in Syriack, [ארמית (Aramaic)] O king, live for ever: tell thy servants the dream, and we will shew the interpretation.

From this point in the text, all the way through Daniel 7:28, the text is not Hebrew but Aramaic: then the Hebrew language resumes with Daniel 8:1, and Sefer Daniel is completed in Hebrew. This is something else to be aware of in your endeavor here, for indeed אב in Daniel 5 should have a separate number classification because in this portion of the scripture it is not Hebrew but Aramaic, a different language, (for example see 2Kgs 18:26-28 and Isa 36:11-13), even though the character set is the same.
 
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be(t)et lamed resh

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Shalom HARK.

Daniel 5 is written in Aramaic, (ארמית), or as the KJV puts it, "Syriack", which is yet another evidence that the more modern square Ashuri script was borrowed from the Aramaic script of the nations, even though the two languages are not the same. In the following passage the text changes from Hebrew to Aramaic right in the midst of the statement, and it does so right on the word Aramaic, (KJV Syriack). The portion highlighted in blue is Aramaic which continues through the end of the seventh chapter.

Daniel 2:4 KJV
4 Then spake the Chaldeans to the king in Syriack, [ארמית (Aramaic)] O king, live for ever: tell thy servants the dream, and we will shew the interpretation.

From this point in the text, all the way through Daniel 7:28, the text is not Hebrew but Aramaic: then the Hebrew language resumes with Daniel 8:1, and Sefer Daniel is completed in Hebrew. This is something else to be aware of in your endeavor here, for indeed אב in Daniel 5 should have a separate number classification because in this portion of the scripture it is not Hebrew but Aramaic, a different language, (for example see 2Kgs 18:26-28 and Isa 36:11-13), even though the character set is the same.
If so, That seems counter intuitive on strongs part in creating a lexicon. What then does alef bet vav kaf instead of alef bet yod mean in this equation?
Just a note I dont use strongs and vaguely know about it.
 
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be(t)et lamed resh

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View attachment 344471

The CLV gives me the same.

Glory to our heavenly father that you are beginning to see it.
I recall the phrase, a computer never makes mistakes"! That's because if errors arise it's due to human input.
In this case there are still a number of variables to dissect. Multiple internet sources of information so called strongs. First would be to compare their information with a print. Which is a process known as editing.
 
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HARK!

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I recall the phrase, a computer never makes mistakes"! That's because if errors arise it's due to human input.
That phrase is in error.


In this case there are still a number of variables to dissect. Multiple internet sources of information so called strongs. First would be to compare their information with a print. Which is a process known as editing.
Have at it; and there is no Easter Bunny.
 
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