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The Spread of Species Across the Globe

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
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Part of understanding the theory of evolution...requires an understanding of geology, which by default, results in an understanding of the geological evidence (or lack thereof) for a global flood.

If you havent "explored the subject matter much", then you cant rightfully propose a global flood. And if you cant rightfully propose a global flood, then the statement "Following the flood the originally created kinds being represented would have had pristine genomes. ", just isn't justified.
Geology has very little to do with what we are talking about. We should be talking about how life actually adapts but that never gets into the conversation. It's not mutations, that much is obvious if you bother to learn something about the life sciences. The post flood genomes would have had enormous gene pools, after the founder effect and bottlenecks not so much. Then the accumulation of mutations over time restrict the availability of traits in populations afterward.
 
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The Barbarian

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Barbarian, regarding the notion of "pristine genomes":
Not possible. Their genomes would have, like every other genome, all sorts of mutations, gene duplications, and so on. There's nothing magical here. Every organism is born with mutations that neither parent had.

Ugh says the caveman, you are projecting modern observation with speculation about past periods. Mutations have almost nothing to do with adaptive evolution, which is probably the worst legacy of Darwinism.

Sorry, that's wrong, too. When Hall's bacteria evolved a new, irreducibly complex enzyme system, it happened via a series of observed mutations in the bacterial culture.

So it's observably true.

Barbarian continues:
With 3 billion base pairs, that would be, um... three million differences. Lots of mutations. However, it is true that humans went through a bottleneck that greatly reduced variation, back before anatomically modern humans, Neandertals, and Denisovans diverged from a common ancestor.

Not mutations, differences with regard to comparative genomics.

That's a two-dollar word for "mutations."

Barbarian adds:
Evolution also occurs in large populations, where there is no founder effect or bottlenecks.

Ugh says the caveman, baloney.

One word: horses. Billions of them, and we can show a whole bush of different kinds of horses diverging over time.

Barbarian observes:
Doesn't seem have happened to humans. Our population was fairly small for a rather long time. And the key change in H. sapiens (larger brain, smaller face, paedomorphic trend) goes back before H. sapiens existed.

No, it goes back about 2 mya and it had to be permanently fixed.

No, that's wrong too. For example, later Australopithecines had larger brains. And early forms of Homo had smaller brains than those coming later. It's been a gradual process over a rather long time:

fossil_hominin_cranial_capacity_sm.png


Barbarbarian concludes:
Tends to. It's not a lock, though.
Ecclesiastes 9:11 I turned me to another thing, and I saw that under the sun, the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the learned, nor favour to the skilful: but time and chance in all. Tends to eliminate the unfit.

That's not Darwinism.

It's what Darwin wrote in his book. I think that qualifies it as Darwinism. "Survival of the fittest" was Spencer's formulation. Darwin thought it was a good summary, but it is not much used by Darwinists today, because it does not completely describe what natural selection does.

The theory of evolution by natural selection was proposed by Charles Darwin and Alfred Russel Wallace in 1858. They argued that species with useful adaptations to the environment are more likely to survive and produce progeny than are those with less useful adaptations, thereby increasing the frequency with which useful adaptations occur over the generations.
Selection | biology

“Survival of the fittest” means that those who are best adapted to their environment thrive and tend to be favored by evolution due to “natural selection”.
Survival of the Fittest, Only the Strong Survive - Fact or Myth?

Natural selection is, as Darwin and Wallace recognized, the tendency of organisms that are well suited to their environments to survive and reproduce at higher rates than those that are ill-suited. It doesn’t always work since there is a lot of chance, and organisms do not always show enough genetic variability to adapt to their environment, especially if it is changing rapidly. ‘Survival of the fittest’ captures some of the variability in survival and reproduction, and it is usually fuzzily meant to mean the same thing as natural selection.
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-survival-of-the-fittest-and-natural-selection
 
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Job 33:6

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Geology has very little to do with what we are talking about. We should be talking about how life actually adapts but that never gets into the conversation. It's not mutations, that much is obvious if you bother to learn something about the life sciences. The post flood genomes would have had enormous gene pools, after the founder effect and bottlenecks not so much. Then the accumulation of mutations over time restrict the availability of traits in populations afterward.

You are suggesting the occurance of a global flood, yet you think geology has little to do with the topic?

I suspect you just dont want to talk about physical evidence for a global flood...because there is none.
 
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The Barbarian

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The post flood genomes would have had enormous gene pools

Two to seven animals for each population. That means there could be at most seven alleles for each gene locus. Today, there are, in most animals, dozens to hundreds of alleles for every gene, most of them useful ones. All the rest would have come from mutation.

This is why bottlenecks, where the number of organisms becomes very small, usually result in extinction. The genetic variation is so small that the population is unlikely to survive changes in the environment.
 
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mindlight

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Somebody's post on another www forum got me to thinking about this again:

Now if Noah's Ark came to rest in the mountains of Ararat, keep in mind that the place is near the center of the planet's land mass. It would have been a GREAT place from which to re-populate the earth with animals. God was wise. My point, however, is that as the animals left the Ark, left the area, and spread over the Earth, would not these "created kinds" develop into many varied species? I conjecture that the animals that stayed close to the Ark would have any exotic features bred back out - they would end up being fairly typical species of each kind.

On the other hand, as animals reached the limits of expansion, in isolated pockets, exotic features could flourish, there being fewer "average" members of their species to breed the features out. Consider exotic flightless geese in Hawaii, or Kiwi in New Zealand, or egg-laying mammals in Australia. I think I could chart exoticism versus distance from Ark and get a fairly good line. Does this make sense to you?

Microevolution of different species within a kind does seem to occur. Creationists believe the specially selected animals on the ark were an especially rich pool of genes from which all subsequent variations could be traced.

The earth would have been pretty empty early on after the flood. So variations could flourish and become established at whatever distance. They could have lived of the debris of the old world as well as new growth. Even sailed rafts of tree trunks from ancient forests to distant places.

Not all kinds of creatures got to all parts of the post flood world. It is a matter of discussion whether horses ( equs genus) existed in the post flood American continent for instance until the Spanish brought them over.

Some animals ended up in only one main concentration e.g kangaroos in Australia and dodos on their island.

The process was almost definitely supernaturally guided.
 
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sfs

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Microevolution of different species within a kind does seem to occur. Creationists believe the specially selected animals on the ark were an especially rich pool of genes from which all subsequent variations could be traced.
A few thousand (or even hundred thousand) years ago? Not possible. You cannot get the distribution of genetic variation that's observed today from a single breeding pair a hundred thousand years ago, regardless of what they had in their genomes.
 
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mindlight

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A few thousand (or even hundred thousand) years ago? Not possible. You cannot get the distribution of genetic variation that's observed today from a single breeding pair a hundred thousand years ago, regardless of what they had in their genomes.

Actually that is not true and we have numerous examples of hyperadaptivity (what you might call microevolution or speciation) within a kind.

Rapid speciation in a newly opened postglacial marine environment, the Baltic Sea

Evidence for Rapid Speciation Following a Founder Event in the Laboratory on JSTOR

Speciation - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science
 
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tkolter

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Well the Biblical account isn't complicated Noah made the Ark, God brought the animals to him to go inside the Ark and then afterwards the animals spread out. Now its not hard to imagine how the animals came God could have simply by sheer divine power created genetically pure pairs to bring, no food and water was noted as on the Ark so God likely provided for this again simple for our God and after He likely had to replant the world and provide to move the animals where He wished. Now other options Angels could have easily been able to handle all these things under the command of God to do so, an Angel could easily move even an elephant pair to the Ark from Africa and such. I would note since God ordered the species to be fruitful and multiply He could have made these species longer fertile and more fertile and healthy for several generations as needed.

All things of God can defy the natural laws if He so wishes it.
 
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The Barbarian

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All things of God can defy the natural laws if He so wishes it.

True. But if you have to pop in all sorts of non-scriptural miracles to get your beliefs to work, isn't that an important thing to consider?
 
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