The State of the Dead!!!

DennisTate said:

Like you I was convinced of the Soul Sleep Theory from 1973 to 1990 but when I began to read near death experience accounts I was forced to take a whole new look at my understanding of 2 Corinthians 12 verses two to four as well as many other verses like this that in English seem so simple and straightforward but it has been said that English is a legalistic language that was affected by lawyers and legislation over centuries whereas Hebrew and Greek are very different and not so well suited for the production of the loophole free sentence or clause.

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Wow, you don't think that maybe you should believe the scriptures over some random people telling some stories?

yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written,

JacksBratt said:

You are right... I don't know what you call the place where they went. Their consciousness must be somewhere. The unrighteous in one place and the righteous in another.

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Jack the following verses do not support your statements above

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

(does not say is or has but became a living soul, breath of life not the breath of the dead)

Psalm 146:4
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

BrotherD said:

The reward for a righteous and holy life in Christ is the right to live forever.

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so the opposite has to be true

The reward of unrepentant sinners is not have the right to live forever.

truefiction1 said:

All metaphorical imagery, and nothing in it indicates that the devouring fire (which God is) annihilates anyone from existence.

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Maybe you will get a better picture that the devouring fire does annihilate from existence with these verses. Consume and devour gives a better connotation.
Isaiah 1:28
And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed.
Isaiah 5:24
Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the Lord of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 66:17
They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord.
Ezekiel 20:13
But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.
Ezekiel 22:31
Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord God.
Ezekiel 43:8
In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.
2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Do you know who is being spoken of and what is their fate?
Ezekiel 28:18
Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Malachi 4:3
And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

Ashes... another indication of the fate of those who are consumed by fire. Nothing but ashes left. No existence after the fire is finished. It is the example of Sodom and Gomorrha
2 Peter 2:6
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
The people of Sodom and Gomorrha are not living in a lake of fire, they are not still in a state of being burned. They are consumed and nothing but ashes. No life, no existence. The resurrection is the only life after death.

visionary said:

Maybe you will get a better picture that the devouring fire does annihilate from existence with these verses. Consume and devour gives a better connotation.
Isaiah 1:28
And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed.
Isaiah 5:24
Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the Lord of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 66:17
They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord.
Ezekiel 20:13
But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.
Ezekiel 22:31
Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord God.
Ezekiel 43:8
In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.
2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Do you know who is being spoken of and what is their fate?
Ezekiel 28:18
Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Malachi 4:3
And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

Ashes... another indication of the fate of those who are consumed by fire. Nothing but ashes left. No existence after the fire is finished. It is the example of Sodom and Gomorrha
2 Peter 2:6
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
The people of Sodom and Gomorrha are not living in a lake of fire, they are not still in a state of being burned. They are consumed and nothing but ashes. No life, no existence. The resurrection is the only life after death.

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It is true that all the wicked are consumed by Fire upon this earth, but this occurs before judgment has taken place and before the wicked are cast into the lake of fire. The consumption spoken of here is not the Lake of fire, but is instead the all consuming fire brought by Yahshua when he comes and destroys the Heavens, Earth, and wicked with fire before judgement(Isaiah 2:19-21; Isaiah 26:21; Isaiah 66:15-17; Hosea 10:8; Joel 2:10-11,31; Micah 1:3-4; Zephaniah 1:2-3,18; Zeph 2:2; Zeph 3:8; Haggai 2:6-7; Malachi 4:1; Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thess 4:16; 2 Thess 1:7-9; 1 Peter 3:10; Revelation 6:12-17; Revelation 20:9).

After the heavens, earth, and wicked are destroyed by fire we see those in Hell(the grave/sheol) given up to be judged(Daniel 12:2; Revelation 20:9,11-15) having to stand before the Lord(Romans 14:10; 2 Timothy 4:1; Revelation 20:12) and give account of themselves(Matt 12:36-37; Romans 14:12; 1 Peter 4:5) and being judged out of the books that are opened(Daniel 12:1; Revelation 20:12-13,15) everyone not found in the book of life will be cast into the Lake of Fire to suffer the second death(Ezekiel 18:20; Romans 6:23; James 1:15; Revelation 20:12-15) Where the Wicked will suffer eternal torment in the Lake of Fire( Revelation 14:9-11; Revelation 20:12-15) weeping and gnashing their teeth, all the while knowing it was by their own deeds that they came to suffer this fate(Matt 8:12; Matt 13:50; Matt 22:13; Matt 24:51; Matt 25:41,46; Luke 13:28; Revelation 20:12-13).

Basil the Great said:

Yes, it is risky business to attempt to contact the dead through mediums and should probably only be done as a very last resort,

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God said such activity was punishable by death in the OT Theocracy -- you think He just did not realize what a great last-resort this was?

Perhaps one could ask God "Why not let people who want to seek out the dead, pray to the dead etc have this "last resort" the way Saul had it"??

1 Chronicles 10
13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;

Necromancy = witchcraft in the OT

God said "I change not"

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:

It is true that all the wicked are consumed by Fire upon this earth, but this occurs before judgment has taken place and before the wicked are cast into the lake of fire. The consumption spoken of here is not the Lake of fire, but is instead the all consuming fire brought by Yahshua when he comes and destroys the Heavens, Earth, and wicked with fire before judgement(Isaiah 2:19-21; Isaiah 26:21; Isaiah 66:15-17; Hosea 10:8; Joel 2:10-11,31; Micah 1:3-4; Zephaniah 1:2-3,18; Zeph 2:2; Zeph 3:8; Haggai 2:6-7; Malachi 4:1; Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thess 4:16; 2 Thess 1:7-9; 1 Peter 3:10; Revelation 6:12-17; Revelation 20:9).

After the heavens, earth, and wicked are destroyed by fire we see those in Hell(the grave/sheol) given up to be judged .

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In Rev 20 the wicked are judged -- in Rev 21 the first heaven and earth are passed away and a new one created.

Rev 20 the wicked are judged then case into lake of fire -- this is the 2nd death. The one that comes after the first death - the first death is the one that all humans suffer in this life.

Rev 20
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 21
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea

There is only one time when the wicked of all ages are raised, judged and then die.

There is only one time when all the living wicked are destroyed all over the Earth at once -- but the dead wicked are not affected in the least... and that is the 2nd coming.

BobRyan said:

In Rev 20 the wicked are judged -- in Rev 21 the first heaven and earth are passed away and a new one created.

Rev 20 the wicked are judged then case into lake of fire -- this is the 2nd death. The one that comes after the first death - the first death is the one that all humans suffer in this life.

Rev 20
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 21
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea

There is only one time when the wicked of all ages are raised, judged and then die.

There is only one time when all the living wicked are destroyed all over the Earth at once -- but the dead wicked are not affected in the least... and that is the 2nd coming.

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There is indeed only one day of Judgement, that is the Last day at Christ's return with fire. At his coming all the earth, the heavens, and the wicked that are living are destroyed. After this time all that were not part of the first resurrection stand before the Lord to be judged. After this judgement the wicked are cast into the lake of fire for eternity. After everything is destroyed by fire, the New heavens and new earth shown in Revelation 21 comes into play. The first earth and the first heavens having already been destroyed and judgement having already taken place.

All the wicked are judged on the final day, all stand before the Lord to give account of their deeds, and all the wicked are cast into the Lake of fire to suffer eternal torment when their name is not found in the book of Life. The second death is eternal torment in the Lake of fire, the First death is sleep in sheol.

Original Happy Camper said:

Jack the following verses do not support your statements above

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

(does not say is or has but became a living soul, breath of life not the breath of the dead)

Psalm 146:4
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

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I'm not saying anything about God changing.

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:

There is indeed only one day of Judgement, that is the Last day at Christ's return with fire.

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There are three .

Daniel 7 points to one that is before the 2nd coming. Rom 2:13-16 and 2 Cor 5:10 all refer to that future date as well.

There is one that happens during the 1000 years as Rev 20:1-4 points out. 1 Cor 6 also talks about that one.

There is one that happens at the end of of the 1000 years that you see at the end of Rev 20.

BobRyan said:

There are three .

Daniel 7 points to one that is before the 2nd coming. Rom 2:13-16 and 2 Cor 5:10 all refer to that future date as well.

There is one that happens during the 1000 years as Rev 20:1-4 points out. 1 Cor 6 also talks about that one.

There is one that happens at the end of of the 1000 years that you see at the end of Rev 20.

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Romans 2:12,16 and 2 cor 5:10 each speak of the last day when Christ returns with fire, this is the day of judgment shown in Revelation 20 and 1 Cor 6 after the thousand years. This is the judgement for the wicked. The righteous are raised before the thousand years in the first resurrection, they are present when the Lord judges the wicked, as the saints have part in judging the world when the books are opened. This is after the heavens and earth have been destroyed and the wicked were killed bodily by fire. Dan 7 speaks of the same instance of judgement where the books are opened as in revelation 20. Though Daniel 7 also speaks of the valley of the mountain and the kingdom of God that is set up on earth, it speaks of the saints from daniel 2 that are cut out without human hands(small stone) from the mountain(Church) that becomes a great mountain that breaks in pieces and consumes all the other nations.

So again there are two resurrections, one for the wicked after the thousand years and one for the righteous before the thousand years. There is only one day of Judgment for the wicked and that is at/right after Christ's coming with fire to destroy the heavens, earth, and the wicked. This is the judgement that occurs when the books are open and when the dead are given up to be judged after Christ's return.

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:

It is true that all the wicked are consumed by Fire upon this earth, but this occurs before judgment has taken place and before the wicked are cast into the lake of fire. The consumption spoken of here is not the Lake of fire, but is instead the all consuming fire brought by Yahshua when he comes and destroys the Heavens, Earth, and wicked with fire before judgement(Isaiah 2:19-21; Isaiah 26:21; Isaiah 66:15-17; Hosea 10:8; Joel 2:10-11,31; Micah 1:3-4; Zephaniah 1:2-3,18; Zeph 2:2; Zeph 3:8; Haggai 2:6-7; Malachi 4:1; Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thess 4:16; 2 Thess 1:7-9; 1 Peter 3:10; Revelation 6:12-17; Revelation 20:9).

After the heavens, earth, and wicked are destroyed by fire we see those in Hell(the grave/sheol) given up to be judged(Daniel 12:2; Revelation 20:9,11-15) having to stand before the Lord(Romans 14:10; 2 Timothy 4:1; Revelation 20:12) and give account of themselves(Matt 12:36-37; Romans 14:12; 1 Peter 4:5) and being judged out of the books that are opened(Daniel 12:1; Revelation 20:12-13,15) everyone not found in the book of life will be cast into the Lake of Fire to suffer the second death(Ezekiel 18:20; Romans 6:23; James 1:15; Revelation 20:12-15) Where the Wicked will suffer eternal torment in the Lake of Fire( Revelation 14:9-11; Revelation 20:12-15) weeping and gnashing their teeth, all the while knowing it was by their own deeds that they came to suffer this fate(Matt 8:12; Matt 13:50; Matt 22:13; Matt 24:51; Matt 25:41,46; Luke 13:28; Revelation 20:12-13).

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I place the Lake of Fire and the fire that destroys heaven and earth in the same time frame It starts at the gates of the City of God, and spreads from there, until all of heaven and earth are consumed. Judgement can not come after the punishment. Yom Kippur, the day of Atonement better known as Judgment Day not only forever separates the wheat and tares but also pronounces the punishment [sentence]. It is after the second resurrection that punishment is enacted.

All the saints had the millennium to have their tears wiped from those lost. The elders poured over the book of life and the book of the dead and in acknowledgement of Yeshua's ruling, seeing the righteousness of His decisions on the fates of mankind, settle in their hearts His wisdom.

The first part of Yom Kippur, is the covering for the saints. it is the robe of righteousness laid on their shoulders, the eternal life given to them in the wedding ceremony, a perfect union of man and God.

The second part of Yom Kippur is the identifying of the scapegoat, and his banishment to a destined death for the crimes of sin that he has committed in, through, by, and with those who later repented.

With the deceiver arrested and put in "chains", the thousand years of rest begin. Many grow up in the Lord without temptation, learning God's Will more fully, coming to be with God every Sabbath, and all His feasts. The celebration of Yeshua's wedding, is held at the start of the millennium. Travel back and for from earth to heaven is now open. The world flourishes in His glory. The Lion lays down with the lamb. It is the Garden of Eden diet for man and beast. The dead in Yeshua have been raised to participate in the "rest". Both earth and man rest for the thousand years.

At the end of the thousand years, the second resurrection occurs, the wicked dead arise. Satan is loosened from his chains. God's City comes to earth. For the wicked dead rising, their last thought is the start for their first thought, and there is no time frame reference for them to know that the thousand years have come and gone. That is why they did not understand the "great gulf" that Yeshua spoke of in the story of Lazarus, the beggar. Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

It is then that Yeshua lights the lake of fire, as Satan marshes the lost into one last frenzy to scale the Walls of the City of God. This fire is the same one that cleanses the whole earth and consumes heaven and earth. After it is all reduced to ashes, God creates us a new heaven and earth in which to dwell for all eternity, without sin, sinner, or even a hit of the destructions of sin. It is a beautiful Garden of Eden. One big difference is now earth is the Center of the Universe, where God dwells.

visionary said:

Maybe you will get a better picture that the devouring fire does annihilate from existence with these verses. Consume and devour gives a better connotation.
Isaiah 1:28
And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed.
Isaiah 5:24
Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the Lord of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 66:17
They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord.
Ezekiel 20:13
But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.
Ezekiel 22:31
Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord God.
Ezekiel 43:8
In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.
2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Do you know who is being spoken of and what is their fate?
Ezekiel 28:18
Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Malachi 4:3
And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

Ashes... another indication of the fate of those who are consumed by fire. Nothing but ashes left. No existence after the fire is finished. It is the example of Sodom and Gomorrha
2 Peter 2:6
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
The people of Sodom and Gomorrha are not living in a lake of fire, they are not still in a state of being burned. They are consumed and nothing but ashes. No life, no existence. The resurrection is the only life after death.

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It will help you to know that consumed is what God's grace does to everyone, even the righteous who will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, when God becomes "all in all". It does not mean, however, the same thing as annihilation from conscious existence.

It will also help you to know that references to people being turned to ashes are references to their physical bodies, in this age only; not after the end of the ages. The wicked still suffer, as did the rich man in Christ's story about the rich man and Lazarus, and as he described in all of his sayings about hell.

No matter how we may define certain sayings of Scripture to fit our own ideas about what is true, it's just not possible to get around the Scriptural accounts of what Jesus Christ taught about this. Wish for some other possibility if you will, but it's not a good idea to altogether rule out the distinct possibility, even the great likelihood that Christ really meant what he said, and that there will indeed be eternal torment, albeit of one's own choosing. The rich man didn't ask for mercy. He only asked for Lazarus to be sent to serve him by bringing him water. Even in his suffering he could not learn how to Love others as himself. He could only see others as objects to be used for his own pleasure and selfish cravings. He could not repent because he could not perceive the meaning of mercy. The great "gulf" that was fixed between this rich man and the righteous was his own evil nature, which he cultivated throughout a lifetime of choices. God still loved the man and would always do so, but that doesn't matter, because the man cannot receive that Love, not knowing Love on account never having received possession of it as a personal quality. Death is the cutoff, and after this our dispositions are fixed forever, although we remain conscious for eternity.