The serious danger of Doctrinal error....

[StTherese]

No. Millions of addicts are a testimony to bound choices , and Jesus spoke about being slaves of sin , not 'being free not to sin' ..........

Ever heard of recovering addicts? I do agree though, that when we sin, it becomes easier and easier to sin again and again and thus leading to addiction. But, it is not impossible for an addict to change their actions and decisions if they so choose, however not without much difficulty. Sometimes doing the will of God goes against our own will/desires...but we can choose to do His will instead of our own.

OK , let's go directly to the heart of this question , do you agree that God willed the death of Christ ?

I believe God allowed it to happen for the better good that would come from it.

 

[cygnusx1]

Ever heard of recovering addicts? I do agree though, that when we sin, it becomes easier and easier to sin again and again and thus leading to addiction. But, it is not impossible for an addict to change their actions and decisions if they so choose, however not without much difficulty. Sometimes doing the will of God goes against our own will/desires...but we can choose to do His will instead of our own.

sure i have heard of recovering addicts , they have far more work to do than a simple decision , they have to get behind what makes them desire the things they are addicted to , they have to do some "re-programming" then the will follows , Jesus came and revealed men are slaves of sin , not free neutral agents.

I believe God allowed it to happen for the better good that would come from it.

aside from the attempt at watering down what the scriptures say (they say a lot more than "allowed" )


Acts.2

[1] And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
[2] And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
[3] And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
[4] And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
[5] And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
[6] Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
[7] And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
[8] And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
[9] Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
[10] Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
[11] Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
[12] And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
[13] Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
[14] But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
[15] For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
[16] But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
[17] And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
[18] And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
[19] And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
[20] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
[21] And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
[22] Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
[23] Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
[24] Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
[25] For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
[26] Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
[27] Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
[28] Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
[29] Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
[30] Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
[31] He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
[32] This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
[33] Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
[34] For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
[35] Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
[36] Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
[37] Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[39] For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
[40] And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
[41] Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
[42] And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
[43] And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
[44] And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
[45] And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
[46] And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
[47] Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Acts.4

[1] And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them,
[2] Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
[3] And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide.
[4] Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.
[5] And it came to pass on the morrow, that their rulers, and elders, and scribes,
[6] And Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem.
[7] And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this?
[8] Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
[9] If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;
[10] Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
[11] This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
[12] Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
[13] Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
[14] And beholding the man which was healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it.
[15] But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves,
[16] Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it.
[17] But that it spread no further among the people, let us straitly threaten them, that they speak henceforth to no man in this name.
[18] And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.
[19] But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
[20] For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.
[21] So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.
[22] For the man was above forty years old, on whom this miracle of healing was shewed.
[23] And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them.
[24] And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
[25] Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
[26] The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
[27] For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
[28] For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
[29] And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
[30] By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
[31] And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
[32] And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
[33] And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
[34] Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
[35] And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
[36] And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,
[37] Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.





you now admit God allowed sin , that God made a decision to "allow sin" ............ you do realise allowing something is willing it ?

 

[StTherese]

you now admit God allowed sin , that God made a decision to "allow sin" ............ you do realise allowing something is willing it ?

Is God capable of sinning? Can He deny Himself?

 

[Dorothea]

The man was/is obviously unstable, if not insane. So your using him as an example about losing salvation or whatever doctrine you think isn't relevant to this person. Who are you going to use as an example next? Andrea Yates?

 

[cygnusx1]

Is God capable of sinning? Can He deny Himself?

God never sins , God cannot lie ........... yet that does not prevent Him from sending forth lying spirits , God is Sovereign not merely in word.

 

[StTherese]

God never sins , God cannot lie ........... yet that does not prevent Him from sending forth lying spirits , God is Sovereign not merely in word.

Oh, yes, because He likes to confuse us and play games with us, right?

Sending forth a lying spirit would be the same thing as lying Himself. If I told someone to go tell a lie, I would be just as guilty as the one who told the lie.

 

[nobdysfool]

Oh, yes, because He likes to confuse us and play games with us, right?

Sending forth a lying spirit would be the same thing as lying Himself. If I told someone to go tell a lie, I would be just as guilty as the one who told the lie.

Well sorry to pop your bubble, but read 1 Kings 22:19-23 where God does precisely that.

Looks like your theology needs an adjustment.....

 

[StTherese]

Well sorry to pop your bubble, but read 1 Kings 22:19-23 where God does precisely that.

Looks like your theology needs an adjustment.....

Really?

Go back and read the whole chapter in context (1 Kings 22).

Here, I will summarize it for you...

The King of Israel and the King of Judah were talking about going to war to claim Ramoth-gilead,
So they gathered about 400 prophets to discern the outcome as to whether or not they would succeed. They all agreed that the Lord would side with the king and they would win the war.The king of Judah asked the king of Israel if there were another prophet in whom they should consult. He told him of Micaiah even though he said that he hated him because he always spoke evil of him and never good. They consulted with Micaiah and told him that the others had spoken good of the king and so should he. Micaiah answered them by saying, "As the LORD lives, I shall say whatever the LORD tells me. Then he too predicted a good outcome for the king. But the kings response was, ""How many times must I adjure you to tell me nothing but the truth in the name of the LORD?"

17 So Micaiah said: "I see all Israel scattered on the mountains, like sheep without a shepherd, and the LORD saying, 'These have no master! Let each of them go back home in peace.'" 18 The king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, "Did I not tell you he prophesies not good but evil about me?" 19 1 Micaiah continued: "Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD seated on his throne, with the whole host of heaven standing by to his right and to his left. 20 The LORD asked, 'Who will deceive Ahab, so that he will go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?' And one said this, another that, 21 until one of the spirits came forth and presented himself to the LORD, saying, 'I will deceive him.' The LORD asked, 'How?' 22 He answered, 'I will go forth and become a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets.' The LORD replied, 'You shall succeed in deceiving him. Go forth and do this.' 23 So now, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours, but the LORDhimself has decreed evil against you."


Micaiah was not truly giving a prophesy. He was attempting to keep the kings from going to war by causing them to doubt the prophecies of thier success. And too, this was Micaiah's reponse to the king for doubting his prophesy in the first place which was that they would in fact win the war....but the king of Israel doubted the truthfulness of Micaiah's prophesy so his response was this....that the Lord had put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours and has decreed evil against you....

 

[cygnusx1]

Oh, yes, because He likes to confuse us and play games with us, right?

Sending forth a lying spirit would be the same thing as lying Himself. If I told someone to go tell a lie, I would be just as guilty as the one who told the lie.

#God not only sends forth lying Spirits , He also sends whole armies to kill men women and children ......... and God never once is guilty of anything except Holiness !


You are attempting to place God where humans are , under a moral Law ..... God is under no such Law.

 

[cygnusx1]

most people when they look at difficult scriptures either ignore them or reduce them ... so when we read of God controlling all things (Rom 8 & Eph 1) and sending out lying Spirits , blinding mens eyes , and hardening men's hearts , putting it into the heart of a person or peoples to do such and such* , then for many this is just simply too much to grasp and acknowledge as true so they fall back on "God knows all things , He doesn't decide all things " .... scripture does not shy away from the truth that God Foreknows and determines all events on this earth , yes that does mean God has a choice about every single event that ever did and ever will take place , including sin .... God is Sovereign .

To fall back on mere Forkenowledge is reductionism and really answers nothing , it makes God passive and no help whatsoever , just like some deist concept , a God who has abandomned control , if He ever had it of the universe.


btw , determining all events is NOT the same as making people sin!
There are two aspects to God's Comprehensive Decree. Efficacy and Permission , both are according to God's wisdom and FREE-WILL> ie, God has a choice over every single event no matter how significant or insignificant , the very hairs on your head are all numbered


*KJV: And my God put into mine heart to gather together the nobles, and the rulers, and the people, that they might be reckoned by genealogy. And I found a register of the genealogy of them which came up at the first, and found written therein,

KJV: But thanks be to God, which put the same earnest care into the heart of Titus for you.


KJV: For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.


etc

 

[nobdysfool]

Really?

Go back and read the whole chapter in context (1 Kings 22).

Here, I will summarize it for you...

The King of Israel and the King of Judah were talking about going to war to claim Ramoth-gilead,
So they gathered about 400 prophets to discern the outcome as to whether or not they would succeed. They all agreed that the Lord would side with the king and they would win the war.The king of Judah asked the king of Israel if there were another prophet in whom they should consult. He told him of Micaiah even though he said that he hated him because he always spoke evil of him and never good. They consulted with Micaiah and told him that the others had spoken good of the king and so should he. Micaiah answered them by saying, "As the LORD lives, I shall say whatever the LORD tells me. Then he too predicted a good outcome for the king. But the kings response was, ""How many times must I adjure you to tell me nothing but the truth in the name of the LORD?"

17 So Micaiah said: "I see all Israel scattered on the mountains, like sheep without a shepherd, and the LORD saying, 'These have no master! Let each of them go back home in peace.'" 18 The king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, "Did I not tell you he prophesies not good but evil about me?" 19 1 Micaiah continued: "Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD seated on his throne, with the whole host of heaven standing by to his right and to his left. 20 The LORD asked, 'Who will deceive Ahab, so that he will go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?' And one said this, another that, 21 until one of the spirits came forth and presented himself to the LORD, saying, 'I will deceive him.' The LORD asked, 'How?' 22 He answered, 'I will go forth and become a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets.' The LORD replied, 'You shall succeed in deceiving him. Go forth and do this.' 23 So now, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours, but the LORDhimself has decreed evil against you."


Micaiah was not truly giving a prophesy. He was attempting to keep the kings from going to war by causing them to doubt the prophecies of thier success. And too, this was Micaiah's reponse to the king for doubting his prophesy in the first place which was that they would in fact win the war....but the king of Israel doubted the truthfulness of Micaiah's prophesy so his response was this....that the Lord had put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours and has decreed evil against you....

Too bad you can't read. Micaiah was a true prophet of God, The others weren't. What Micaiah spoke concerning the lying spirit was the Word of the Lord. Therefore, your attempt to explain away an inconvenient truth is squashed.

Oh, and by the way, notice that Ahab tries to disguise himself to avoid death as was prophesied, but he was hit by a "random" arrow, and died. .

Go read Genesis 50:20, re-read 1 Kings 22;19-23 again without your blinders, Exodus 4:21, and Acts 2:23. All of these scriptures conclusively show that God is in control of and uses the evil acts of men to achieve His Purposes.

Your theology needs a major adjustment.