the standard of righteousness

[RandyPNW]

They are not virtually synonymous in the NT.

"Accept" is passive. . .while to "believe" is to trust, which is not passive.

It's not a minor distinction in the nature of saving faith and in understanding its operation in salvation.

Words mean what they mean in context. In context, to "accept" the Lord is an active thing--not a passive thing. Yes, to "accept" can indeed be a passive thing. But in this context, it is not. To "accept" the Lord is to "believe" in Him.

 

[RandyPNW]

Are you nuts? Claiming we will be perfected in holiness and righteousness and not remain sinners does not go against the content in that only sinners are born on earth!

You didn't say just that, though. You didn't just say we will be perfected in holiness. I believe that too.

But I also believe 1 John 1, and John's claim that we all, even as Christians, have a sin nature. I believe the Apostle and I believe the Bible. John states this not just once, but twice in 1 John 1.

And the fact that we are all guilty of sin, by nature, is proven by the fact Christ came to die for all, including Israel who had been under the Law. The Law was not sufficient to cleanse from sin for all time. And Christ cleanses Christians the same way he cleansed those who had been under the Law, by grace.

 

[RandyPNW]

Do you not see a hint that our enslavement to evil is broken (probably by our re-birth) and our free will returned in Gal 5:13 For you, brothers, were called to freedom; but do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh. Rather, serve one another in love.? This call also cannot be fulfilled without a sinless perfection in the person serving as love cannot be forced but must be chosen by a free will.

I don't see how you can fail to see your own sin nature, your own imperfections? You must live closed off from the world, where you get no feedback, and also hide the voice of your own conscience? Perhaps you're afraid God will reject you if you admit to having any errors?

The truth is, God's burden is light. He is very forgiving. He is very patient and longsuffering, and has compassion on us all. You need to relax and accept the fact God loves you despite yourself.

 

[RandyPNW]

I agree that being set aside for GOD for HIS service by someone or by GOD is a definition of holiness which makes inanimate objects and sinners able to be called holy...

...but the definition of holy used to describe a free will choice to be in accord with GOD's nature and purpose for our creation so as to be righteous and holy is also a real definition and pertinent to this topic as this is the only definition that makes the command to "Be holy for your GOD is holy!" to be sensible.

The command is NOT to get someone to declare you as set apart for HIS service as if you were a knife or a candle, but for you to CHOOSE to be set apart by your free will which is only perfected in the perfection of the person by a total repugnance and avoidance of all hint of any aroma of sin, ie, the decision to become sinlessly perfect, the reason we were given a free will. This decision is fulfilled by our sinless perfection and nothing less.

I do not define our holiness as our sinless perfection. Rather, it is being set on the right path where we pursue God's will regularly, avoiding sins regularly. But sin is indeed within us, so that we are always being tested. It's a tough life, but it's the one we have to go through.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I do walk in the light, and God always gives me access to Him. If you feel that sometimes you don't have access to Him, perhaps you should consider yourself?

The light is God (1 John 1:5). However, walking in the light is loving your brother according to the indirect wording in 1 John 2:9-11. So after we are saved by God’s grace through faith (without the deeds of the Law), in order for the blood of Jesus to continue to cleanse us from all sin, we must love our brother. For he that does not love his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10). Whoever hates his brother is like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15).

This is a most misunderstood passage. John is talking about how we, as newborn Christians, have a nature that cannot pursue sin. Obviously, we can act out of sorts with that nature, since John begins his letter by stating such.

But without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).
The question we need to ask ourselves is our understanding on holy living the same as the Bible teaches? Is our version of holy living in line with the Bible? Are we really sure? Many say they are for holy living but I do not always see it match up with the way the Bible describes it.

What this is saying is that as saints we've chosen to adopt God's love as our way of life. Having this nature, we naturally pursue love. None of this has a thing to do with sinless perfection, since everybody has a Sin Nature, saint or sinner.

Ever read Galatians 5:24, and 2 Corinthians 7:1 lately?

Yes, God's Spirit cannot sin, and our newborn nature cannot pursue sin. But we don't always live in that new nature. As such, we can and do sin, regularly. We just don't live a life of sin.

You basically are saying that…

(a). Christians sin regularly and yet
(b). Christians don’t live a life of sin.​

These two statements sound like they are saying the same thing. To me: Sinning regularly is living a life of sin.

This isn't biblical. We can be both holy and flawed--that's what the Apostle John says. Those who deny their own sin are liars, according to John.

What is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their future sins are paid for by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

John prescribes that we do not think that sin is an illusion, and we are automatically saved, but John is telling us to "sin not" and go to our advocate Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1), and confess our sins so as to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). Most Christians claim that future sin is paid for. However, how can you confess and be forgiven of sin if all your future sin is paid for? It makes no sense.

Now, some Christians might say that John is talking about a break of fellowship by one's sins and not a loss of salvation, but that would not be consistent with Scripture. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life.

And so sin always tempts us and causes us to sin--hopefully in only small ways. We should avoid, at all costs, the big sins. Those are the ones that really hurt everybody.

Right, the big sins actually hurts the person’s own soul in hellfire unless of course they confess and forsake that sin. Jesus warned that looking upon a woman in lust can cause one to be cast bodily into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus says if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). So salvation is conditioned upon our continued obedience to the Lord and His commands after we are saved by His grace. We are not saved by Belief Alone-ism anymore than we are saved by Works Alone-ism. While believers are saved by the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, believers also need to answer the call of the gospel, which is… God has chosen you to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth. This Sanctification of the Spirit is living a holy life by God’s power.

This is why narrow is the way and FEW be there that find it.
Most are not willing to truly walk the straight and narrow and live that holy life as the Bible describes it. So they invent their own version of holiness or holy living that fits their lifestyle or what they prefer. So in this area of their life: They walk by sight and not by faith. For they look to themselves or their neighbor and say it is impossible to overcome certain big sins that the Bible condemns. But what they do not understand is that with God all things are possible.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@RandyPNW

Paul says we have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16).
Did Christ ever think in the way that you suggest in regards to sin and living holy?
No, of course not.

 

[prophecy_uk]

Randy: "But I also believe 1 John 1, and John's claim that we all, even as Christians, have a sin nature. I believe the Apostle and I believe the Bible. John states this not just once, but twice in 1 John 1.

And the fact that we are all guilty of sin, by nature, is proven by the fact Christ came to die for all, including Israel who had been under the Law. The Law was not sufficient to cleanse from sin for all time. And Christ cleanses Christians the same way he cleansed those who had been under the Law, by grace."



Randy: "And the fact that we are all guilty of sin, by nature"


We are not sinners/guilty of sin by nature, ( are your words in the bible?) we as testified against that, are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles. The Gentiles not having themselves sanctified, do not know God by their nature of being sinners, by fornication and in lust..


Galatians 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

1 Thessalonians 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:



This is also taught, that he is not a Jew when circumcision is outward in the flesh, ( in the sinners nature of the Gentiles) but he is a Jew when circumcised is in the heart in the spirit..


Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.




Randy: "1 John 1, and John's claim that we all, even as Christians, have a sin nature. I believe the Apostle and I believe the Bible. John states this not just once, but twice in 1 John 1."



1 John 1, mentions Christ cleansing us from all sin twice also, the first time is to have equal fellowship with one another ( born again of God ) and the second time mentions confessing our sins for the justice of Christ to forgive our sins. If not cleansed of all unrighteousness, by having equal fellowship, ( born again of God) His word is not in us, and we lie if we say we have no sin/have not sinned.


1 John 2:11-14, continues, how the ones who hate their brother are in darkness, ( and knows not where he is going/ they say they have no sin to hate their brother) Then John writes to you little children, because it is their sins that are forgiven for the names sake of Christ, and the young men overcome the wicked one ( as Christ overcame condemning sin in the flesh for us/ destroying the works of the devil )

John continues, writing to the young men, who are strong, TO OVERCOME THE WICKED ONE ( the wicked one is the flesh/sin nature) and the WORD OF GOD ABIDES IN THEM..


1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.


1 John 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.




The WORD WAS GOD, the darkness comprehended it not ( man sinner by nature)

As many as were given to receive Him, ( cannot be the darkness or any natural man receiving, as the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God) God gave them POWER to BECOME THE SONS OF GOD, not born of flesh ( sin nature of man) but of God, and the WORD was made flesh ( not sin nature) and dwelt among us, so we believe when we beheld His glory, full of grace and truth to confess with and not lies..



John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

'


Then, they abide in Christ to bear fruit, His words abide in us, they are born of incorruptible seed by THE WORD OF GOD, mens words and nature abide in death, Gods word and nature lives for ever..



John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.





Randy: "I don't see how you can fail to see your own sin nature, your own imperfections? You must live closed off from the world, where you get no feedback, and also hide the voice of your own conscience? "


Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.




Randy: "Perhaps you're afraid God will reject you if you admit to having any errors?"



2 Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

 

[prophecy_uk]

BibleHighlighter: "What is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense)."


No, 1 John 2, does not go back to 1 John 1, but without your interpretation, Jesus tells us, that any man that turns back is not fit the for Kingdom of Heaven, as Paul confirms, one thing we do is not look behind, they are FORGOTTEN, we press forward towards the Mark of Jesus Christ, and as many as be perfect are thus minded, and if anyone is of a different mind, we know what mind they are of, as all is revealed to us by God now..


Luke 9:61 And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.
62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

 

[Brightfame52]

Romans 5:18-19 are not the only verses treating righteousness/justification.
Romans 4:5, 3:21, 28 do also, and we must consider all Scripture in understanding any Scripture.

They all agree, Rom 4:5 is speaking about having been Justified while being ungodly, thats prior to Faith. Justification is by the Blood of Christ Rom 5:9, and God given Faith sees that.

 

[DaDaBrothers]

I believe fruit also saves, but it is AFTER we are saved by God’s grace.

If the fruit saves AFTER, you weren't saved to begin with, you can only be saved if you weren't. No such thing as saving a saved person. No one is saved two times.

It is not the fruit bearing that saves

Make up your mind first you "believe" the fruit saves, now it doesn't? If the fruit doesn't save, we are not talking about the same parable. On my bible only the good ground was saved, because they bare fruit "some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold." The others were never saved because they bare no fruit.

So then you were not saved until you did good works?
At which works did you do that brought you salvation?
If you fail to do a work on some day, are you condemned?

Im not gonna tell you when you are saved, or at which work you were saved.
Im telling you it does have to do with the works, you must bare as much fruit as you can for God, at least thirtyfold, and on the last day, He will decide, based on your works.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

So then how was the thief on the cross saved?

Luke 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Both thieves "believe" Jesus the difference is one of them mocked Him, and the other defended Him. So the true faith was granted to the benevolent thief, and he rebuked the other thief, he spoke, this is a fruit from his true faith, he is witnessing, and he ministered to the other thief.
Next he recognized he was justly receiving the reward for his sins, death. He confessed. But Jesus had done nothing wrong, Jesus was blameless. And finally he plead for mercy, to be remembered.
All of this works are evident of true living faith. And is only after this that Jesus tells him he will be saved.

Do you believe a person cannot be saved on their death bed when they only have seconds to live?

No, I believe it can, because God can do all things "[...]will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."
But I wouldn't bank on that, I would not tell anyone they can wait untill they are in a death bed to get right with God.

What do you make of Luke 18:9-14? How does that fit in your view of sin and salvation?

This parable goes to show only the mercy of God can save us.
The difference between the two is: the pharisee didn't ask for forgiveness, the publican did. The publican fears the Lord, the pharisee doesn't. The publican confesses, the pharisee doesn't. The pharisee exalts himself above his brother and breaks the 2nd commandment, the publican is humble, and doesn't.
So before the publican can be justified, he must first realize only God can justify him, and therefore trust only God, be humble, fear the Lord, keep the commandments, confess his sins, and ask for mercy.
As you can see much work needs to be done in a persons life before she is jutified by God.
You don't convince me that because you read 1 Corinthians 15 you are a justified, humble, God fearing, law abiding, saved person who has confessed their sins and asked for mercy.. Because you haven't, you have only received the seed, you haven't bare fruit. Like the pharisee thanked God thinking he was justified when he wasn't, so are you thanking God for the seed, thinking you are "initially justified" when you are not.

So we need to be saved by God’s grace first.

But you want to be "initially saved" before you do any of the works.. You are saying the publican was "initially justified" before he even prayed for mercy. Or that all the soils where the seed landed were "initially saved", before they even grew and bare fruit..
You are going against Scripture and the parables of Jesus that we have looked at.
It's like someone picked up salvation and turned it upside down.
Isaiah 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

So "Initial salvation" is not salvation at all, just remove the word "salvation", because they are not saved. Don't deceive people, It's like a 10 steps stairway, you put your foot on the 1st step and say I have "initially climbed" this stairway.. You haven't, im sorry man.

It ain't over untill it's over, and it ain't over yet..
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

Some have suggested that 1 John 2:1 is not connected to 1 John 1:9.

1 John 2:1
“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:”

1 John 1:9
“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness”

First, while I do favor chapter and verse numbers in the Bible in that they prove God’s Word is divine in origin, there are technically no chapter breaks in the original manuscripts. So 1 John 2:1 is the immediate context of 1 John 1:9. 1 John 2:1 is literally one verse away from 1 John 1:9 (i.e. 1 John 1:10). We also learn that the Lord is able to forgive others their sin like in the Parable of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15:11-32. For the son was said to be “dead” while he was living it up with prostitutes, but he was said to be “alive AGAIN” when he came back home to his father seeking forgiveness with him (See: Luke 15:24, and Luke 15:32).

Second, what some here are suggesting is that there is no grace to help us to walk uprightly, and to overcome sin. According to them: It’s one and your out for good and one cannot even confess their sins to be restored back to the Lord Jesus. I don’t see any group of believers holding to this odd view. In fact, I do not believe these kind of people are being honest with themselves in that they have never sinned since becoming a Christian (Seeing that one sin will put them out of the Kingdom for good). For what if one accidentally looks at a woman in lust? Are they forever out of God’s kingdom and have no chance of restoration? I just do not see that in the Bible. The Corinthians who worked the sins of strife and envy (1 Corinthians 3:3) are said to have later repented of their sins and they were restored in 2 Corinthians 12.

For Paul says:

“For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults: And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.” (2 Corinthians 12:20-21).

Hebrews 4:16 says: “Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.”

We also read in James 5:19-20.

“Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.” (James 5:19-20).

So this is saying that if any us brethren does err from the truth and another believer converts him back to the faith, we should know that we have helped convert this sinner from their error of their sinful ways and help to save a soul from spiritual death. So there is hope if a believer sins once since after accepting Jesus as their Savior.

Some have suggested Luke 9:62 is suggesting that if you sin once your forever out of God’s Kingdom.

Here is the verse:

“And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.” (Luke 9:62).

What this verse is referring to is preaching and or spreading the good news of the gospel message. If we turn back in preaching the gospel or spreading it, we are not fit for the Kingdom of God. So while we can be condemned for no longer preaching the gospel anymore, that does not mean we are forever condemned and there is no grace or forgiveness with we turn back to the Lord Jesus and pray to Him and seek forgiveness so as to get back on the right path. Nowhere is this sin said to be a sin that forever condemns. That kind of thinking is only imposed upon this text where it does not exist.

 

[Doug Brents]

Rom 5:18 says nothing about Faith. It was solely by the righteousness of one the all obtained Justification of life. Had nothing to with their Faith. Same thing in Rom 5:19, it was solely by the obedience of ONE the many shall be made righteous. Has nothing to do with their faith !

Those passages mean that solely by the effort of ONE was the road paved. Other passages tell us that it is then left to us to walk that path. If there was no path, then there would be no hope. But if we refuse to walk the path, then we still have no hope. Our only hope is in obediently walking the path paved by Christ.

 

[RandyPNW]

You basically are saying that…

(a). Christians sin regularly and yet
(b). Christians don’t live a life of sin.​

These two statements sound like they are saying the same thing. To me: Sinning regularly is living a life of sin.

The reason you don't understand my point, and see these things as a contradiction, is because you deny sin in yourself. You have a Sin Nature in yourself, and it is evident *every day.* The great saints of old were the most humble of saints, and they fully recognized their incapacities and their continuous need for God's loving grace.

To deny the need for grace is arrogance. Those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

What is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

This is incredibly convoluted!
1 John 1.8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

This is a word to Christians--not about their past as non-Christians, but about their present experience as Christians! We know that because the letter is addressed to Christians, focusing upon the validity of their current Christian faith.

Those who claim that things they've done *as Christians* in the past are not sin are liars. Those who claim they don't have a Sin Nature presently are also liars. So, these Christians who deny sin are very much like unbelievers who also deny sin.

 

[RandyPNW]

Please use the "Reply" selection and use the format QUOTE="____, post: 76203550, member: 70339" within brackets, then the quotation, followed by the /QUOTE within brackets.

1) QUOTE="____, post: 76203550, member: 70339"
2) quotation
3) /QUOTE

Again, #1 and #3 must have brackets around them ([...]).

Otherwise, it's difficult to tell when you're quoting me and when you're not.

We are not sinners/guilty of sin by nature..

The Apostle John in 1 John 1 verifies that Christians have a sin nature. Everything the NT authors write assume that Christians have a Sin Nature, since they are constantly exhorted to essentially "grow up." They are to fight spiritual warfare, and to resist temptation. They are to put on Christ, and to avoid our carnal impulses.

1 John 1, mentions Christ cleansing us from all sin twice also, the first time is to have equal fellowship with one another ( born again of God ) and the second time mentions confessing our sins for the justice of Christ to forgive our sins. If not cleansed of all unrighteousness, by having equal fellowship, ( born again of God) His word is not in us, and we lie if we say we have no sin/have not sinned.

John didn't just state the purpose of our being cleansed of sin--he was also saying that we must confess our sin, indicating we have a Sin Nature and the capacity to sin.

John's purpose wasn't to justify sinning, but rather, to make us aware of our constant temptation to sin and the need to expose it when it is there. To confess sin we first have to acknowledge that it is in us. And then, when it manifests itself by our giving in to it, we must recognize it as such, and repent of it. This keeps us on the narrow road.

 

[Clare73]

Words mean what they mean in context. In context, to "accept" the Lord is an active thing--not a passive thing. Yes, to "accept" can indeed be a passive thing. But in this context, it is not. To "accept" the Lord is to "believe" in Him.

Where in Scripture may I find "accept" in this context?

 

[Clare73]

Randy: "But I also believe 1 John 1, and John's claim that we all, even as Christians, have a sin nature. I believe the Apostle and I believe the Bible. John states this not just once, but twice in 1 John 1.

And the fact that we are all guilty of sin, by nature, is proven by the fact Christ came to die for all, including Israel who had been under the Law. The Law was not sufficient to cleanse from sin for all time. And Christ cleanses Christians the same way he cleansed those who had been under the Law, by grace."
Randy: "And the fact that we are all guilty of sin, by nature"

We are not sinners/guilty of sin by nature, ( are your words in the bible?)

We "are by nature objects of God's wrath" (Ephesians 2:3), which nature we are born with.
Objects of wrath is not because our nature is righteous, but sinful.

we as testified against that, are Jews by nature,

Precisely. . .the Jew is born with his nature (Galatians 2:15)--Jewish genes,
just as all mankind is born with its nature--sin.

and not sinners of the Gentiles. The Gentiles not having themselves sanctified, do not know God by their nature of being sinners, by fornication and in lust..


Galatians 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

1 Thessalonians 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:



This is also taught, that he is not a Jew when circumcision is outward in the flesh, ( in the sinners nature of the Gentiles) but he is a Jew when circumcised is in the heart in the spirit..


Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.




Randy: "1 John 1, and John's claim that we all, even as Christians, have a sin nature. I believe the Apostle and I believe the Bible. John states this not just once, but twice in 1 John 1."



1 John 1, mentions Christ cleansing us from all sin twice also, the first time is to have equal fellowship with one another ( born again of God ) and the second time mentions confessing our sins for the justice of Christ to forgive our sins. If not cleansed of all unrighteousness, by having equal fellowship, ( born again of God) His word is not in us, and we lie if we say we have no sin/have not sinned.


1 John 2:11-14, continues, how the ones who hate their brother are in darkness, ( and knows not where he is going/ they say they have no sin to hate their brother) Then John writes to you little children, because it is their sins that are forgiven for the names sake of Christ, and the young men overcome the wicked one ( as Christ overcame condemning sin in the flesh for us/ destroying the works of the devil )

John continues, writing to the young men, who are strong, TO OVERCOME THE WICKED ONE ( the wicked one is the flesh/sin nature) and the WORD OF GOD ABIDES IN THEM..


1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.


1 John 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.




The WORD WAS GOD, the darkness comprehended it not ( man sinner by nature)

As many as were given to receive Him, ( cannot be the darkness or any natural man receiving, as the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God) God gave them POWER to BECOME THE SONS OF GOD, not born of flesh ( sin nature of man) but of God, and the WORD was made flesh ( not sin nature) and dwelt among us, so we believe when we beheld His glory, full of grace and truth to confess with and not lies..



John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

'


Then, they abide in Christ to bear fruit, His words abide in us, they are born of incorruptible seed by THE WORD OF GOD, mens words and nature abide in death, Gods word and nature lives for ever..



John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.





Randy: "I don't see how you can fail to see your own sin nature, your own imperfections? You must live closed off from the world, where you get no feedback, and also hide the voice of your own conscience? "


Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.




Randy: "Perhaps you're afraid God will reject you if you admit to having any errors?"



2 Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

 

[Clare73]

They all agree, Rom 4:5 is speaking about having been Justified while being ungodly, thats prior to Faith.

Actually, that is by/through faith (Romans 4:5, Romans 3:22, Romans 3:28).

The faith precedes the justification, just as it does the salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Justification is by the Blood of Christ Rom 5:9, and God given Faith sees that.

Justification (declaration of "not guilty") is by his blood and through faith, wherein the righteousness of Jesus Christ is accounted/reckoned/credited/imputed (Gr: logizomai) to the believer (Romans 4:23, Romans 5:19).

Does Scripture present faith as the result of salvation and justification, or as the means of salvation and justification?

through faith (without its works) - Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 3:22; Philippians 3:9
by faith (apart from its works) - Romans 1:17, Romans 3:28, Romans 4:5, Romans 4:11, Romans 5:1-2, Romans 9:30, Romans 10:6; Philippians 3:9

Faith is the means, not the end/goal/result.

 

[Brightfame52]

Those passages mean that solely by the effort of ONE was the road paved. Other passages tell us that it is then left to us to walk that path. If there was no path, then there would be no hope. But if we refuse to walk the path, then we still have no hope. Our only hope is in obediently walking the path paved by Christ.

Lol, the road was paved ? Thats not truth friend !

 

[Brightfame52]

Actually, that is by/through faith (Romans 4:5, Romans 3:22, Romans 3:28).

The faith precedes the justification, just as it does the salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9).
Justification (declaration of "not guilty") is by his blood and through faith, wherein the righteousness of Jesus Christ is accounted/reckoned/credited/imputed (Gr: logizomai) to the believer (Romans 4:23, Romans 5:19).

Does Scripture present faith as the result of salvation and justification, or as the means of salvation and justification?

through faith (without its works) - Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 3:22; Philippians 3:9
by faith (apart from its works) - Romans 1:17, Romans 3:28, Romans 4:5, Romans 4:11, Romans 5:1-2, Romans 9:30, Romans 10:6; Philippians 3:9

Faith is the means, not the end/goal/result.

Faith has nothing to do with Rom 5:18-19 or Rom 5:9. Im afraid you taking credit away from the blood of Christ, the obedience of Christ. Faith is a Gift of God to know about Justification spiritually in the mind and heart of the regenerate, but Christs death is the meritorious cause of the Justification of Gods elect.

 

[DaDaBrothers]

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we become sinless when we walk in the light.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Let's say I have 9999 sin, but I walk in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sin. So 9999 sin minus "all sin" equals 0 sin. 0 sin to me is sinless, without sin.

We can be both holy and flawed

Nope."No man can serve two masters".
James 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Yes, God's Spirit cannot sin, and our newborn nature cannot pursue sin. But we don't always live in that new nature. As such, we can and do sin, regularly. We just don't live a life of sin.

So, you don't always live in that new nature, you also live in the flesh and sin regularly, you think you can jump back and forth between the two masters ? You are divided, somehow it's not a life of sin, but neither is a life without sin. It's unstable, as James said. You have to decide which side of the fence your on. You are not on both, that's for sure..
Either you are a servant of righteousnes alive to God, walk in the Light after the Spirit, or you a slave to sin dead in tresspasses, carnally minded.

You have to let go of the flesh, like in death, you must leave the flesh behind, let go of the "sinfull nature". The blood of Jesus Christ will cleanseth you from ALL sin, anything and everything sinfull you might have, no exceptions.
Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
You can be delivered from your "sinfull nature". Jesus won, the devil is destroyed.
Hebrews 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.