The sins of the fathers

[Vanellus]

You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in the heavens above, on the earth below, or in the waters beneath. 9You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on their children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 10but showing loving devotion to a thousand generationsd of those who love Me and keep My commandments.
Dt 5:8-10 NIV
Compared with:
Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin
Dt 24:16 NIV
Now I know the immediate response is that the first passage refers to punishment meted out by God whereas the second passage refers to civil punishment by the authorities in OT Israel. Though doesn't that difference raise some questions?

But then you get later in the prophets:
In those days, it will no longer be said: ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the teeth of the children are set on edge.’30Instead, each will die for his own iniquity. If anyone eats the sour grapes, his own teeth will be set on edge.31Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
Jer 31:29-31
This seems to be referring to punishment from God There is a more detailed passage along similar lines in Ezekiel chapter 18

Does this indicate a progression in God's teaching to Israel which was accelerated by Jesus and attested by the NT?

He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2 Cor 3:6

For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
Heb 9:16

 

[Monksailor]

There have been several threads started in the last months on this topic. You might benefit or be satisfied from researching those.

 

[Monksailor]

Anyway, I was there and discovered that God's Word dismisses such a notion as the sins of the fathers passed on down to the sons. It IS Scriptural. Research time already invested on this topic here.

 

[Vanellus]

How would I find all these threads?

 

[Monksailor]

I am near 70 and NOT from the younger generations who should be quite able in searching and finding anything on the web but I believe that there should be a "SEARCH" magnifying glass symbol at the top of the page somewhere with a space by it to type in. Click on the space and type your search query and click on the magnifying glass. As any younger person could tell you, WHAT you type is very critical in what you get. Stay with major topical words, avoid prepositions and any superfluous words. Try typing, "sins of the fathers" for starters and refine as necessary.

 

[1213]

...to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,...

I think that is the key part to understand this matter. They are not innocent themselves, that is why they are punished. It does not mean that innocent is punished because of someone else’s sins.

 

[WebersHome]

.

The author of the web page linked below seems confident that the reason why so many Jews were caught in the Holocaust was because of the sins of the fathers.

God In The Holocaust
_

 

[Vanellus]

I am near 70 and NOT from the younger generations who should be quite able in searching and finding anything on the web but I believe that there should be a "SEARCH" magnifying glass symbol at the top of the page somewhere with a space by it to type in. Click on the space and type your search query and click on the magnifying glass. As any younger person could tell you, WHAT you type is very critical in what you get. Stay with major topical words, avoid prepositions and any superfluous words. Try typing, "sins of the fathers" for starters and refine as necessary.

I wonder whether a thread on the Las Vegas shooting (found using "sins of the fathers" in quote marks) is what you meant by "several threads ... on this topic"

I didn't realise you had to search through the forum to see if a subject has been covered before, before posting on a subject. I think there are quite a few posters who don't adhere to that restriction.

 

[Vanellus]

I think that is the key part to understand this matter. They are not innocent themselves, that is why they are punished. It does not mean that innocent is punished because of someone else’s sins.

Then if that is the interpretation what is the point of the passage in Ex/Dt? And where did the phrase about grapes come from which Jeremiah and Ezekiel both quote? It does say punish the children for the sins of their parents - not their own sins.

There's no word for "generation" in the Hebrew so it is literally:
"visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the sons to the 3rd and 4th of those who hate me"
"Those" refers to the fathers. This verse is showing how far this transference of punishment will pass down the family tree.

 

[Monksailor]

I wonder whether a thread on the Las Vegas shooting (found using "sins of the fathers" in quote marks) is what you meant by "several threads ... on this topic""

Monksailor: One must exercise wise discretion with the results of any computer search. I did not think that I needed to mention that. I am sorry.

"I didn't realise you had to search through the forum to see if a subject has been covered before, before posting on a subject. I think there are quite a few posters who don't adhere to that restriction.

Monksailor: I never said it was required. I was just trying to help out by expediting a resolve to your quest. Ramble on all you want.

 

[Vanellus]

Monksailor:
Well I thought you had some specific threads in mind rather than just a general recollection that there had been some threads on the subject.

Searching on the web more generally has been more fruitful:
https://scholar.csl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1062&context=phd

Note that there is no "those who hate me" in the later Ex 34:6,7

And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.”

It's a long paper but the thrust of it seems to be to think of this not so much as the individual salvation of the NT gospel but as the experiences of the OT nation of Israel who at times was not punished for its idolatry until later generations.

 

[1213]

...And where did the phrase about grapes come from which Jeremiah and Ezekiel both quote? It does say punish the children for the sins of their parents - not their own sins....

I have understood it is about saying that there has been.

In those days, it will no longer be said: ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the teeth of the children are set on edge.’...
Jer 31:29-31

That has been the saying in some time. It really does not necessarily mean God punishes someone of someone else’s sins. But, maybe people are punished of someone else’s sins in some way. For example, Jews have been scattered among nations previously. Those who are born in other places had not done anything for that. So, in some way I think it is true that people get punishment that they did not deserve. However, I think that is very different than to say you will get the death penalty for your fathers’ crime. I don’t think Bible means in any part that child will be punished in that way.

 

[Vanellus]

1213

I believe your point accords with the PhD thesis I linked in #11 - the punishment here is of the nation of Israel where later generations suffered exile for the idolatry of earlier generations.