The serious danger of Doctrinal error....

[Ormly]

no ........ reading from your side of the woods I would have to say it was something forced on man , free will was not offered it was impaled !

and from my side of the woods faith is something "God gave to us" and God expects us to exercise it.


btw , do we have free will to reject free will ?

We have God given freewill to have any kind of relationship we want. The account of Adam , reveals that.

 

[StTherese]

An aside, this is a great point. The Greek word used for this is the word for "completing" or "reaching the goal."

In other words James may be describing a purpose for faith -- a purpose which does end up in good actions. cf. Eph 2:10.

Actions are a means to an end, they are not the end. Things that we do have cause and effect. God put this world in order, He set it in motion. You could say He is the "first mover".
Lets say your goal is to be an Olympic athlete. Do you not think there is going to be some "work" involved in the "process" of achieving that goal?

 

[StTherese]

no ........ reading from your side of the woods I would have to say it was something forced on man , free will was not offered it was impaled !

and from my side of the woods faith is something "God gave to us" and God expects us to exercise it.


btw , do we have free will to reject free will ?

Then how is it that Eve went against the will of God? God told her not to eat of a specific tree and when tempted she chose to do it anyway...how could she do that when it was God's will that she not?

 

[beloved57]

Then how is it that Eve went against the will of God? God told her not to eat of a specific tree and when tempted she chose to do it anyway...how could she do that when it was God's will that she not?

Gods preceptive will and His decreed will are different, when God gives His covenant people a law, it was to show them their sinfulness..

as in this principal:

gal 3:

24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

After adam and eves fall, christ was revealed to them..Thats why God decreed the fall, He had a higher purpose..

Paul said in rom 7

7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Adam and eve would not have known sin except the divine law said thou shalt not eat of that particular tree..

 

[jmacvols]

no ........ reading from your side of the woods I would have to say it was something forced on man , free will was not offered it was impaled !

God gave Adam free will and we see God letting Adam exercise that free will when he ate of the forbidden tree. God did not step in and stop them from eating from this tree.

and from my side of the woods faith is something "God gave to us" and God expects us to exercise it.

Rom 10:17 faith comes by hearing the word of God. Faith is not something that God miraculously 'implants' in people apart from the word, the bible. It is hearing the word that produces faith.

btw , do we have free will to reject free will ?

You reject the idea that men have free will. How are you able to reject free will? Did you chose to reject it yourself or is someone compelling you to reject free will?

 

[jmacvols]

An aside, this is a great point. The Greek word used for this is the word for "completing" or "reaching the goal."

In other words James may be describing a purpose for faith -- a purpose which does end up in good actions. cf. Eph 2:10.

James is saying that faith must include actions, that is faith inlcudes works, faith is a work. A faith that does not include works (faith alone or faith apart from works) is dead and cannot do anything--it cannot save.

 

[StTherese]

Gods preceptive will and His decreed will are different, when God gives His covenant people a law, it was to show them their sinfulness..

as in this principal:

gal 3:

24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

After adam and eves fall, christ was revealed to them..Thats why God decreed the fall, He had a higher purpose..

Paul said in rom 7

7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Adam and eve would not have known sin except the divine law said thou shalt not eat of that particular tree..

So you are saying God has more than one will?

All of history that we see and throughout the OT, God has been preparing the world for the coming of Christ. That was the purpose in the laws and the covenants, they all lead up to the new and everlasting covenant that we have in Jesus Christ. God showed us His will in the person of Jesus. His Word is His Will.

 

[StTherese]

James is saying that faith must include actions, that is faith inlcudes works, faith is a work. A faith that does not include works (faith alone or faith apart from works) is dead and cannot do anything--it cannot save.

 

[cygnusx1]

We have God given freewill to have any kind of relationship we want. The account of Adam , reveals that.

the account of Adam only shows men make choices , it doesn't even begin to philosophise how "free" or determined those choices are ............

 

[cygnusx1]

God gave Adam free will and we see God letting Adam exercise that free will when he ate of the forbidden tree.

scripture doesn't say so , you are infering free choice where scripture mentions only choice.Nowhere do the scriptures teach any mans will is free .

God did not step in and stop them from eating from this tree.

but God could have done , therefore man's will is subject not only to his strongest desires but totally subject to the will of God , always !

Rom 10:17 faith comes by hearing the word of God. Faith is not something that God miraculously 'implants' in people apart from the word, the bible. It is hearing the word that produces faith.

free will when examined is open to much more of an objection of force than free gift of faith ever was ..... or do you wish to show me where you are given the choice to accept this free will , what !!!! , no choice , then by your own standards it was thrust impaled on man !!!

You reject the idea that men have free will. How are you able to reject free will? Did you chose to reject it yourself or is someone compelling you to reject free will?

how is asking a question answering my question ?

 

[Ormly]

the account of Adam only shows men make choices , it doesn't even begin to philosophise how "free" or determined those choices are ............

You have to ignore the whole context of the Bible believe that; everything that asks , "if you will be willing.." If will choose... "Choose you this day, this way, etc...."

.....Philosophying the bible and 0.10 won't buy you a "cup of coffee" to your understanding. But then I see you are a Calvinist which explains everything.

 

[StTherese]

the account of Adam only shows men make choices , it doesn't even begin to philosophise how "free" or determined those choices are ............

If you are able to make a choice, doesn't that mean you are "free" to make it???

Is sin ever the will of God? Just because God allows something doesn't mean He wills it. Just the fact that sin exists in the world shows that we are not forced to do God's will.

 

[AndOne]

If you are able to make a choice, doesn't that mean you are "free" to make it???

Is sin ever the will of God? Just because God allows something doesn't mean He wills it. Just the fact that sin exists in the world shows that we are not forced to do God's will.

Sin exists in the world to show forth God's glory - God's grace would not be known without sin. All things in this world - including sin - are a means to an end - namely for God's ultimate glory.

The reason sin is in this world is because man cannot do good in and of himself. We are fallen - incapable of choosing righteousness until God makes us able. Its not a matter of being "forced" to do God's will. It is simply that we "can't" do it until God through his Spirit changes our dark, evil hearts to be able to do so.

 

[StTherese]

Sin exists in the world to show forth God's glory - God's grace would not be known without sin. All things in this world - including sin - are a means to an end - namely for God's ultimate glory.

The reason sin is in this world is because man cannot do good in and of himself. We are fallen - incapable of choosing righteousness until God makes us able. Its not a matter of being "forced" to do God's will. It is simply that we "can't" do it until God through his Spirit changes our dark, evil hearts to be able to do so.

So are you saying God created us to be evil...that God is the author of sin?

 

[AndOne]

So are you saying God created us to be evil...that God is the author of sin?

Nope - I'm saying that all things occur unto the glory of God's name.

 

[cygnusx1]

If you are able to make a choice, doesn't that mean you are "free" to make it???

No. Millions of addicts are a testimony to bound choices , and Jesus spoke about being slaves of sin , not 'being free not to sin' ..........

Is sin ever the will of God? Just because God allows something doesn't mean He wills it. Just the fact that sin exists in the world shows that we are not forced to do God's will.

OK , let's go directly to the heart of this question , do you agree that God willed the death of Christ ?

 

[cygnusx1]

You have to ignore the whole context of the Bible believe that; everything that asks , "if you will be willing.." If will choose... "Choose you this day, this way, etc...."

.....Philosophying the bible and 0.10 won't buy you a "cup of coffee" to your understanding. But then I see you are a Calvinist which explains everything.

it is the free willers who are engaging in making scripture support a philosophical construct "free will" , but i see you are anti-Calvinist which explains everything !

 

[Ormly]

it is the free willers who are engaging in making scripture support a philosophical construct "free will" , but i see you are anti-Calvinist which explains everything !

You don't understand what Biblical philosophying means if you believe it to mean taking plain scripture, that can't be construed in any other way and purposefully, willfully, blatantly, mis-construe it to say what it doesn't say.

The Calvin camp has turned God into a "puppeteer".

The Bible clearly has Him as Father who "DESIRES" sons from a love disposition. Love, FREELY given to Him.
Can you really argue with that?? Can you really say, that isn't so?

 

[cygnusx1]

You don't understand what Biblical philosophying means if you believe it to mean taking plain scripture, that can't be construed in any other way and purposefully, willfully, blatantly, mis-construe it to say what it doesn't say.

The Calvin camp has turned God into a "puppeteer".

The Bible clearly has Him as Father who "DESIRES" sons from a love disposition. Love, FREELY given to Him.
Can you really argue with that?? Can you really say, that isn't so?

yes I can , I think from scripture and plain reason it is absurd!

"we love God BECAUSE He first loved us " , cause and effect rules out the philosophical free-will / free-love.

The anti-Calvinist camp have God as a puppet and sinners the puppeteers!

 

[Ormly]

yes I can , I think from scripture and plain reason it is absurd!

"we love God BECAUSE He first loved us " , cause and effect rules out the philosophical free-will / free-love.

The anti-Calvinist camp have God as a puppet and sinners the puppeteers!

What makes you believe He loves you, .... because you say you love Him?


It that your proof?