"The Silver Ring Thing" abstinence program produces....pregnancies.

msjones21 said:

You're right. My "opinion" doesn't really matter. The point is that no public school should ever use a method of teaching sex education that has biblical roots. If parents wish to prohibit their child from taking a BALANCED sex education course then they are well within their rights.

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Sounds to me like your public school should have used the Bible to Balance some of the sillyness they passed on to you. Hopefully tou will wise up as you age without too much suffering.

mpshiel said:

I applaud your public school neocon in following the ways of the bible - marrying at 13 or 14 should be about right, no protection (because if anyone tries sex out of marriage - they get stoned!). And always keep your brother ready to impregnate your wife in case you die without a child. I look forward to "real" sex-education classes. When do we get to the part about cutting up women who are raped and killed into 12 parts and sending them to our relatives?

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.........and men marrying men or women marrying women strikes you as somehow being more sensible


The infinite folly of the modern mind.

neocon said:

.........and men marrying men or women marrying women strikes you as somehow being more sensible


The infinite folly of the modern mind.

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Morning neocon,

Let me run past you, some thoughts stirring in this simalcrum of the modern mind.

The place of knowledge in the fall. The partaking of the tree of knowledge.
Two things.
One: the fall is concieved as occurring through the agency of the heterosexual; as Judaism moves from some undifferentiated grasp of sexuality; it embraces knowledge, and falls, through the female.
Two: Jesus does not annihilate and banish knowledge once again, to retrun us to the Eden of Genesis; rather, he embraces knowledge, and fulfills it and turns it to the work of manifesting God, and cleaving us to this God as Christ.

Knowledge, the modern mind, as the mind of any and all modernities: moves forwards to God cleaving, and its own consumation as Christ; not back to some annihilation, and some return to Eden.
The movement from homosexuality, undifferentiated sexuality, to heterosexuality: entails fall through grasped knowledge; then some further redemption of that knowledge, to make it agian God serving. There is nothing in this spiritual journey to suggest that a active homosexual consumation, does not contribute to such fulfillment of knowledge: but rather the contrary indication, that in cleaving to undifferentiated sexuality; some understanding of genesis conditions might be entailed.

The gift of some understanding carried and enabled by homoesexuality, as opposed to the fall and subsequent redemption carried in heterosexuality, should simply not be discounted.
To bring about a humanity that knows God, will take all the circuitry and hard wiring we can muster.

rahma said:

Sex education is more then just sending teens out to have recreational sex. It includes reproductive heath and other vital information for having a happy, healthy sex life.

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A "happy, heathy" sex life with an unmarried partner

My apologies if this offends folks in the UK (because I'm talking specifically about "researchers" only, here), but most of the UK's research comes from left-wing-biased (and worse-minded) folk who carefully reject facts about the failure rate of condoms and the proven track record abstinence has over sex direct-... er, "education".

There are a lot of people in this thread who stereotype that kids who havn't had "sex ed" will wonder if they can get pregnant by having oral sex, or who might not even know to have sex when married.

Here's my experience with sex ed:

As a young teen I was educated by my mother (because I am female; had I been a male, my dad would have had "the talk" with me). She told me all I needed to know on the topic.

Note: She did not mention STD's when she had "the talk" with me. I didn't discover that STD's existed till a little later when I was watching the news and heard about homosexuals and fornicators getting it. That's when I figured out there were homosexuals. The news is really great, huh?

My mom explained to me how babies get formed. It was clear to me that oral sex was NOT how babies are made, and she didn't even have to tell me about oral sex. I found out about that later when I began to visit chat rooms and see people discuss their latest boyfriend or girlfriend and the experience they had last night with them...and, like, totally how they would soon break up.

If teenagers think that they might get pregnant by having oral sex, their parents did a pretty bad job of educating their kids about sex. Parents should be responsible for sex ed, not anyone else. Not the state. Not friends. Not the school teacher. Only the parents, who love their child the most and want the best for their child, should teach their child about sex.

Anyway, back to what I was saying before... My mom didn't explain to me how to have safe sex; why would she, when she had taught me the method of safest sex--abstinance till marriage?

My mom never made me feel afraid of sex or to think that sex was dirty and nasty. She told me that sex was one of the most beautiful, loving ways that married partners express their love for each other. My mom never threatened me or anything dumb like that. She never told me, "by golly, if you commit fornication, I'll disown you!"

Sex outside marriage, however, is dirty and nasty, and its sin. Why? Read everything below.

What is sin anyway? It's doing something God commanded us not to do. God states very clearly in the Bible that He wants us to wait until marriage. We were not created to have sex outside marriage. We want committment from the one we love. We are designed that way.

Now, if God had made us to transition from partner to partner and never commit, it would be a sin to get married and stay committed to just one person for life. Think about that.

Back to the stuff my mom taught me... She always expected me to wait until marriage. She taught me that sex is a very emotional experience, and that, to share that experience with someone who is unwilling to commit in a marriage relationship, is a foolish decision. If they won't marry you, that tells you they don't want to join their life with yours--financially, legally, emotionally, and in every other way that marriage is defined.

aeroz19 said:

My mom didn't explain to me how to have safe sex; why would she, when she had taught me the method of safest sex--abstinance till marriage?

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This is the only thing you said I have a problem with. As a parent I know full well that just because I tell my kids something that doesn't mean they are going to accept it a follow my advice. People have a way of wanting to learn things for themselves...you can't pretend it will not happen and no amount of 'good parenting' is going to change that fact. I told my kids fire is hot but it didn't stop my daughter from holding her finger over a flaming candle when she was 9...she got a blister but she learned her lesson. Fortunately it wasn't a deadly one.

mpshiel said:

1) I support personal choice in remaining a virgin until commitment, I did. So I support organizations that encourage this.

2) At the same time, I do not support those organizations as the SOLE choice - as I think the stats and studies show, the US is far behind in teaching the need for safe sex to the youth. Encourage them to abstain, fine, but let them know what to do and what is important if they chose to do otherwise (as let's face it, a majority will do). I think it interesting that while no-one would call Sweden a puritan or "down on sex" country, the early and often messages about sex safety have seemed to have worked.

3) I think that is why, when focus is put entirely or even primarily on abstinence programs, as they say, most won't keep the vow and most of those won't use protection which means......pregnancies. If we teach abstinance as a choice instead of a guilt trip maybe when people chose to have sex, they will realize it is a choice instead of a "guilty little slip".

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I agree with you 100%. I have been saying that all along!!!!!! I think being a young person and only graduating from high school a few years ago, I have a valid opinion on this. When I was in 11th grade, we had a "Sex Can WAit" program for one week in our class. They guilt-tripped us about being abstinent and showed us a bunch of pictures of people with STD's. Then they gave us little pledge cards and a pencil that said their Sex Can Wait slogan. Amazing that was the first formal sex education I recieved in school. I looked around at all of my classmates and I would say about 80% were already having sex (even though I was a virgin). I even asked the lady who was doing this "why are you telling this to 16 and 17 year olds? Why don't you start earlier? Why don't you talk about birth control to the kids my age?" The lady stammered and blushed and avoided my question completely. Luckily, my parents were very open about sex. I learned about it all from them and they were not ashamed to talk about it. I abstained from sex for a long time too, compared to my friends. It seemed like all of my friends that went to church and had parents that would beat around talking about the issue all started having sex promiscuously at a young age. It seems like the Abstinence only programs rely too much on ignorance and turning the other cheek. It is dangerous to think that all kids are going to abstain from sex and not armed with any knowledge of what their options are if they do have sex.

Brother Christman said:

My apologies if this offends folks in the UK (because I'm talking specifically about "researchers" only, here), but most of the UK's research comes from left-wing-biased (and worse-minded) folk who carefully reject facts about the failure rate of condoms and the proven track record abstinence has over sex direct-... er, "education".

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Hi BC,

Maybe the UK you think of is from the past.

The New Labour of TB is effectively a Christian Democrat party, and far from being left wing.
The NL social reformation project has soaked the funding, and driven the agenda for some years now: little large scale left wing research is done.
Everyhting is yoked to this Christian Democrat social reformation project.

We do have a left wing in social commentary, but it tends not to take on the NL social reformation project holistically: we in the UK live in a dispensation where ideology is held to be dead, and history is held to have effectively ended, and given way to technocratic management.

The left in the UK is temporarily dis-established, and has lost massive ground on almost all fronts.

Story about science.
Why did the USA miss the ozone hole for ten years, despite having the most massive scientific project, looking directly at it?
Because, within its statistical software, it had protocols which threw away extreme data: so the data that indicated the hole, were always discarded.
It was only when some Brits went through the raw data, with pencil and paper; that the hole was dicovered.

flicka said:

This is the only thing you said I have a problem with. As a parent I know full well that just because I tell my kids something that doesn't mean they are going to accept it a follow my advice. People have a way of wanting to learn things for themselves...you can't pretend it will not happen and no amount of 'good parenting' is going to change that fact. I told my kids fire is hot but it didn't stop my daughter from holding her finger over a flaming candle when she was 9...she got a blister but she learned her lesson. Fortunately it wasn't a deadly one.

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So, you should tell them, "Ok, well, you better not do it, but if you do, here's how to avoid STD's." ??? lol

Brother Christman said:

My apologies if this offends folks in the UK (because I'm talking specifically about "researchers" only, here), but most of the UK's research comes from left-wing-biased (and worse-minded) folk who carefully reject facts about the failure rate of condoms and the proven track record abstinence has over sex direct-... er, "education".

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Except that Condoms are rather effective, and have a low failure rate. While studies disagree with eachother, the upper bound for condom failure due to breakage or falling off is around 8%, with the lower bound being at 2%. And most of these failures are due to improper use rather than poor quality. when it comes to pregnancies, condoms fail to prevent pregnancies 14% of the time in adolecents as an upper bound. That number is that high because of improper use of condoms and not always wearing them when having sex. I saw a number of a study before, which I think I referenced on another thread, that showed that if condoms were alwasy used properly, they would have a failure rate of only 2% when it comes to pregnacies (but don't quote me on that). When it comes to AIDS, condoms have a 60-70% success rate. Again, failure is due to improper use of condoms and/or not always using them. Studies have shown that used properly, condoms will have a 95% sucess rate.

I would also like to see your references on abstinance only (that's what I am assuming you are refering to) being more effective than sex ed. Al the information I have looked at has shown me that abstinance only education is not as effective as sex ed. A recent study showed that the percentage of teenagers with STDs that pledged abstinance is the same as the percentage of teenagers with STDs that did not.

Also I recall another recent study within the past year that showed that areas that taught abstinance only had significantly higher percentages of teenage pregnancies and STDs than areas that taught sex ed.

Plus if you compare the US to western European countries, the US has by far the highest STD and pregnacy rates for teenagers. And in WesternEurope, IIRC, abstinance only education is extremely rare, if not, unheard of.

aeroz19 said:

So, you should tell them, "Ok, well, you better not do it, but if you do, here's how to avoid STD's." ??? lol

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yes

aeroz19 said:

So, you should tell them, "Ok, well, you better not do it, but if you do, here's how to avoid STD's." ??? lol

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Sounds good to me. Expanding on the fire analogy you quoted, we don't tell people to not touch fire and at the same time refuse to teach them how to care for themselves if they get burned. We say "You shouldn't touch the fire. But, here's how to treat a burn from it."

trunks2k said:

Sounds good to me. Expanding on the fire analogy you quoted, we don't tell people to not touch fire and at the same time refuse to teach them how to care for themselves if they get burned. We say "You shouldn't touch the fire. But, here's how to treat a burn from it."

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So true. And saying those marriage vows does not make anyone immune from unwanted pregnancies and STD's either because people have been known to be sexually active before, during and after their conversion to Christianity.

Withholding information never leads to anything good.

Quote: Originally Posted by: aeroz19 So, you should tell them, "Ok, well, you better not do it, but if you do, here's how to avoid STD's." ??? lol

flicka said:

yes

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Had my mom told me that, I would have felt encouraged to go for it. The best means of protecting your child against pre-marital sex is to let them know you are 100% against it and the better not do it. My parents' disapproval was 80% of the reason I abstained.

flicka said:

So true. And saying those marriage vows does not make anyone immune from unwanted pregnancies and STD's either because people have been known to be sexually active before, during and after their conversion to Christianity.

Withholding information never leads to anything good.

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In my experiences with learning about STD's, my parents never told me about it; I figured it out later on. This did not endanger me in any way. I wasn't going to go have sex; I knew that forniation is contrary to the will of God and my parents, and my common sense. Therefore, I was in no danger.

Informing your kids about STD's is not the best way to prevent STD's; rather, letting them know you, as their parent, disapprove of pre-marital sex, and that God disapproves, works far better. Having friends are also committed to abstinance helps too.

I'm not saying to keep the kids ignorant. They'll eventually find out anyway. I mean, look at the world we live in. Everyone is getting STD's cuz they can't stop thinking about their genitals, and they have no reason not to go for it.

aeroz19 said:

In my experiences with learning about STD's, my parents never told me about it; I figured it out later on. This did not endanger me in any way. I wasn't going to go have sex; I knew that forniation is contrary to the will of God and my parents, and my common sense. Therefore, I was in no danger.

Your parents never told you about STD's? What about pregnancy? IMHO telling teenager the cold, hard facts have more effect than just saying 'god doesn't want you to'.

Informing your kids about STD's is not the best way to prevent STD's; rather, letting them know you, as their parent, disapprove of pre-marital sex, and that God disapproves, works far better. Having friends are also committed to abstinence helps too.

Well this is just wrong. If it worked then no Christian teenager would ever have sex and this thread would be unnecessary.

I'm not saying to keep the kids ignorant. They'll eventually find out anyway. I mean, look at the world we live in. Everyone is getting STD's cuz they can't stop thinking about their genitals, and they have no reason not to go for it.

I don't want my kids finding out from anyone but me...who knows what false info they could get?

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I'm all for promoting abstinence among teenagers, but they should also know the facts and telling them will not make them think you approve. Do you REALLY think if your parents talk to you about STD's and how to avoid them you would feel encouraged to have sex? I just don't see the connection.

Firscherscherling said:

You offend easily.

And if my daughter is happy and healthy, and if she is in a mature monogamus and responsible relationship, I will not sentence her to virginity until marriage. She can have a happy and healthy sex life when she is ready. She need not be concerned about the archaic attitudes of others.

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1. If I say I'm offended by lack of morals.. than I offend easily.
If any other minority does they they should be accomidated. That's simply silly.
How come I'm easily offended, but I can't tell some pregnant 8th grader that she should have abstained until she was ready for whatever might come of it. I might hurt her feelings or offend her if I say that. ... but if I said it first, maybe she wouldn't be facing extreamly hard circumstances for raising a child, or worse the trauma of an abortion that could have been prevented. No, I can't say that though.. "she's having a hard enough time.. just accept it.. no use in hurting her feelings telling her what's right". Those are the things I hear. BS.. I won't. I'll be the honest one to hurt her feelings for her own good.

2. virginity until marrage is not a sentence... it's freedom. What a breath of fresh air it would be to discuss sex with your husband knowning he's your first. Unlike one of my sister's friend who has slept w/ half the HS and told her 3rd husband that she had only been married once before and been w/ only 2 men so that he would not be intimited by her history of the many "mature monogamus and responsible" relationships she's been in.

So yes, maybe I am easily offended... but I'd rather be easily offended than worry about STD's, pregnancy before I'm ready, lists of men to lie or avoid talking about and many other things that come w/ pre-marital sex.

God Bless,
Carina

The whole idea of leading a noble and virtuous life needs to be returned to our society without all the religious trappings that divide us. Why do we expect our children to value things like chastity and integrity when all we value is wealth and power?