The slave woman Hagar and the promise

ralliann · Jan 20, 2022

Clare73 said:
Amen to that.
In context, the analogy is of law vs. faith (Galatians 4:24) in inheriting the promise.

The analogy of Hagar and Sarah is about the inheritance (promise)--by law or by faith, the law being set aside (Hebrews 7:18; Galatians 4:29) and the inheritance only by faith (Galatians 4:30-31).

But there is the connecting of the covenant of circumcision with the covenant at Sinai in this conversation. The covenant at Sinai/Horeb is distinct from the covenant of circumcision. Which covenant Jews keep today. Jews make them all part and parcell of each other. I just think we speak in like ways about that. I don't think we should.

Clare73 · Jan 20, 2022

ralliann said:
But there is the connecting of the covenant of circumcision with the covenant at Sinai in this conversation. The covenant at Sinai/Horeb is distinct from the covenant of circumcision. Which covenant Jews keep today. Jews make them all part and parcell of each other. I just think we speak in like ways about that. I don't think we should.

Actually, circumcision was also a matter of law (Leviticus 12:3).

So that connection is law keeping, which is being contrasted to faith alone in receiving the promised inheritance.

ralliann · Jan 20, 2022

Clare73 said:
Actually, circumcision was also a matter of law (Leviticus 12:3).

Yes, it was retained under the law. But it is a covenant prior to the law which was 400 years after.
Joh 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the 12 patriarchs were all reckoned righteous apart from the law. Furthermore the circumcision was a sign and a seal of the righteousness he had while yet uncircumcised. The promises made to Abraham and the patriarchs were apart from the law at Sinai.

Ro 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Clare73 said:
So that connection is law keeping, which is being contrasted to faith alone in receiving the promised inheritance.

The connection is the 4th generation of his seed which were slaves in Egypt. The covenant made in Genesis 15. No inheritance given Abraham in that covenant.
Acts 7:4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
Abraham will die....the fourth Generation of his seed are the seed here.
Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

The royal covenant of Gen 17 is when God gives the land to Abraham personally....And it is established with an oath in the offering of Isaac in Genesis 22.

Clare73 · Jan 20, 2022

ralliann said:
Yes, it was retained under the law. But it is a covenant prior to the law which was 400 years after.
Joh 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the 12 patriarchs were all reckoned righteous apart from the law. Furthermore the circumcision was a sign and a seal of the righteousness he had while yet uncircumcised. The promises made to Abraham and the patriarchs were apart from the law at Sinai.

Ro 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

The connection is the 4th generation of his seed which were slaves in Egypt. The covenant made in Genesis 15. No inheritance given Abraham in that covenant.
Acts 7:4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
Abraham will die....the fourth Generation of his seed are the seed here.
Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

The royal covenant of Gen 17 is when God gives the land to Abraham personally....And it is established with an oath in the offering of Isaac in Genesis 22.

He also gave it to Isaac and Jacob personally (Genesis 26:3, 28:4, Genesis 35:12).

Is there any difference between the certainty of a covenant and the certainty of an oath, both by God?

Why do you call the covenant of Genesis 17 "royal"?

ralliann · Jan 20, 2022

Clare73 said:
He also gave it to Isaac and Jacob personally (Genesis 26:3, 28:4, Genesis 35:12).

Yes he did. As Hebrews says, they were co-heirs of the same promise. All apart from the law of Moses.

Clare73 said:
Is there any difference between the certainty of a covenant and the certainty of an oath, both by God?

Once the oath is sworn, nothing can be added to it, and nothing can be taken away from it, and it is sure. Therefore, the promises made to Abraham in covenant apart from the law, does not have the law 400 years later added to it.
What law is established?
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Clare73 said:
Why do you call the covenant of Genesis 17 "royal"?

It is indeed the covenant which promises kings...
Because it is the promise of "kings" to Abraham as well as Sarah.
Ge 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Ge 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. {she … : Heb. she shall become nations }
Moses did not give a king, God was their king.
Anointed ones are Prophets, kings, and priests.
Le 4:3 If the priest that is anointed <04899> do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.
Le 4:5 And the priest that is anointed <04899> shall take of the bullock’s blood, and bring it to the tabernacle of the congregation:
Le 4:16 And the priest that is anointed <04899> shall bring of the bullock’s blood to the tabernacle of the congregation:
Le 6:22 And the priest of his sons that is anointed <04899> in his stead shall offer it: it is a statute for ever unto the LORD; it shall be wholly burnt.
04899 משׁיח mashiyach maw-shee’-akh

from 04886, Greek 3323 Μεσσιας; n m; [BDB-603b] {See TWOT on 1255 @@ "1255c"}

AV-anointed 37, Messiah 2; 39

1) anointed, anointed one
1a) of the Messiah, Messianic prince
1b) of the king of Israel
1c) of the high priest of Israel
1d) of Cyrus
1e) of the patriarchs as anointed kings

Clare73 · Jan 20, 2022

ralliann said:
Yes he did. As Hebrews says, they were co-heirs of the same promise. All apart from the law of Moses.

Once the oath is sworn, nothing can be added to it, and nothing can be taken away from it, and it is sure. Therefore, the promises made to Abraham in covenant apart from the law, does not have the law 400 years later added to it.

"The NT Scriptures (which) conclude the truth of all Scripture" states that the law was added (Galatians 3:19; Romans 5:20) to reveal sin (Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7) and to lead us to Christ (Galatians 3:24), not as any condition of the promises made to Abraham (Galatians 3:17).

What law is established?
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

That is a misunderstanding of Genesis 26:5, for "the NT Scriptures, which conclude the truth of all Scripture" state there was no law after the law of Eden until the Mosaic law (Romans 5:13-14).

So the evidence suggests to me that, Genesis having been written by Moses years after the law was given, the language Moses used in Genesis, which strictly applied only to the Sinai covenant, was to emphasize to Israel, who was under that covenant, that their father Abraham had been obedient to God's will in his time, and that they must follow his example if they were to receive the covenant promises in their time.

Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by
the law of faith.

In context, Romans 3:27 is referring to justification by faith apart from faith's works.

It is indeed the covenant which promises kings...
Because it is the promise of "kings" to Abraham as well as Sarah.
Ge 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Ge 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. {she … : Heb. she shall become nations }
Moses did not give a king, God was their king.

Thanks.

I did some homework. . .and what I found was that ancient royal covenants often began with

(1) self-identification of the king (Genesis 15:7: "I am the LORD"), as also at Sinai (Exodus 20:2), and

(2) a brief historical prologue (Genesis 15:7: "who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to take possession of it."), as also at Sinai ("who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery."

It seems the nomenclature is about the form of covenants, and the form of Genesis 15:7 was the that of a royal covenant.

Clare73 · Jan 20, 2022

atpollard · Jan 20, 2022

ralliann said:
I am not sure of what you are saying here? When you say old covenant, do you mean the Sinai/Horeb covenant?

When I say “old covenant” I mean the pre-incarnation/resurrection covenant where animals die to delay judgement rather than the “new covenant” where God the Son sheds His own blood to forever wash away the guilt and make us more than merely “forgiven”, He makes US sons of God in Christ. It is not worth splitting hairs over the Adamic Covenant vs the Noahic Covenant vs the Abrahamic Covenant vs the Mosaic Covenant. None were like the New Covenant in the Blood of Christ. All were based on animals and a future promise to be realized.

ralliann · Jan 20, 2022

Clare73 said:
"The NT Scriptures (which) conclude the truth of all Scripture" states that the law was added (Galatians 3:19; Romans 5:20) to reveal sin (Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7) and to lead us to Christ (Galatians 3:24), not as any condition of the promises made to Abraham (Galatians 3:17).

That is a misunderstanding of Genesis 26:5, for "the NT Scriptures, which conclude the truth of all Scripture" state there was no law after the law of Eden until the Mosaic law (Romans 5:13-14).

So the evidence suggests to me that, Genesis having been written by Moses years after the law was given, the language Moses used in Genesis, which strictly applied only to the Sinai covenant, was to emphasize to Israel, who was under that covenant, that their father Abraham had been obedient to God's will in his time, and that they must follow his example if they were to receive the covenant promises in their time.

In context, Romans 3:27 is referring to justification by faith apart from faith's works.
Thanks.

I did some homework. . .and what I found was that ancient royal covenants often began with

(1) self-identification of the king (Genesis 15:7: "I am the LORD"), as also at Sinai (Exodus 20:2), and

(2) a brief historical prologue (Genesis 15:7: "who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to take possession of it."), as also at Sinai ("who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery."

It seems the nomenclature is about the form of covenants, and the form of Genesis 15:7 was the that of a royal covenant.

I think you are not taking into account the two covenants made with Abraham. Imo, Gal is clear that the royal covenant of the one seed (not the many) made in Christ cannot be added to, as it was previously established with an oath. The law was by the covenant made in Genesis 15, law added. One, of princes Genesis 15, the other of kings, Genesis 17.
Priesthoods, plural.....
Genesis 15
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
The Levitical priesthood was without an oath.
21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec

Genesis 15 Has Abraham dieing. He died in Adam....The covenant made in Genesis 17 has him looking to a kingdom.
Therefore Abraham had his faith tried in the resurrection from the dead with Isaac. Genesis 22. His faith being made complete, God sware an oath by himself.
Heb 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
As for the law of faith being from the beginning...
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

ralliann · Jan 20, 2022

atpollard said:
When I say “old covenant” I mean the pre-incarnation/resurrection covenant where animals die to delay judgement rather than the “new covenant” where God the Son sheds His own blood to forever wash away the guilt and make us more than merely “forgiven”, He makes US sons of God in Christ. It is not worth splitting hairs over the Adamic Covenant vs the Noahic Covenant vs the Abrahamic Covenant vs the Mosaic Covenant. None were like the New Covenant in the Blood of Christ. All were based on animals and a future promise to be realized.

I don't think discerning between the covenant made in the one seed (Christ) with Abraham, and the covenant made with the seed of many is splitting hairs. I think not distinguishing them is what is helping persuade people today to keep the law of Moses (actually it is Rabbinic traditions they keep) as in Messianic Judaism. I also think it darkens our discussion with Jews, and modern day events with Israel becoming a nation again. It is not because they keep Rabbinic traditions as law keeping. That is not hair splitting stuff IMO.

Clare73 · Jan 21, 2022

Clare73 · Jan 21, 2022

ralliann said:
I think you are not taking into account the two covenants made with Abraham.

However, do not "the NT Scriptures (which) conclude the truth of all Scripture" state that the law was added (Galatians 3:19; Romans 5:20) to the Abrahamic covenant (Galatians 3:17)?

They were not added to the unconditional land covenant, they were added to the conditional covenant (Galatians 3:17) to be their God (Genesis 17:7), conditioned on total consecration, the sign of which was circumcision (Genesis 17:11).

The Mosiac laws were added to the conditional covenant to reveal sin (Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7) and to lead to Christ (Galatians 4:24). And now that faith in Christ has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law (Galatians 4:25) which was added to the conditional Abrahamic covenant to be their God.

Imo, Gal is clear that the royal covenant of the one seed (not the many) made in Christ cannot be added to, as it was previously established with an oath. The law was by the covenant made in Genesis 15, law added. One, of princes Genesis 15, the other of kings, Genesis 17.
Priesthoods, plural.....
Genesis 15
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
The Levitical priesthood was without an oath.
21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec

Genesis 15 Has Abraham dieing. He died in Adam....The covenant made in Genesis 17 has him looking to a kingdom.
Therefore Abraham had his faith tried in the resurrection from the dead with Isaac. Genesis 22. His faith being made complete, God sware an oath by himself.
Heb 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
As for the law of faith being from the beginning...
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Clare73 · Jan 21, 2022

atpollard said:
When I say “old covenant” I mean the pre-incarnation/resurrection covenant where animals die to delay judgement rather than the “new covenant” where God the Son sheds His own blood to forever wash away the guilt and make us more than merely “forgiven”, He makes US sons of God in Christ. It is not worth splitting hairs over the Adamic Covenant vs the Noahic Covenant vs the Abrahamic Covenant vs the Mosaic Covenant. None were like the New Covenant in the Blood of Christ. All were based on animals and a future promise to be realized.

. . .

ralliann · Jan 21, 2022

Clare73 said:
However, do not "the NT Scriptures (which) conclude the truth of all Scripture" state that the law was added (Galatians 3:19; Romans 5:20) to the Abrahamic covenant (Galatians 3:17)?

Which Abrahamic covenant? No, I do not think the new covenant teaches that the Mosaic law was added to the royal covenant of kings.

Clare73 said:
They were not added to the unconditional land covenant, they were added to the conditional covenant (Galatians 3:17) to be their God (Genesis 17:7), conditioned on total consecration, the sign of which was circumcision (Genesis 17:11).

The sign of the Sinai covenant is the Sabbath.
And I do not know what you you are basing an "unconditional" land covenant on?
Which covenant was this? I believe it is Genesis 17...
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Clare73 said:
The Mosiac laws were added to the conditional covenant to reveal sin (Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7) and to lead to Christ (Galatians 4:24). And now that faith in Christ has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law (Galatians 4:25) which was added to the conditional Abrahamic covenant.

When were the Gentiles under the Sinai covenant? I am sorry but your not being clear to me.
The promise of Genesis 15 Concerns the fourth Generation of his seed, yes?

Clare73 · Jan 21, 2022

ralliann said:
Which Abrahamic covenant? No, I do not think the new covenant teaches that the Mosaic law was added to the royal covenant of kings.

The sign of the Sinai covenant is the Sabbath.
And I do not know what you you are basing an "unconditional" land covenant on?
Which covenant was this? I believe it is Genesis 17...
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

When were the Gentiles under the Sinai covenant? I am sorry but your not being clear to me.
The promise of Genesis 15 Concerns the fourth Generation of his seed, yes?

That is covered in my previous post.

An unconditional covenant has no requirements to be fulfilled.
There seems to be some confusion about the two covenants of Abraham.

The (specifically-stated) covenant of the land grant (Genesis 15:17-21) is unconditional.
The (specifically-stated) covenant to be their God (Genesis 17:3-14) is conditioned on total consecration, which was symbolized by circumcision, the sign of that covenant (Genesis 17:11).

The Mosaic (specifically stated) covenant (Exodus 24:7-8) was added (Galatians 3:19; Romans 5:20) to the conditional covenant to be their God (Genesis 17:3-14), spelling out the meaning of its condition of total consecration, which consecration was symbolized by the sign of that covenant, circumcision.

ralliann · Jan 21, 2022

Clare73 said:
That is covered in my previous post.

An unconditional covenant has no requirements to be fulfilled.
There seems to be some confusion about the two covenants of Abraham.

Ok, this is the basis of our differences.
On what basis is it unconditional? The way I am looking at things is this. Once God swears an oath, it is a done deal. He will not repent of it. Up until that point, all that was said to Abraham was conditional. All that was spoken before the oath was conditional to faith, or the perfecting of his faith.

James 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; {temptations: or, trials }
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

This being said ...

This is a condition ..be thou perfect (in faith)
Ge 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. {many … : Heb. multitude of nations }

The perfecting of Abrahams faith...Offering up Isaac.
Ge 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am

Once Abraham did this in faith...
Gen. 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; {shore: Heb. lip }
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
why? Because up to this point the only covenant made with Abraham, concerned the fourth Generation of his seed, and his seed of the first generation to the third would be dead including himself. All this seed inherits in the next world the next life.
Joseph knew he would be dead....and were

Ex 1:6 And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that generation.

Ge 50:25 And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.
Ex 13:19 And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Now that is what I believe I see in scripture. Sorry it was so long, but I am having a difficult time following you because of this.

U.S. Grant · Jan 24, 2022

Clare73 said:
Amen to that.
In context, the analogy is of law vs. faith (Galatians 4:24) in inheriting the promise.

The analogy of Hagar and Sarah is about the inheritance (promise)--by law or by faith, the law being set aside (Hebrews 7:18; Galatians 4:29) and the inheritance only by faith (Galatians 4:30-31).

True. The promised inheritance was by faith, not by the law which could not disannul the promise by faith. (Gal 3)

And so Gal 4 makes a separation between seeking the inheritance by the law or by faith.

But Gal 4 also makes separation between the inheritance by the flesh and by the Spirit.

To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

And so, it is a combination of the two: seeking the inheritance by natural birth through the law, and by Spiritual birth through the faith.

And so the Spiritual substance of Gal 4 is that them seeking Abraham's inheritance by the flesh in obedience to the law with circumcision on the 8th day, are now spiritually joined to Ishmael of Hagar, who was also natural born of Abraham and outwardly circumcised in his own household.

Them seeking the inheritance by faith through the Spirit are all now children of Abraham and sons of God by the Spirit, as was Ishmael:

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

At the cross all the natural born seed were cast out, as was Hagar and Ishmael, and remain so if they abide in unbelief.

Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

All Christians are now children of Abraham, sons of God, and brethren of Christ who is the promised seed.

All unbelieving natural born children are children of the bondwoman Hagar and brethren to Ishmael.

All unbelieving outwardly circumcised children of Israel after the flesh are now counted as that of Hagar, no more of Sarah.

Israel after the flesh has no more promise and inheritance of Abraham than does any uncircumcised natural born children of the flesh on earth:

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The promise God purposed for the natural children of Israel, to be His peculiar treasure above all people on earth in Ex 19 was nullified by their unbelief and drawing back from Himself at the mount in Ex 20.

That promise is now fulfilled in His Christians: counted for the seed which is Christ, and so are now christs born into the world by the Spirit through faith, and His peculiar treasure above all people of the earth by grace through faith.

Them still seeking that promise of Ex 19 through the flesh and the law are decieved and shall never be so, except they repent and believe Jesus.

U.S. Grant · Jan 24, 2022

ralliann said:
Ok, this is the basis of our differences.
On what basis is it unconditional? The way I am looking at things is this. Once God swears an oath, it is a done deal. He will not repent of it. Up until that point, all that was said to Abraham was conditional. All that was spoken before the oath was conditional to faith, or the perfecting of his faith.

James 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; {temptations: or, trials }
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

This being said ...

This is a condition ..be thou perfect (in faith)
Ge 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. {many … : Heb. multitude of nations }

The perfecting of Abrahams faith...Offering up Isaac.
Ge 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am

Once Abraham did this in faith...
Gen. 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; {shore: Heb. lip }
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
why? Because up to this point the only covenant made with Abraham, concerned the fourth Generation of his seed, and his seed of the first generation to the third would be dead including himself. All this seed inherits in the next world the next life.
Joseph knew he would be dead....and were

Ex 1:6 And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that generation.

Ge 50:25 And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.
Ex 13:19 And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Now that is what I believe I see in scripture. Sorry it was so long, but I am having a difficult time following you because of this.

Now that is what I believe I see in scripture. Sorry it was so long, but I am having a difficult time following you because of this.

You have given a good Scriptural proof how that God's covenant with Abraham, the Law, and now in Christ has always been conditioned on faith and the perfecting of that faith: the perfecting of the saints with holiness in the fear of the Lord.

The difficulty is in trying to understand how 'believers' would throw out such Scripture in order to trust in the lie of OSAS: unconditionally secured salvation, which is the filthy offspring of Calvin's predetermined souls, some for salvation and some for wrath.

They literally believe they have no choice in the matter, whether to believe or not, and so have no responsibility for their salvation through obedience to the faith.

The great peculiarity of it all is that they believe God has predestined them personally to believe, and so will believe in Him for their salvation, and yet God did not also predestine them personally to obey Him, and so must not obey Him for eternal salvation.

They have no choice in believing, they just believe, because it was predestined personally for them to believe, and yet they don't also have no choice in obeying, so that they also just obey, because it was also predestined for them to obey.

The believe in being predestined to belief without choice, and yet refuse being predestined to obey with choice: A truly pernicious hypocrisy of strong delusion.

The only unconditional covenant God ever made on earth was that with the sign of the rainbow, to no more flood the earth. The reason it was 'unconditional', is because it is solely based on God's oath to Himself: it is not dependent on anything any creature believes or does.

Everything God ever made with man was always conditional from the beginning: Thou shalt and thou shalt not...

Clare73 · Jan 24, 2022

U.S. Grant said:
True. The promised inheritance was by faith, not by the law which could not disannul the promise by faith. (Gal 3)
And so Gal 4 makes a separation between seeking the inheritance by the law or by faith.
But Gal 4 also makes separation between the inheritance by the flesh and by the Spirit.

Keeping in mind that Galatians is a contrast between "faith only" and "the law," and is addressed to believing Gentile Christians who were not "naturally born" under "the law."

To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Those under the law were not redeemed and were cast out because of unbelief, not because of natural birth under the law.

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

And so, it is a combination of the two: seeking the inheritance by natural birth through the law, and by Spiritual birth through the faith.

But is it?

"Faith" implies spiritual birth, and so they are the same. . .spiritual birth = faith.

"Natural birth" implies no spiritual birth; ergo, no belief, so they are the same. . .natural birth = unbelief.

"The law" refers neither to unbelief, nor to no spiritual birth, it relates to what the believer relies on: his faith or his works ("the law").
And that choice can apply only to the faith of spiritual birth; i.e., to Christians, as in Galatians 3:2-3, not to Jewish unbelievers of no spiritual birth.

So is the combination: natural birth = "the law,"
or is it: natural birth (i.e., no spiritual birth) = unbelief? . . .or both?
Does not "the law" = works, which the believer (not unbeliever) relies on for justification instead of his faith?

And so the Spiritual substance of Gal 4 is that them seeking Abraham's inheritance by the flesh in obedience to the law with circumcision on the 8th day, are now spiritually joined to Ishmael of Hagar, who was also natural born of Abraham and outwardly circumcised in his own household.

Would not the spiritual substance of Galatians 4 actually be: reliance by the Christian on his works, instead of only on his faith, does not justify?

Them seeking the inheritance by faith through the Spirit are all now children of Abraham and sons of God by the Spirit,

But is that not a distinction between Christians only; i.e., those Christians relying on the law and those Christians relying on faith, and not a distinction between believing Christians and unbelieving Jews?

Would not the spiritual substance of Galatians 4 be:
1) when the people of God were "a child," the law was given as a tutor for the "child" to lead them to faith in Christ, when Christ would be revealed (4:1-3),
2) now that Christ has been revealed, the child is free from the tutor (the law), and enjoys the full rights and freedom of a Son (grace), no longer subject to a tutor (4:4-7),
3) justification is by grace/faith only, and not by faith's works; i.e., "the law" (4:8-20),
4) Christians are not slaves to the law, as in Hagar and the Old Covenant, rather they are free in grace for the sake of freedom (5:1), as in Sarah and the New Covenant (4:21-29),
5) "Get rid of the slave woman and her son;" i.e., put the Judaizers (professing Christians, Acts 15:5) out of the church (4:30-31).

Is not Romans 11 all we need in order to know that natural born Israel has been cut off because of unbelief? And can be restored by belief. . .just as the rest of mankind?

as was Ishmael:

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

At the cross all the natural born seed were cast out, as was Hagar and Ishmael, and remain so if they abide in unbelief.

Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

All Christians are now children of Abraham, sons of God, and brethren of Christ who is the promised seed.

All unbelieving natural born children are children of the bondwoman Hagar and brethren to Ishmael.

All unbelieving outwardly circumcised children of Israel after the flesh are now counted as that of Hagar, no more of Sarah.

Israel after the flesh has no more promise and inheritance of Abraham than does any uncircumcised natural born children of the flesh on earth:

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The promise God purposed for the natural children of Israel, to be His peculiar treasure above all people on earth in Ex 19 was nullified by their unbelief and drawing back from Himself at the mount in Ex 20.

That promise is now fulfilled in His Christians: counted for the seed which is Christ, and so are now christs born into the world by the Spirit through faith, and His peculiar treasure above all people of the earth by grace through faith.

Them still seeking that promise of Ex 19 through the flesh and the law are decieved and shall never be so, except they repent and believe Jesus.

ralliann · Jan 24, 2022

U.S. Grant said:
Now that is what I believe I see in scripture. Sorry it was so long, but I am having a difficult time following you because of this.

You have given a good Scriptural proof how that God's covenant with Abraham, the Law, and now in Christ has always been conditioned on faith and the perfecting of that faith: the perfecting of the saints with holiness in the fear of the Lord.

The difficulty is in trying to understand how 'believers' would throw out such Scripture in order to trust in the lie of OSAS: unconditionally secured salvation, which is the filthy offspring of Calvin's predetermined souls, some for salvation and some for wrath.

They literally believe they have no choice in the matter, whether to believe or not, and so have no responsibility for their salvation through obedience to the faith.

The great peculiarity of it all is that they believe God has predestined them personally to believe, and so will believe in Him for their salvation, and yet God did not also predestine them personally to obey Him, and so must not obey Him for eternal salvation.

They have no choice in believing, they just believe, because it was predestined personally for them to believe, and yet they don't also have no choice in obeying, so that they also just obey, because it was also predestined for them to obey.

The believe in being predestined to belief without choice, and yet refuse being predestined to obey with choice: A truly pernicious hypocrisy of strong delusion.

The only unconditional covenant God ever made on earth was that with the sign of the rainbow, to no more flood the earth. The reason it was 'unconditional', is because it is solely based on God's oath to Himself: it is not dependent on anything any creature believes or does.

Everything God ever made with man was always conditional from the beginning: Thou shalt and thou shalt not...

Thank you, it was long but I felt ineeded you all to understand where I was coming from, to better dialogue.
But there is this...Paul does say circumcision in the foreskin of the flesh
Ga 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Ga 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
And he also says
Ga 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
How or why?
Because the people bound themselves under an oath to the Covenant made at Sinai.

Deut 29:1 These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.

The oath of all Israel
Deut 29:9 Keep therefore the words of this covenant, and do them, that ye may prosper in all that ye do.
10 Ye stand this day all of you before the LORD your God; your captains of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, with all the men of Israel,
11 Your little ones, your wives, and thy stranger that is in thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water:
12 That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the LORD thy God, and into his oath, which the LORD thy God maketh with thee this day: {enter: Heb. pass }
13 That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
14 Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
15 But with him that standeth here with us this day before the LORD our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day:

IMO, those not standing there that day were to those yet in their loins like Levi was in Abraham's loins
Heb 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

The slave woman Hagar and the promise

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