The Strongest Arguments for Predestination

1watchman

Overseer
Site Supporter
Oct 9, 2010
6,039
1,226
Washington State
✟358,358.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It is important to keep in mind that the overall truth of election and predestination is foreknowledge. God knows every soul even before they were born (e.g. Jeremiah 1:5). He knows who will have a thankful heart to the Creator and respond to the "quickening" to light. The gospel is to all, but all will not receive it, which God knows full well. He will thus elect those He chooses, for faithful souls are "chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world". The man Judas was a suitable vessel for the vile deed of betrayal, because he was greedy and a self-exalted one, and God used him.

- 1 Watchman
 
Upvote 0
S

SeraphimsCherub

Guest

2. In examining ourselves, the search which divine truth enjoins, and the knowledge which it demands, are such as may indispose us to every thing like confidence in our own powers, leave us devoid of all means of boasting, and so incline us to submission. This is the course which we must follow, if we would attain to the true goal, both in speculation and practice. I am not unaware how much more plausible the view is, which invites us rather to ponder on our good qualities, than to contemplate what must overwhelm us with shame—our miserable destitution and ignominy. There is nothing more acceptable to the human mind than flattery, and, accordingly, when told that its endowments are of a high order, it is apt to be excessively credulous. Hence it is not strange that the greater part of mankind have erred so egregiously in this matter. Owing to the innate self-love by which all are blinded, we most willingly persuade ourselves that we do not possess a single quality which is deserving of hatred; and hence, independent of any countenance from without, general credit is given to the very foolish idea, that man is perfectly sufficient of himself for all the purposes of a good and happy life. If any are disposed to think more modestly, and concede somewhat to God, that they may not seem to arrogate every thing as their own, still, in making the division, they apportion matters so, that the chief ground of confidence and boasting always remains with themselves. Then, if a discourse is pronounced which flatters the pride spontaneously springing up in man’s inmost heart, nothing seems more delightful. Accordingly, in every age, he who is most forward in extolling the excellence of human nature, is received with the loudest applause. But be this heralding of human excellence what it may, by teaching man to rest in himself, it does nothing more than fascinate by its sweetness, and, at the same time, so delude as to drown in perdition all who assent to it. For what avails it to proceed in vain confidence, to deliberate, resolve, plan, and attempt what we deem pertinent to the purpose, and, at the very outset, prove deficient and destitute both of sound intelligence and true virtue, though we still confidently persist till we rush headlong on destruction? But this is the best that can happen to those who put confidence in their own powers. Whosoever, therefore, gives heed to those teachers, who merely employ us in contemplating our good qualities, so far from making progress in self-knowledge, will be plunged into the most pernicious ignorance—Institutes of the Christian Religion

7. In this way, then, man is said to have free will, not because he has a free choice of good and evil, but because he acts voluntarily, and not by compulsion. This is perfectly true: but why should so small a matter have been dignified with so proud a title? An admirable freedom! that man is not forced to be the servant of sin, while he is, however, ἐθελοδουλος (a voluntary slave); his will being bound by the fetters of sin. I abominate mere verbal disputes, by which the Church is harassed to no purpose; but I think we ought religiously to eschew terms which imply some absurdity, especially in subjects where error is of pernicious consequence. How few are there who, when they hear free will attributed to man, do not immediately imagine that he is the master of his mind and will in such a sense, that he can of himself incline himself either to good or evil? It may be said that such dangers are removed by carefully expounding the meaning to the people. But such is the proneness of the human mind to go astray, that it will more quickly draw error from one little word, than truth from a lengthened discourse. Of this, the very term in question furnishes too strong a proof. For the explanation given by ancient Christian writers having been lost sight of, almost all who have come after them, by attending only to the etymology of the term, have been led to indulge a fatal confidence.
—Institutes of the Christian Religion
 
Upvote 0
Jul 19, 2010
152
5
✟309.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Free will and predestination are truths that balance each other, but absolute predication of predestination has fatal consequences for humble people than free will predication; Saint Ignacio de Loloya in "Ejercicios Espirituales" notes this truth;

Predestination regarless free will leeds ignorant people to leave effort on justice and mercy, because they will think that concerning on salvation is useless, against gospel;

Christ said that salvation is for those who try hard and go through narrow path, and they who go through wide path go to hell.

Christ said that the lasy brides will not enter in the wedding hall, and that diligent brides will enter with the groom.

Christ said that those who do not make their cons increase will go outside to darkness and teeth grinding, and those who try hard and increase coins will receive kingdoms.

Christ said that those who are not merciful will have no mercy and will go to hell.

Christ said that those who persevere to the end will be saved.

So, why calvinist justifies their wrong doctrine in the bible?
 
Upvote 0
Oct 26, 2010
58
3
Virginia, USA
✟7,705.00
Faith
Wesleyan
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
It is important to keep in mind that the overall truth of election and predestination is foreknowledge. God knows every soul even before they were born (e.g. Jeremiah 1:5). He knows who will have a thankful heart to the Creator and respond to the "quickening" to light. The gospel is to all, but all will not receive it, which God knows full well. He will thus elect those He chooses, for faithful souls are "chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world". The man Judas was a suitable vessel for the vile deed of betrayal, because he was greedy and a self-exalted one, and God used him.

- 1 Watchman

Good articulation of a good point.
 
Upvote 0
Oct 26, 2010
58
3
Virginia, USA
✟7,705.00
Faith
Wesleyan
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Free will and predestination are truths that balance each other, but absolute predication of predestination has fatal consequences for humble people than free will predication; Saint Ignacio de Loloya in "Ejercicios Espirituales" notes this truth;

Predestination regarless free will leeds ignorant people to leave effort on justice and mercy, because they will think that concerning on salvation is useless, against gospel;

Christ said that salvation is for those who try hard and go through narrow path, and they who go through wide path go to hell.

Christ said that the lasy brides will not enter in the wedding hall, and that diligent brides will enter with the groom.

Christ said that those who do not make their cons increase will go outside to darkness and teeth grinding, and those who try hard and increase coins will receive kingdoms.

Christ said that those who are not merciful will have no mercy and will go to hell.

Christ said that those who persevere to the end will be saved.

So, why calvinist justifies their wrong doctrine in the bible?

I think that the issue comes from a synthesis of predestination and free will.
 
Upvote 0

Hairy Tic

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2005
1,574
71
✟2,144.00
Faith
Catholic
Saying "You are wrong, because your mind is darkened while I have supernatural enlightenment beyond human understanding" is not a good argument.
##
The trouble is, that this argument has NT sanction - which is not exactly helpful.

I think it has some validity - not as an argument between persons, but as a description of how people might consider themselves at different stages of their lives.

One of the things this debate is bringing to the surface is that while the OP does not set much store on natural reason, some of us do - Calvinism is supicious of any theology not based on revelation & grace, whereas
theologies of a more catholic type see amuch greater continuity between nature, even in its fallen state, and grace. Neither is objection-proof, AFAICS :)

What bothers me about Paul's method in Romans is that his "But who art thou, o man...?" has a strong whiff of brow-beating about it :) - but if something ascribed to God seems unfair, it ought be possible to go into just why it seems to be unfair. There is a moral problem with what Paul attributes to God - & while Paul's ad hominem question may manage to shut people up, that is not the same as clearing God of unfairness.

In fact, Paul's reply could well have the far from desirable result, that people believe in a Divine Justice that bears no relation to what man calls justice; so that they have to give the idea of justice two contradictory meanings, according as they are thinking of God or of man. But that is schizophrenic - what we call hate, & condemn as such, may be what God is considered to mean by love. It encourages the widening of the division between what seems to be just, and what people are told to believe is just, until the two are divided by a chasm. And if nature is so unlike God, how can it be give clues to his being & character, as it is said to do in Romans 1 ? The argument there made by Paul requires some sort of continuity between human perception, & Divine Reality - not the contradiction & disjunction latent in the logic of Romans 9:19-21. Unless St.Paul's words are to be taken in a different sense from that which they seem to have.

Since this very alarming idea is negated by text after text, & most of all by those about Jesus, Whose Love is recognisable as what men think of as love, greatly as it exceeds it, Paul's
ad hominem question is in my opinion closer to parts of the OT (from which indeed it comes) than to the "newness" worked by Christ, of which St. Paul is an apostle.

And if an idea about God suggests He is less good than man - surely there is something wrong with it; regardless of any great names that promote it
.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,821
10,795
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟834,158.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Free will and predestination are truths that balance each other, but absolute predication of predestination has fatal consequences for humble people than free will predication; Saint Ignacio de Loloya in "Ejercicios Espirituales" notes this truth;

Predestination regarless free will leeds ignorant people to leave effort on justice and mercy, because they will think that concerning on salvation is useless, against gospel;

Christ said that salvation is for those who try hard and go through narrow path, and they who go through wide path go to hell.

Christ said that the lasy brides will not enter in the wedding hall, and that diligent brides will enter with the groom.

Christ said that those who do not make their cons increase will go outside to darkness and teeth grinding, and those who try hard and increase coins will receive kingdoms.

Christ said that those who are not merciful will have no mercy and will go to hell.

Christ said that those who persevere to the end will be saved.

So, why calvinist justifies their wrong doctrine in the bible?

What you seem to be advocating is salvation by works. Are you saying that being saved is not by God's unmerited grace, but is a reward for persevering in living a holy life?

Where does the Scripture support that? From what I read is that Paul said that we are saved by grace and not by works; it is the gift of God and not of ourselves lest any man should boast.

So, if salvation is a reward for being merciful and persevering in a holy life, then it is not a gift of God, but a reward for good works, Salvation by works is no salvation at all, and Jesus would not have had to come and die for our sins and be a sacrifice for our guilt and punishment.

You are confusing Justification, which is salvation by grace, and Sanctification, which is living a holy life. A person has to be saved by the unmerited grace of God before he can start to live a holy life.

An unsaved person trying to live a holy life in order to be saved is on a hopeless journey because even his attempts at goodness, outside of Christ, is just another degree of badness, and as the Scripture says, all our righteousness is as filthy (menstrual) rags in the sight of God. All that a person gains in trying to be good to gain a reward from God is self-righteousness, and this is an abomination to God.

There is no salvation in any other except in Christ. And a person saved through Christ is saved by the pure grace and mercy of God, before any good works are attempted.

I suggest you read the books of Romans and Galatians a little more carefully, and get a reliable commentary that will explain it to you. Martin Luther's commentary on Galatians is an excellent work to help you understand what Justification is all about.
 
Upvote 0
Oct 26, 2010
58
3
Virginia, USA
✟7,705.00
Faith
Wesleyan
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
What you seem to be advocating is salvation by works. Are you saying that being saved is not by God's unmerited grace, but is a reward for persevering in living a holy life?

Where does the Scripture support that? From what I read is that Paul said that we are saved by grace and not by works; it is the gift of God and not of ourselves lest any man should boast.

So, if salvation is a reward for being merciful and persevering in a holy life, then it is not a gift of God, but a reward for good works, Salvation by works is no salvation at all, and Jesus would not have had to come and die for our sins and be a sacrifice for our guilt and punishment.

You are confusing Justification, which is salvation by grace, and Sanctification, which is living a holy life. A person has to be saved by the unmerited grace of God before he can start to live a holy life.

An unsaved person trying to live a holy life in order to be saved is on a hopeless journey because even his attempts at goodness, outside of Christ, is just another degree of badness, and as the Scripture says, all our righteousness is as filthy (menstrual) rags in the sight of God. All that a person gains in trying to be good to gain a reward from God is self-righteousness, and this is an abomination to God.

There is no salvation in any other except in Christ. And a person saved through Christ is saved by the pure grace and mercy of God, before any good works are attempted.

I suggest you read the books of Romans and Galatians a little more carefully, and get a reliable commentary that will explain it to you. Martin Luther's commentary on Galatians is an excellent work to help you understand what Justification is all about.

If you go back to the first paragraph, I believe he was stating how that absolute predestination leaves out grace and mercy, whereas predestination balanced with free will (like we have discussed) is more biblicly accurate.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,821
10,795
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟834,158.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
If you go back to the first paragraph, I believe he was stating how that absolute predestination leaves out grace and mercy, whereas predestination balanced with free will (like we have discussed) is more biblicly accurate.

Ok. I agree with you. Absolute predestination is fatalism, because it gives the individual no control over his future. I believe that every does have control over their future, and yet they are predestined as well. I think that how this works is something we have to accept by faith because the Bible teaches it, because we tie ourselves up in knots when we try to work it out with our natural minds.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
S

SeraphimsCherub

Guest
I believe no matter what i think, will, do, and say! That God is In Control of it all! We could not be able to have 1 ounce of power to think, and logically reason every second of every day if it were not for GOD!!! I live with someone who has Alzhiemers! Who lives in a human body,yet has no more ability than a cat to think,and reason! We are powerless to take in our very next breath!! Unless GOD "Chooses" to give it to us, Amen!

SeraphimsCherub
 
Upvote 0
Jul 19, 2010
152
5
✟309.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
What you seem to be advocating is salvation by works. Are you saying that being saved is not by God's unmerited grace, but is a reward for persevering in living a holy life?

Where does the Scripture support that? From what I read is that Paul said that we are saved by grace and not by works; it is the gift of God and not of ourselves lest any man should boast.

So, if salvation is a reward for being merciful and persevering in a holy life, then it is not a gift of God, but a reward for good works, Salvation by works is no salvation at all, and Jesus would not have had to come and die for our sins and be a sacrifice for our guilt and punishment.

You are confusing Justification, which is salvation by grace, and Sanctification, which is living a holy life. A person has to be saved by the unmerited grace of God before he can start to live a holy life.

An unsaved person trying to live a holy life in order to be saved is on a hopeless journey because even his attempts at goodness, outside of Christ, is just another degree of badness, and as the Scripture says, all our righteousness is as filthy (menstrual) rags in the sight of God. All that a person gains in trying to be good to gain a reward from God is self-righteousness, and this is an abomination to God.

There is no salvation in any other except in Christ. And a person saved through Christ is saved by the pure grace and mercy of God, before any good works are attempted.

I suggest you read the books of Romans and Galatians a little more carefully, and get a reliable commentary that will explain it to you. Martin Luther's commentary on Galatians is an excellent work to help you understand what Justification is all about.

Luther in commentary of Galatians says that human deeds are always evil, deserving the punishement of hell, against catholic doctrine, set up in Trento: human deeds are good or evil according to obedience at God. So a heathen can make good deeds; this is the right understanding of scripture, according to scripture itself: Cornelius, before becoming christian through predication of Peter, prayed to God and was merciful, and the Angel of God revealed him that he pleased the Lord.

According to calvinist, heathens are doomed always, but catholic doctrine, a more sound doctrine that calvinist doctrine is, teaches that a heathen can be saved by his obedience at God.

In fact, obedience at God is the action of Christ: he is the son; so, when a man obeys God, is working in the work of Christ, so he is in the road of salvation. Christianity provides and breeds men for salvation plentiful, but a heathen can be saved without these advantages. I like the creed of Valdens because their point on sacraments is very sound.

Before revealed religion (christianity), there´s a natural religion, based on obedience at God and raison: this natural religion demands revealed religion, but the light of both is the same: Christ. Calvinist are opposed to sound doctrine of obedience, so they are in herexy.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Oct 26, 2010
58
3
Virginia, USA
✟7,705.00
Faith
Wesleyan
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
I believe no matter what i think, will, do, and say! That God is In Control of it all! We could not be able to have 1 ounce of power to think, and logically reason every second of every day if it were not for GOD!!! I live with someone who has Alzhiemers! Who lives in a human body,yet has no more ability than a cat to think,and reason! We are powerless to take in our very next breath!! Unless GOD "Chooses" to give it to us, Amen!

SeraphimsCherub

I am afraid that I do not understand the summation of what you are saying as it pertains to the discussion. Could you please explain?
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,821
10,795
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟834,158.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Luther in commentary of Galatians says that human deeds are always evil, deserving the punishement of hell, against catholic doctrine, set up in Trento: human deeds are good or evil according to obedience at God. So a heathen can make good deeds; this is the right understanding of scripture, according to scripture itself: Cornelius, before becoming christian through predication of Peter, prayed to God and was merciful, and the Angel of God revealed him that he pleased the Lord.

According to calvinist, heathens are doomed always, but catholic doctrine, a more sound doctrine that calvinist doctrine is, teaches that a heathen can be saved by his obedience at God.

In fact, obedience at God is the action of Christ: he is the son; so, when a man obeys God, is working in the work of Christ, so he is in the road of salvation. Christianity provides and breeds men for salvation plentiful, but a heathen can be saved without these advantages. I like the creed of Valdens because their point on sacraments is very sound.

Before revealed religion (christianity), there´s a natural religion, based on obedience at God and raison: this natural religion demands revealed religion, but the light of both is the same: Christ. Calvinist are opposed to sound doctrine of obedience, so they are in herexy.

Prove by Calvin's own words that he was opposed to the sound doctrine of obedience. Making hearsay statements based on obscure interpretation of Calvin's theology is not sufficient to prove that your last sentence is not mere nonsense which comes from a lack of knowledge of Calvinist doctrine really is.
 
Upvote 0
Jul 19, 2010
152
5
✟309.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Calvin is opposed to the right doctrine of obedience. In his "Introduction of christian doctrine", after exposing the ten commandements, he says that these commandements are impossible to obey, because men are intrinsecally corrupted. Well, this doctrine is wrong; even the 39 articles of anglicanism is according on this point with catholic and right doctrine: ten commandements are compulsory, and God give to every man the strength to carry out them.

In the law there was three kind of commandements: judicial, ceremonial and moral; first two were accomplished by Christ on the cross, now they are not current "I did not come for abolish the law, but for fulfilling it", but moral precepts are for all seasons, according to words of Christ: who does not obey the smallest precept, is the smallest in the kingdom of heavens, and we will be judged according to the moral commandements, it´s to say, according to our deeds "and they will be judged according to written in the books".

Sola fides is spirit of sect; who is in my sect, is saved, who is over, is cursed. But God will be God of everyone, if there´s just one God.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums