The Six Days Are Inconsequential

chaoschristian · Jul 5, 2007

I'm simply going to allow Gluadys to post for me for now on.

I do have my own thoughts to add, poor as they are, but right now I've got to get ready to go bowling with the kids.

gluadys said:
No, phenomenology is not relativism. It makes the point that all our experience is based on our senses, and that reality may be somewhat different than what is presented to our senses.

As our creationist friends never tire of telling us "sunrise" in our day is a phenomenological term. It describes what our senses tell us is happening on the eastern horizon each morning.

Yet we know from study of the solar system that the sun is not rising; it is we on our bit of the earth's surface that are being turned toward the sun by the earth's axial rotation. But our senses don't perceive the turning of the earth. Even knowing intellectually that the earth is turning doesn't give us a phenomenological sensation of the earth turning. Our senses interpret the turning of the earth as the rising of the sun.

So to say that something is "phenomenological" does not mean the speaker thinks it did not happen, but that the description of the event may not get into the actual reality of the event and only describes what appears as phenomena to the senses.

Assyrian · Jul 5, 2007

Atlantians said:
By implication he had rejected the virgin birth and resurrection,

He claims that is not what he said.

and his reply was semantical gibberish... where is the disconnect?

By simply labelling his argument as gibberish, Mark's reply did not deal with gb's point or even attempt to engage with his point but dismissed it with an insulting label. The disconnect is that you claim gb is the one resorting personal attack while ignoring the argument.

GB never made an argument but asserted his view.

True. But Mark did ask for people's views. When gb gave his, Mark went for the throat without trying to understand what gb meant or asking him to explain.

His view implied a rejection of the virgin birth and resurrection, and he disguised the blatancy of this with semantics.

As I do not understand what gb meant by phenomenological, I do not see that his view implied any rejection of the virgin birth or resurrection. But I would much prefer to hear him explain what he believed rather than read other people claiming to know what it implied.

Instead of defending himself, explaining, and re-phrasing what he said, he simply said "I am right, And you are too stupid to understand why!"

No reference to being stupid but he did say Mark did not understand what he meant by phenomenology. Should gb have launched into a patient exposition of phenomenology at this stage, or simply pointed out that Mark's attack was launched from a complete misunderstanding of gb's position. I think gb's restrained reply was quite appropriate in the circumstances.

Bassically he said: "I don't reject these things, I just don't thik they happened."

Phenomenology is, simply put (this is a HARD word to define simply), reletivism.
IE: All is based on perception, not fact.

So he believes, according to his use of the word, he takes the Bible as an oppinion and not reality, a view and not a fact.

Beliefs, not History.

Now if I did not explain that right, please explain it.

That is probably Mark's view of the situation. I don't know what gb's view is, just that he denies all the things he has been accused of.

How can you have any other understanding of the Ressurection? He was alive or he wasn't.
And according to Paul, if He wasn't, then our faith is useless.

I don't understand the resurrection. It happened inside a sealed cave. I don't know what went on or how it happened. Doesn't mean I don't believe it.

But it is not just our understanding or the resurrection that is at issue, but our understanding of how God tells us about the resurrection in scripture. Mark seems to have jumped from gb's different understanding of how scripture works, to claim gb denies the resurrection. It doesn't follow.

Nachtjager · Jul 5, 2007

How did this thread get so off-track? The original question was simply, were the six days of creation literal, and if not, so what?

I've always had problems with much of Genesis hurting my faith, and since I've ascribed to the documentary hypothesis, I've been greatly able to work those issues out and my faith is much stronger now because of it.

The JE and P sources mixed together give us the account of creation in Genesis. I believe they were intended to be, as the OP suggested, a writ on monotheism and the power of our God, not a literal set of stereo instructions laying out how to build a galaxy or two and everything in them. This does NOT affect my Christianity or my faith in God or Christ, all it does is reaffirm that man has manipulated the message of God for thousands of years to suit their own ends and benefit themselves. It still happens today, what makes any of you think it didn't happen 1,800 years ago?

Word of God? Yes, but it's been meddled with by the hands of sinful man for the last two thousand years, and as Christians, we need to accept that and understand it - not bury our heads in the sand and call those who study the oldest surviving texts "heretics." :wave:

mark kennedy · Jul 5, 2007

Nachtjager said:
How did this thread get so off-track? The original question was simply, were the six days of creation literal, and if not, so what?

I've always had problems with much of Genesis hurting my faith, and since I've ascribed to the documentary hypothesis, I've been greatly able to work those issues out and my faith is much stronger now because of it.

The JE and P sources mixed together give us the account of creation in Genesis. I believe they were intended to be, as the OP suggested, a writ on monotheism and the power of our God, not a literal set of stereo instructions laying out how to build a galaxy or two and everything in them. This does NOT affect my Christianity or my faith in God or Christ, all it does is reaffirm that man has manipulated the message of God for thousands of years to suit their own ends and benefit themselves. It still happens today, what makes any of you think it didn't happen 1,800 years ago?

Word of God? Yes, but it's been meddled with by the hands of sinful man for the last two thousand years, and as Christians, we need to accept that and understand it - not bury our heads in the sand and call those who study the oldest surviving texts "heretics."

Do you know what was going on 2 thousand years ago? The Gospel of Jesus Christ of being testified to by eye-witnesses of His Glory. Their testimony was collected by the believing Christian community under vicious pagan persecution. With thousands of extant manuscripts the New Testament stands far and away as the best preserved historically accurate collection from antiquity. To date, I have yet to encounter a substantive argument to the contrary and yet in the Christians only section I encounter one. Very strange, very strange indeed.

Or is it?

I have asked evolutionists the same question again and again and never go a coherent response. What is the genetic basis for the evolution of the human brain from that of apes. They don't want to talk about that, they want to talk about the nylon bug and sickle cell mutations. You bring up the actual scientific literature and they will change the topic so fast it will make your head spin. If all else fails they will simply change the subject. That is the same thing they did to this thread.

Apparently Theistic Evolutionists don't like to talk about miracles in Scripture. If they are asked and they are being honest they are embarrassed by them at best.

Did any of these things actually happen?

46 Miracles Of Jesus:
The conception of Virgin Mary and the incarnation of Jesus, cloning of Jesus Mt 1:18-25; Lk.1:26-80
The Star over Bethlehem, the lesson of Nazareth, the will of God Mt 2:1-9, 23
Birth of Jesus, problems, wonders Lk.2,
Flight into Egypt, abortion Mt.2
Water into wine, wedding feast at Cana, our life a wedding feast Jn.2:1-11
Heals the nobleman's son, the Samaritan Joh 4:46-54
Jesus heals them all, Lk.6,4, Mk.6, Matt.4,9,15,19... Peter and Paul too, Act.5,19
The catch of fish, Evangelization, the catch of men Lk.5:1-11, - the second catch of fish Jn.21:6
Delivers the demoniac, Deliverance by Jesus... and by a Christian Mr.1:21-27; Lk.4:33-36
Heals the woman with the satanic spine bent for 18 years, Divine Healing by a Christian Lk.13:10-17...
The 10 plus Miracles after the Sermon of the Mount, Mat. 8 and 9
Heals Peter's mother-in-law Mt.8:14-17; Mr.1:29-31; Lk.4:38, 39
Cleanses the leper Mt.8:1-4; Mr.1:40-45; Lk.5:12-16
Jesus Heals the paralyzed man, forgiveness of Sins Mt 9:1-8; Mr 2:1-12; Lu 5:17-26
Heal of the invalid for 38 years at the pool of Bethesda, the Sabbath, the Lord's Day Jn.5:1-16
Restoring the withered hand on a Sabbath Mt.12:9-13; Mr.3:1-5; Lk. 6:6-11
Restores the centurion's servant Mt.8:5-13; Lk.7:1-10
Raises the widow's son to life at the village of Nain Lk.7:11-16
Casting out of the Mute and Blind Spirit, Beelzebub, the Kingdom, Blasphemy against the Spirit, You and I "mothers" of Jesus, Mt.12:22-37; Mr.3:11; Lk.11:14
Stills the storm Mt. 8:23-27; 14:32; Mr.4:35-41; Lk. 8:22-25
Throws demons out of two men of Gadara (Gerasa) Mt.8:28-34; Mr.5:1-20; Lk.8:26-39
Raises the daughter of Jairus from the dead Mt.9:18, 19, 23-26; Lk. 8:41, Mr.5:22-24, 35-43; 49-56
Cures the woman with the issue of blood Mt.9:20-22; Mr.5:25-34; Lk.8:43-48
Restores two blind men to sight Mt.9:27-31
Heals a demoniac Mt.9:32, 33
Walks upon Lake Galilee Mt.14:22-33; Mr.6:45-52; Jn.6:16-21
Heals the daughter of the non-Jewish, Syro-Phoenician woman, Pagans in Heaven - faith, little faith, great faith Mt.15:21-28; Mr.7:24-30
1- Feeding the 5,000, the Eucharist Matthew 14:1-21; Mark 6:35-44; Luke 9:12-17; John 6:5-15... the only miracle described in the four Gospels.
2- Feeding the 4,000, Matthew 15:29-39; Mark 8:1-9
Restores the deaf-mute man Mr.7:31-37
Restores a blind man Mr.8:22-26
Bartimaeus, or one blind man, the four conditions of a Good Prayer, four ways to Pray, Mark 10:46-52; Luke 18:35-43
Heals the epileptic boy, Power of Faith... of Prayer and Fasting Mt.17:14-21; Mr.9:14-29; Lk.9:37-43
The temple tax money obtained from a fish's mouth Mt.17:24-27
Jesus heals 10 lepers, only one of them returns to thank Jesus, Formula of Happiness in the Bible Lk.17:11-19
Heals a man born blind, physical and spiritual blindness Jn. 9
Raises Lazarus from the dead Jn.11:1-46
Cures a man with dropsy on a Sabbath Lk.14:1-6
Restores sight to two blind men near Jericho Mt.20:29-34; Mr.10:46-52; Lk.18:35-43
Condemns a fig tree Mt 21:17-22; Mr 11:12-14, 20-24
Heals the ear of Malchus Lk.22:49-51
The second catch of fish Jn.21:1-18, Jesus gives the Primacy to Peter - The first catch of fish, Lu 5:1-11
Resurrection of Jesus Himself, Mat.28, Mr.16, Lk.24, Jn.20, 1Cor.15
Ascension of Jesus, Second Coming, Lk.28:51, Act.1:9-11

Pentecost of the Jews and Christians, the 7 Episodes of Pentecost in the New Testament Ex.19-20, Lk.1, Acts 2

26 miracles of the Disciples of Jesus:

By the seventy Lk.10:17-20
By other disciples Mr.9:39; Jn.14:12
By the apostles Act.3:6, 12, 13, 16; 4:10, 30; 9:34, 35; 16:18
Stephen, Act.6:8
Philip, Act.8:4-13.
Philip carried away by the Spirit Act.8:39

9 Miracles of Peter . . .
Peter and John cure a lame man Act.3:2-11
Cures all the sick Act.5:15-16
Heals Aeneas Act.9:34
Raises Dorcas from the dead Act.9:40
Causes the death of Ananias and Sapphira Ac 5:5, 10
Peter delivered from prison Act.5:19-23
Second Peter's Miraculous Escape From Prison, Acts 12
Visions of Peter and Cornelius, Acts 10
The greatest Wonder of Peter

11 Miracles of Paul . . .
Paul cured of blindness, vision of Ananias Act.9:1-18
Strikes Elymas (Bar-Jesus) with blindness Act.13:11
Heals a cripple Act.14:10
Throws out an evil spirit Act.16:18; ,
Paul and Silas delivered from jail, Acts 16
Paul cures sick people, even touching his handkerchiefs,, 19:11-12; 28:8, 9
Raises Eutychius to life Act.20:9-12
Shakes a viper off his hand and is unharmed Act.28:5
Paul heals the father of Publius of Dysentery, Acts 28
Paul heals the sick of Malta, Acts 28
The greatest Wonder of Paul

Healings, Demon-possessed, Resurrections and over Nature... by Jesus:

Healing of individuals
Man with leprosy, Matthew 8:1-4; Mark 1:40-44; Luke 5:12-14
Roman centurion's servant, Matthew 8:5-13; Luke 7:1-10
Peter's mother-in-law, Matthew 8:14-17; Mark 1:29-31; Luke 4:38-39
Two demon-possessed men from Gadara, Matthew 8:28-34
Paralyzed man, Matthew 9:1-8; Mark 2:1-12; Luke 5:17-26
Two blind men, Matthew 9:27-31
Man mute and possessed, Matthew 9:32-33
Man blind, mute and possessed, Matthew 12:22
Canaanite woman's daughter, Matthew 15:21-28
Boy with epilepsy, Matthew 17:14-18
Two blind men, Matthew 20:29-34
Man with a shriveled hand, Matthew 12:9-13; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:6-11
Man with an evil spirit, Mark 1:23-26; Luke 4:33-36
Deaf mute, Mark 7:31-37
Blind man, Mark 8:22-26
Bartimaeus, or one blind man, Mark 10:46-52; Luke 18:35-43
Woman with bleeding, Luke 8:43-48
Crippled woman, Luke 13:11-13
Man with dropsy, Luke 14:1-4
Ten men with leprosy, Luke 17:11-19
The high priest's servant, Luke 22:50-51
Royal official's son, John 4:46-54
Man at the pool of Bethesda, John 5:1-9

Demon Possessed:
Two demon-possessed men from Gadara, Mt.8:28-34; Mr.5:1-20; Lk.8:26-39
Man mute and possessed, Matthew 9:32-33
Man blind, mute and possessed, Mat.12:22-32, Mk.3:22-30, Lk.11:14-26
Boy with epilepsy, Mt.17:14-20; Mr.9:14-29; Lk.9:37-43
Man with an evil spirit, Mark 1:23-26; Luke 4:33-36, Deliverance by Jesus... and by a Christian `
Heals the woman with the satanic spine bent for 18 years Lk.13:10-17.. Divine Healing by a Christian

Raising the dead
Jairus's daughter, Mark 5:22-42
Widow at Nain's son, Luke 7:11-15
Lazarus, John 11:1-44

Control of nature
Water into wine, John 2:1-11
Calming the storm, Matthew 8:22-27; Mark 4:35-41; Luke 8:22-25
Feeding the 5,000, Matthew 14:1-21; Mark 6:35-44; Luke 9:12-17; John 6:5-15... the only one described in the four Gospels.
Feeding the 4,000, Matthew 15:29-39; Mark 8:1-9
Walking on water, Matthew 14:22-23; Mark 6:45-52; John 6:16-21
Fish with coin, Matthew 17:24-27
Fig tree withers, Matthew 21:18-22; Mark 11:12-14, 20-25
Huge catch of fish, Luke 5:1-11:
Second catch of fish, John 21:1-11

(List taken mostly from miracles Nave's Topical Bible)

Just pick the ones you feel are historically accurate accounts. Don't be shy, just pick one or two and tell me what kind of evidence would compel you to believe something as academically unthinkable as God performing a miracle in our world. Your among Christians here and the rules against insulting, belittling or attacking someone else's beliefs or to question whether or not they are Christians. Step forward and admit that you harbor faith in a miracle working God, I won't tell anyone.

Rest assured my TE brethren this is not the last time you will be asked what you think about miracles, particularly; the incarnation, the virgin birth, the resurrection, ascension or soon return of Christ. From now on that is the only thing I have an interest in discussing on Origins Theology. Keep your copy of the Nicene Creed handy because it will be referenced often and pointedly. Above all lets me civil since we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, it is only natural for us to discuss the signs, miracles and mighty deeds of God in redemptive history, past, present and in the very near future.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Melethiel · Jul 5, 2007

All of the miracles that you listed actually happened.

gluadys · Jul 6, 2007

mark kennedy said:
Did any of these things actually happen?

Just pick the ones you feel are historically accurate accounts.

I hope you realize these are two different questions and susceptible of two different answers.

I would agree with Melethiel that these things acutally happened. I would also probably say that very few of the records are historically accurate accounts of the events.

theFijian · Jul 6, 2007

mark kennedy said:
Apparently Theistic Evolutionists don't like to talk about miracles in Scripture. If they are asked and they are being honest they are embarrassed by them at best.

Why would i be embarrassed about affirming the role of miracles in redemptive history?

Rest assured my TE brethren this is not the last time you will be asked what you think about miracles,

Oh I see, you are still perpetuating the falsehood that all Theistic Evolutionists deny the role of miracles in redemptive history. Please stop it now you've been told enough times this is not the case.

Nachtjager · Jul 6, 2007

With all due respect Mark Kennedy, this thread is not about the Gospel of Christ or His miracles, it's about the creation story in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2. Where did you get that I didn't believe in the Gospel of Jesus?

Truth be known, like it or not, the original texts which we base Christianity on are not all that old considering the importance of our faith. Much older texts, codexes, and tablets exist from other civilizations about far more trivial matters than the deity of God or mankind's salvation. To say that even the NT is one of the greater collections of writings from antiqity is absolutely ignorant. It is a collection of writings that span several hundred years, and if that's your measuring stick, you're going to find enormously huge volumes from other cultures.

Having said all that, I AM a Christian and I DO believe in Jesus being my savior and he DID perform the miracles you list. The big difference you must realize is, those deeds were recorded less than fifty to one hundred years after he performed them. People were still around at the time these deeds were recorded who saw them, and Jesus, first-hand. Genesis was written down thousands of years after the events it tells of occurred, and it was written down by Jewish priests who had serious political motivations.

If you're going to be extremely picky about it and say that Genesis cannot be wrong, then I feel you must also adopt the Jewish teaching that Jesus was not the Savior in order to remain consistent. After all, if one Jewish text is correct, should they not all be correct?

Just stirrin' the pot! Take care and God bless! :wave:

Mallon · Jul 6, 2007

mark kennedy said:
I have asked evolutionists the same question again and again and never go a coherent response. What is the genetic basis for the evolution of the human brain from that of apes.

Most people on these forums don't study the evolution of the the human brain. In fact, I don't know of any experts here who study that. I suggest you might be barking up the wrong tree by seeking answers here. You might try contacting experts in that field and asking them. Here's a short list I've put together of some relevant experts in the field. Their email addresses are freely available over the Internet.
- Ralph Holloway (Columbia University, New York)
- Karl Zilles (Institute of Medicine, Research Center Jülich)
- John Allman (California Institute of Technology, Pasadena)
- Jon Kaas (Vanderbilt University, Nashville)
- Henrik Kaessmann (University of Lausanne, Switzerland)

More here, including an explanation for the genetic basis of the evolution of the human brain, as per your request:
http://biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pbio.0030050

Apparently Theistic Evolutionists don't like to talk about miracles in Scripture. If they are asked and they are being honest they are embarrassed by them at best.

That's patently false. I hope you will apologize for that, mark. Dare I use the same "open season" label on you that the YECs perpetuate in their subforum?

Did any of these things actually happen?

46 Miracles Of Jesus: