The sheep or His sheep or My sheep from John 10

[janxharris]

a sheep is a type , a metaphor for election , those whom the Good shepherd guards and guides , these have always been sheep , there have always been "wolves" and "goats" "dogs" and "pigs".....and even "snakes" the metaphors are clear.

Isaiah 53:6 and Matthew 10:16 blurs your putative clarity.

John 17

[16] And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Christ said he had sheep that belonged to him , and still yet other sheep (those who would eventually believe) that were his .........Election ties us to Christ before we are born

The whosoever wills are the elect. In fact Christ is the true elect of God (1 Peter 1:20).

scripture says "whoever enters" not 'whoever becomes my sheep ' , and certainly not whoever 'becomes a sheep' .

Again, the implication is that you are saying God made some men to be non-sheep creatures - excluded from the scope of salvation.

Jesus, however, preaches to those who He says are not His sheep. There can be no other conclusion but that they have access to salvation.

 

[Hammster]

Verses 37-39 are incontrovertible proof that those that are not His sheep can become so. Jesus preached to them - He gave them the evidences and urged belief.

I hate to have to repeat this, but those two verses say nothing about one becoming His sheep.

 

[sdowney717]

Isaiah 53:6 and Matthew 10:16 blurs your putative clarity.




The whosoever wills are the elect. In fact Christ is the true elect of God (1 Peter 1:20).




Again, the implication is that you are saying God made some men to be non-sheep creatures - excluded from the scope of salvation.

Jesus, however, preaches to those who He says are not His sheep. There can be no other conclusion but that they have access to salvation.

Great point Jesus makes regarding HIS other sheep that HE has that HE must go and get also, so that there will be ONE flock and ONE Shepherd.

14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

All Jesus cares about for salvation are the sheep He owns, and the other sheep which HE owns, He owns these other sheep because HE bought them with His blood. Jesus says right here He lays down His life for the sheep.

There is a lot of blowing about of various doctrines by people regarding sheep on here, against what Jesus says about sheep.

I only post to get the truth presented which Jude also told the elect faithful to do, contesting for the faith. Many people deny these wonderful doctrines of Grace.

Jude 1
New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting to the Called

1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,

To those who are called, sanctified[a] by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.

Contend for the Faith

3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

Jude 1 lays out 3 that are denied
those who are CALLED, those He calls, he justifies and glorifies

those who are then SANCTIFIED in TRUTH, taught by the Holy Spirit by direct revelation, because they can receive the things of God having been regenerated.

Those who God PRESERVES in Jesus Christ, vs those who say you can lose your salvation.

Deny these various doctrines proves people are listening not to the Father but Satan. The only hope such ones have is God may grant repentance after having been captured by Satan to do his will.

 

[Hammster]

So are you saying that your understanding of the meaning of men/mankind in Isa 53:3 is correct and mine is wrong???

Lutheran commentator, H C Leupold, takes this view of Isaiah 53:3,


Even if it is granted that 'men' in Isa 53:3 does not refer to all people (and that's the view taken by Victor Buksbazen, one of the commentators- with Polish Jewish background - in my library (he says they refer 'not to the ordinary rank and file men, hoi polloi, but to men of stature' (Buksbazen 1971:415). However, he is adamant that the 'all we' in 'all we like sheep have gone astray' (Isa 53:6), '"kallanu" - is an emphatic assertion concerning all men, without exception, that they have an innate bent to stray or wander away from the path of righteousness. Straying is characteristic of sheep'. Then he adds concerning, 'the Lord has caused to fall on him the iniquity of us all':

Oz

For some reason, the implication that this means all men have gone astray is lost on the Arminian type. So I guess I need to repeat this once again. If all men are like sheep who've gone astray, then whose responsibility is it to go find these lost sheep? It would be the shepherd. If Jesus is a good shepherd, then isn't it safe to say that He would find all of the stray sheep? And if this is true (and if you don't believe it to be true, then maybe you don't think He's that good of a shepherd), it leads right to universalism. I'm pretty sure you don't want to go there.


And Cyg did quote you.

 

[janxharris]

I hate to have to repeat this, but those two verses say nothing about one becoming His sheep.

Jesus presents they way to salvation to them. He gives them the evidence and urges belief. Your theology makes Jesus speak with a forked tongue. You cannot deny that He is preaching unto salvation to them. His persistence is evident in that He says, 'even though you do not believe me, believe in the works...' So, though you can't believe this, believe that. He doesn't give up until they try to seize Him.

Does He say to them 'believe'? Yes He does. If you are right, and they can't, then Jesus' integrity must be called into question.

Verse 26 merely says that they are following another. Jesus never says they cannot be His sheep. Verses 37-38 prove this.

 

[janxharris]

Deny these various doctrines proves people are listening not to the Father but Satan

This is reportable.

 

[cygnusx1]

Isaiah 53:6 and Matthew 10:16 blurs your putative clarity.

the fact remains some are "dogs" others are called "snakes" still others are called "goats" and "pigs" .... "sheep" are distinguished as a type for a reason , they are lead , they are 'simple' creatures who do not rely on guile and do not have the nature of a hunter/devourer.

The whosoever wills are the elect. In fact Christ is the true elect of God (1 Peter 1:20).

I think you are very confused here , if the whosoever wills are the elect then that means the whosoever wills is restricted and limited , NOT everyone is elect remember .. and Christ is head elect of His elect body of members.

Again, the implication is that you are saying God made some men to be non-sheep creatures - excluded from the scope of salvation.

men are born sinners , so what is the difference ? are you saying its unfair that God created men sinners ?

Jesus, however, preaches to those who He says are not His sheep. There can be no other conclusion but that they have access to salvation.

only those who are of God hear God .

only those given to Christ by the Father come

only those who are Christ's sheep follow him

only those who are in the spirit mind the things of the spirit , the flesh profiteth nothing.

the way is narrow and few there are that find it .... you can attempt to make the way wide all you wish , but it still remains narrow , full of obstacles and easy believism is one of the worst obstacles to salvation.

 

[Hammster]

Jesus presents they way to salvation to them. He gives them the evidence and urges belief. Your theology makes Jesus speak with a forked tongue. You cannot deny that He is preaching unto salvation to them. His persistence is evident in that He says, 'even though you do not believe me, believe in the works...' So, though you can't believe this, believe that. He doesn't give up until they try to seize Him.

Does He say to them 'believe'? Yes He does. If you are right, and they can't, then Jesus' integrity must be called into question.

Verse 26 merely says that they are following another. Jesus never says they cannot be His sheep. Verses 37-38 prove this.

It doesn't "merely" say they are following another. He is explaining why they don't hear Him. To say that He saying that they follow another is to do great abuse to the text.

But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. (John 10:26 NASB)

 

[cygnusx1]

contrast these sayings ;




Matthew 7:6. Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.



John 10
14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

Matt 23:33
"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?


John 10
16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Matthew 25
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Matthew 7:15

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
​

 

[janxharris]

It doesn't "merely" say they are following another. He is explaining why they don't hear Him. To say that He saying that they follow another is to do great abuse to the text.

But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. (John 10:26 NASB)

If they are not His sheep then they of another shepherd.

 

[Hammster]

If they are not His sheep then they of another shepherd.

And even if you are correct that they are still sheep, it still doesn't solve your problem.

But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. (John 10:26 NASB)

The reason they don't believe is BECAUSE they aren't His sheep. It doesn't say that they aren't His sheep because they don't believe. That's how your argumentation is reasoning it.

 

[sdowney717]

contrast these sayings ;




Matthew 7:6. Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.



John 10
14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

Matt 23:33
"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?


John 10
16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Matthew 25
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Matthew 7:15

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
​

Right on brother, keep proclaiming the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ, even in the face of Satanic opposition.

11 Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly—and indeed you do bear with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity[a] that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!

They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

The question for all is whose side will you be on? Just as Moses asked and the Levites responded and stood with Moses against the rebels in the camp.

25 Now when Moses saw that the people were unrestrained (for Aaron had not restrained them, to their shame among their enemies), 26 then Moses stood in the entrance of the camp, and said, “Whoever is on the Lord’s side—come to me!” And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together to him. 27 And he said to them, “Thus says the Lord God of Israel: ‘Let every man put his sword on his side, and go in and out from entrance to entrance throughout the camp, and let every man kill his brother, every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.’” 28 So the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses. And about three thousand men of the people fell that day. 29 Then Moses said, “Consecrate yourselves today to the Lord, that He may bestow on you a blessing this day, for every man has opposed his son and his brother.”

 

[OzSpen]

I receive email notification whether someone back quotes or not Oz.

How can I organise for that to happen?

 

[OzSpen]

He does back quote Oz

Yes, he did on this occasion, in response to me. That was my error.

However, I was considering some other occasions when he does not backquote.

 

[janxharris]

How can I organise for that to happen?

I don't know. I've always receive such automatically. Perhaps Hammster can advise.

 

[OzSpen]

^ thanks twice over janx

But you did not backquote with this one, which was the point I was making.

 

[OzSpen]

a sheep is a type , a metaphor for election , those whom the Good shepherd guards and guides , these have always been sheep , there have always been "wolves" and "goats" "dogs" and "pigs".....and even "snakes" the metaphors are clear.

Sheep is not a metaphor for election in Isaiah 53:6,

All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

 

[cygnusx1]

But you did not backquote with this one, which was the point I was making.

Yes , sometimes I don't back quote sometimes I do , often it doesn't seem worth it , and other times this iPad screen jumps up and down like a kangaroo with the ads .... If I back quote it's usually because I want to be specific , to that post .

 

[cygnusx1]

Sheep is not a metaphor for election in Isaiah 53:6,

Sure it is .... The fact that the entire bible is covenant centered should tell you that .

"But the Egyptians and Assyrians went astray too" !

So ?

Can you not see Christ wasn't sent to them or for them but for the elect ...

Contextually the nations surrounding Israel were punished with Divine wrath rather than covenant love God showed to Israel , Christ was not sent to the Gentiles , that mission was reserved for the Apostles , until the full number of the Gentiles come in then all Israel shall be saved .


A careful reading of the text places the covenant design of the Lords atonement clearly in view , one of the problems with a quotation from scripture to prove a point is often under cross examination it proves the reverse , so if we re-read Isaiah 53 instead of stopping at verse 6 , we discover the amplified truth ,

Verse 8 is enlightening here ,

[8] He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken

 

[Ignatius21]

I have nothing to add to this discussion. But I think I have the honor of making it reach 1,000 posts