The serious danger of Doctrinal error....

[StTherese]

Well then Christ needs to bring them on the carpet.

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?' Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. Mt 25:41-46​

But of course, what you've quoted does not support what was concluded.

It is because they chose to ignore the grace of God, the salvific gift that is meant for the entire world. Those who choose not to do the will of God and will suffer the consequence.

 

[StTherese]

contextually 1 Tim 2:1-4 has reference to all men without distinction not all without exception.

And where do you come up with that? Is that one man's idea of it?

1 Sam 2



Chapter 2

1: Hannah also prayed and said, "My heart exults in the LORD; my strength is exalted in the LORD. My mouth derides my enemies, because I rejoice in thy salvation.
2: "There is none holy like the LORD, there is none besides thee; there is no rock like our God.
3: Talk no more so very proudly, let not arrogance come from your mouth; for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed.
4: The bows of the mighty are broken, but the feeble gird on strength.
5: Those who were full have hired themselves out for bread, but those who were hungry have ceased to hunger. The barren has borne seven, but she who has many children is forlorn.
6: The LORD kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up.
7: The LORD makes poor and makes rich; he brings low, he also exalts.
8: He raises up the poor from the dust; he lifts the needy from the ash heap, to make them sit with princes and inherit a seat of honor. For the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and on them he has set the world.
9: "He will guard the feet of his faithful ones; but the wicked shall be cut off in darkness; for not by might shall a man prevail.
10: The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; against them he will thunder in heaven. The LORD will judge the ends of the earth; he will give strength to his king, and exalt the power of his anointed."
11: Then Elka'nah went home to Ramah. And the boy ministered to the LORD, in the presence of Eli the priest.
12: Now the sons of Eli were worthless men; they had no regard for the LORD.
13: The custom of the priests with the people was that when any man offered sacrifice, the priest's servant would come, while the meat was boiling, with a three-pronged fork in his hand,
14: and he would thrust it into the pan, or kettle, or caldron, or pot; all that the fork brought up the priest would take for himself. So they did at Shiloh to all the Israelites who came there.
15: Moreover, before the fat was burned, the priest's servant would come and say to the man who was sacrificing, "Give meat for the priest to roast; for he will not accept boiled meat from you, but raw."
16: And if the man said to him, "Let them burn the fat first, and then take as much as you wish," he would say, "No, you must give it now; and if not, I will take it by force."
17: Thus the sin of the young men was very great in the sight of the LORD; for the men treated the offering of the LORD with contempt.
18: Samuel was ministering before the LORD, a boy girded with a linen ephod.
19: And his mother used to make for him a little robe and take it to him each year, when she went up with her husband to offer the yearly sacrifice.
20: Then Eli would bless Elka'nah and his wife, and say, "The LORD give you children by this woman for the loan which she lent to the LORD"; so then they would return to their home.
21: And the LORD visited Hannah, and she conceived and bore three sons and two daughters. And the boy Samuel grew in the presence of the LORD.
22: Now Eli was very old, and he heard all that his sons were doing to all Israel, and how they lay with the women who served at the entrance to the tent of meeting.
23: And he said to them, "Why do you do such things? For I hear of your evil dealings from all the people.
24: No, my sons; it is no good report that I hear the people of the LORD spreading abroad.
25: If a man sins against a man, God will mediate for him; but if a man sins against the LORD, who can intercede for him?" But they would not listen to the voice of their father; for it was the will of the LORD to slay them.

In other words, who can intercede for a man who ignores the will and grace of God? God wills and aids in our salvation by freely giving grace.....but if we reject it, what can God do but allow them to go down the path they have chosen.......death.

 

[Ben12]

And where do you come up with that? Is that one man's idea of it?


In other words, who can intercede for a man who ignores the will and grace of God? God wills and aids in our salvation by freely giving grace.....but if we reject it, what can God do but allow them to go down the path they have chosen.......death.

How can a sinner choose God?
Is the sinner not dead in trespasses and sin; how does a dead man choose?

A sinner does not ignore God’s grace; he just does not have any spiritual life to apprehend it. As I said he is dead spiritually; a dead man cannot see, hear, touch, etc. You can yell at him, kick him; he is dead it will do no good.

God is not calling all people now.

 

[Ben12]

Clearly it is written, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in His own order; Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor. 15:22-23). There is no doubt concerning the totality of salvation for every man-- whatever was affected by death through Adam, shall be MADE ALIVE THROUGH CHRIST. The triumph of Christ is far greater than the sin of Adam. But the point that is before us is that of TIMING-- with "every man in his own order." There is DIVINE ORDER in this NEW CREATION that is being brought forth, as God gathers one by one a people unto Himself. From Calvary until this present time, God has been working in what is rightly termed "HIS FIRSTFRUITS." We who are living at the ending of this age (web ed. note: which still could be a long ways away) are still being drawn into this "firstfruits order." But never forget, the firstfruits of a harvest are the PROMISE that all the rest of the harvest will follow in its time.

 

[StTherese]

How can a sinner choose God?
Is the sinner not dead in trespasses and sin; how does a dead man choose?

A sinner does not ignore God’s grace; he just does not have any spiritual life to apprehend it. As I said he is dead spiritually; a dead man cannot see, hear, touch, etc. You can yell at him, kick him; he is dead it will do no good.

God is not calling all people now.

Actually God is calling all people now. The sacrafice of Jesus is meant for ALL....but it is up to us individually to respond to His grace. The reason a sinner does not have a "spiritual life" is because they have rejected it. God freely gives it to all of us.

 

[Ben12]

Actually God is calling all people now. The sacrafice of Jesus is meant for ALL....but it is up to us individually to respond to His grace. The reason a sinner does not have a "spiritual life" is because they have rejected it. God freely gives it to all of us.

And where do you find that in scripture?

No one can respond to God unless God draws you.


Romans 3: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Gk(drag) all men unto me.

1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):


Are you speaking of freewill? It is not a matter of freewill; (we are saved by grace not freewill) free will is a non scriptural word that religious men use ) for the only freewill we have is to sin; it is a matter of processing, maturing, growing and developing, learning etc. Freewill is not scriptural in fact the Bible teaches totally contrary to the religious man made believe in freewill.

 

[StTherese]

And where do you find that in scripture?

1 Tim 2:3-4

3This is good and pleasing to God our savior,
4 who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.

No one can respond to God unless God draws you.

I agree...and God calls all of us.

Are you speaking of freewill? It is not a matter of freewill; (we are saved by grace not freewill) free will is a non scriptural word that religious men use ) for the only freewill we have is to sin; it is a matter of processing, maturing, growing and developing, learning etc. Freewill is not scriptural in fact the Bible teaches totally contrary to the religious man made believe in freewill.

If we have the freewill to sin, then we must also have the freewill to do the will of God....or there is no freewill at all. If we are able to choose sin, that must mean that there is a choice involved between something sinful or something good.
Why would God force us to choose Him or to reject Him?? That can not ever result in true love, which is what He desires from us. Love is a sacrafice...Without the ability to choose, there is no sacrafice.

 

[Ben12]

1 Tim 2:3-4

3This is good and pleasing to God our savior,
4 who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
I agree...and God calls all of us.

If we have the freewill to sin, then we must also have the freewill to do the will of God....or there is no freewill at all. If we are able to choose sin, that must mean that there is a choice involved between something sinful or something good.
Why would God force us to choose Him or to reject Him?? That can not ever result in true love, which is what He desires from us. Love is a sacrafice...Without the ability to choose, there is no sacrafice.

God has all of eternity so that all will come to the knowledge of the truth; BUT not now.

1 Tim 2:3 This is good and pleasing to God our savior, 4 who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.

But we are talking about now; and if God willed it; it would happen; but He is not willing it now. He is only calling His firstfruit/Overcomers/ Tabernacle of David and then the remainder of mankind

No we do not have freewill to salvation; JUST show me in scripture; that simple. It is our nature to sin, we were born in sin, we will die in sin until God changes that sin nature and He will.

As I just posted: Clearly it is written, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in His own order; Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor. 15:22-23). There is no doubt concerning the totality of salvation for every man-- whatever was affected by death through Adam, shall be MADE ALIVE THROUGH CHRIST. The triumph of Christ is far greater than the sin of Adam. But the point that is before us is that of TIMING-- with "every man in his own order." There is DIVINE ORDER in this NEW CREATION that is being brought forth, as God gathers one by one a people unto Himself. From Calvary until this present time, God has been working in what is rightly termed "HIS FIRSTFRUITS." We who are living at the ending of this age (web ed. note: which still could be a long ways away) are still being drawn into this "firstfruits order." But never forget, the firstfruits of a harvest are the PROMISE that all the rest of the harvest will follow in its time.

 

[heymikey80]

If we have the freewill to sin, then we must also have the freewill to do the will of God....or there is no freewill at all. If we are able to choose sin, that must mean that there is a choice involved between something sinful or something good.

Um, not to contradict your logic but Christ Himself said, "No one is good but God alone."

God gave us a law: the Ten Commandments, the Mosaic Law. Can we choose to follow it perfectly? Why would Peter deny that we could choose to follow it perfectly in Acts 15? Why would Paul deny it in Romans 3?

Why would God force us to choose Him or to reject Him?? That can not ever result in true love, which is what He desires from us. Love is a sacrafice...Without the ability to choose, there is no sacrafice.

Why do you think it's a forced move on our part? Isn't it rather a creational move? That we're built, influenced, and yes controlled and conditioned in all ways ultimately by God, to follow the path he directs? "Man makes his plans; the Lord directs his path."

 

[jmacvols]

Nope. Discord is not the same as division. "Rightly dividing the Word" is not sinful. Dividing sheep from goats is not sinful.

Division isn't sinful. It's necessary. "THERE MUST be divisions among you."

Discord according to Websters means lack of agreement or harmony, conflict, factions, strife, variance. So division, sowing discord, strife, seditions, vaiance (Gal 5:20,21) are all sinful and those they do such will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. Rom 16:17,18 those that cause division are to be marked and avoided; have fellowship withdrawn from them. They are not serving Jesus Christ but serving their own belly.

1 Cor 11:19 simply shows that division will show who are the genuine Christians and how they respond to difficult times and maintain their faith. Division will also show who is weak and will fall from their faith.

I'm going to omit the rest because they're based on so many presumptions I don't consider the conclusions to reasonably follow from the assumptions, or from Scripture. If you want a response to any of them, write them in their own, single post.



[/color]

and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the ungodle, his faith is reckoned righteousness Rom 4:5​

Not what I say. If you have an issue with Paul, say so.

I have no "issue" with Paul, for I agree with him.
Paul says obedience unto righteousness, that the Romans were justified because they obeyed from the heart Rom 6 and that Israel was lost for they had not submitted themselves or obeyed the gospel, Rom 10.

The work of Rom 4:5 is the OT work of circumcision, not obedience of the NT. You continue to take this verse out of context.

 

[jmacvols]

How can a sinner choose God?

Free will

Is the sinner not dead in trespasses and sin; how does a dead man choose?

Free will

A sinner does not ignore God’s grace; he just does not have any spiritual life to apprehend it. As I said he is dead spiritually; a dead man cannot see, hear, touch, etc. You can yell at him, kick him; he is dead it will do no good.

Gen 4:7 God plainly shows that Cain had within himself the ability to choose to do well or not do well. God even tells Cain to rule over sin. So everyman has within himself the ability to do well and rule over sin or not do well and let sin rule over him.

God is not calling all people now.

Acts 17:30; 1 Tim 2:4; Jn 3:16; Jn 4:14; Jn 11:26; Jn 12:46, Acts 2:21; Acts 10:43; Rom 10:13; etc

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Free will

Man lost his free will at the fall.

Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with {Him,} in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
Rom 6:7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
Eph 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

^Picture of man's depravity after the fall. Apart from grace man cannot and will not repent.

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Born again = regenerated

regenerated = a work of God, no man can regenerate himself.

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus,

It was all a work of God while we were spiritually dead (depraved). He regenerated us, and gave us the gift of faith by grace.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast.

There is no free will-the only saving that is done is done by God, through sovereign election. There is no other way, because within ourselves we do not have the capacity to do so. The only free will that humanity has ever seen was that of Adam, and once he inclined himself to sin, he lost that ability and became spiritually depraved. This idea is grounded in Scripture and is one of the most important doctrines to the Christian faith.

 

[jmacvols]

Man lost his free will at the fall.

No such thing as "total depravity".

Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with {Him,} in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
Rom 6:7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

In this passage of Rom 6, Paul is showing that when one obeys the gospel by being baptized, he will no longer serve sin. It takes obedience to be freed from sin (justified). One uses his free will to obey the gospel and be freed from sin or not to obey the gospel and remain a servant to sin. See verse 16, one uses his free will, he chooses whom he will obey. Verse 17 the Romans were servants of sin, but chose to obey from the heart.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
Eph 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

The words 'by nature' here can mean "a mode of acting which by long habit become nature". Strong's. The Ephesians habitual practice of sinning made sinning become part of their nature, they were not born sinners. The context tells us the Ephesians had "walked according to the course of this world" and had their "conversation (way of living) in times past in the lust of our flesh". Thus the Ephesians had long practice sinning so much that it became part of their nature.

^Picture of man's depravity after the fall. Apart from grace man cannot and will not repent.

This is not what God told Cain Gen 4:7. Cain had within himself the ability to do well or not do well. God even told Cain to rule over sin, an impossibilty if total deravity were true, but we see from God Himself it is not true.

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Born again = regenerated

regenerated = a work of God, no man can regenerate himself.

When one choses to be baptized he is then born again, Jn 3:5. Being baptized is something each person must choose for himself to obey or not.
God does not randomly choose whom He regenerates and whom He wil not regenerate and cause to be lost. Being born again is available to all that are willing to obey God's will; to Nicodemas, me and you.

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus,

It was all a work of God while we were spiritually dead (depraved). He regenerated us, and gave us the gift of faith by grace.

Eph 2:4-6 is reference to being baptized. The Ephesians were dead in their sins, but were made alive with Christ. "Hath raised us up" the same language in Rom 6 and Col 2. When one obeys in baptism he raised up with Christ, made to walk in newness of life; made alive with Christ.

From Acts 2:38, obedience comes before one receives the gift of the Holy Ghost
From Acts 5:32 one obeys before he receives the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Gal 4:6 one is a son of God before he receives the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Obedience before being born again.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast.

There is no free will-the only saving that is done is done by God, through sovereign election. There is no other way, because within ourselves we do not have the capacity to do so. The only free will that humanity has ever seen was that of Adam, and once he inclined himself to sin, he lost that ability and became spiritually depraved. This idea is grounded in Scripture and is one of the most important doctrines to the Christian faith.

Your free will allowed you to type your post here, no one "compelled " you to do so. The idea of totally depravity is totally foreign to what the bible teaches. Faith comes by hearing the word of God, Rom 10:17, it is not something forced or impaled upon man by God.

 

[cygnusx1]

Man lost his free will at the fall.

Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with {Him,} in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
Rom 6:7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
Eph 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

^Picture of man's depravity after the fall. Apart from grace man cannot and will not repent.

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Born again = regenerated

regenerated = a work of God, no man can regenerate himself.

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus,

It was all a work of God while we were spiritually dead (depraved). He regenerated us, and gave us the gift of faith by grace.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast.

There is no free will-the only saving that is done is done by God, through sovereign election. There is no other way, because within ourselves we do not have the capacity to do so. The only free will that humanity has ever seen was that of Adam, and once he inclined himself to sin, he lost that ability and became spiritually depraved. This idea is grounded in Scripture and is one of the most important doctrines to the Christian faith.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

In this passage of Rom 6, Paul is showing that when one obeys the gospel by being baptized, he will no longer serve sin. It takes obedience to be freed from sin (justified). One uses his free will to obey the gospel and be freed from sin or not to obey the gospel and remain a servant to sin. See verse 16, one uses his free will, he chooses whom he will obey. Verse 17 the Romans were servants of sin, but chose to obey from the heart.

First of all, it takes faith to be justified, as Abraham was. His faith was justified, or "perfected" by his works.

Your reference to verse 16 is not a good one. Verse 16 is speaking of the saved man. The one who is saved can either subject himself to sin or obedience. The saved man has this choice. It is an entirely different question as to the unsaved one. The unsaved one only has the choice to be obedient once he has been regenerated, as in verse 17. They were already saved when they became obedient- "you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed..."

Verse 6 talks about the old self, before we were saved, before we were crucified with Christ. We were slaves to sin. How could we free ourselves? We couldn't. We were depraved, and that is clear from the text.

The words 'by nature' here can mean "a mode of acting which by long habit become nature". Strong's. The Ephesians habitual practice of sinning made sinning become part of their nature, they were not born sinners. The context tells us the Ephesians had "walked according to the course of this world" and had their "conversation (way of living) in times past in the lust of our flesh". Thus the Ephesians had long practice sinning so much that it became part of their nature.

That sort of interpretation will not hold up.

Eph 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Go even further and see how Paul includes himself with them in verses 4 and on...he is speaking of the whole of Christians, not just the church of Ephesus. Before we were saved, we were "by nature" children of wrath. And go ahead and interpret it in your own way, as far as a habitual practice, you still get the same thing. It's just that this text is surely not specific to the Ephesians as Paul included himself with them, signifying the entire Church, and even further, all of humanity (even as the rest).

This is not what God told Cain Gen 4:7. Cain had within himself the ability to do well or not do well. God even told Cain to rule over sin, an impossibilty if total deravity were true, but we see from God Himself it is not true.

Actually, we see from Cain the exact opposite, do we not? He failed because he was depraved! He did not put faith in God in order to strengthen himself, he was selfish and relied upon his own power. Just because God told Cain to rule over sin does not mean that he even could have. The entire world was given a perfect standard to meet, and they couldn't meet it. No one could fulfill the law, it only brought the knowledge of sin and the need of a savior. It all just proves my point. Man is depraved apart from God. We have all of history to back it up. Just because God asks of something does not even mean that it was possible. It is obvious that Cain would fail without God's help. You would agree with that too, I would think.

When one choses to be baptized he is then born again, Jn 3:5.

John 3:5 does not say that at all-

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Regeneration is a rebirth of the Spirit, allowing man to place faith in Christ and become saved. Nowhere in the text you have quoted is that view nullified. If anything, it supports my view.

You are born again (regenerated) before you see the kingdom of God.

Being baptized is something each person must choose for himself to obey or not.
God does not randomly choose whom He regenerates and whom He wil not regenerate and cause to be lost. Being born again is available to all that are willing to obey God's will; to Nicodemas, me and you.

It is not God's will that all men be born again, it is His desire. One is volitional and one is emotional. He loves all men and desires that they come to Him. On the flipside, not all will come become because not all men have been called. Also, you presuppose that man can be willing to obey God. But, as we have seen, he cannot and will not. He is depraved.

He also does not "randomly" choose who will be saved. He knew His elect before the foundations of the world. That doesn't sound like random.

Eph 2:4-6 is reference to being baptized. The Ephesians were dead in their sins, but were made alive with Christ. "Hath raised us up" the same language in Rom 6 and Col 2. When one obeys in baptism he raised up with Christ, made to walk in newness of life; made alive with Christ.

What is your point? Baptize with the Holy Spirit, yes. Who does that? God. I don't get what the point is. One does not "obey" in baptism, he cannot baptize himself with the Spirit. As you say,-

"made to walk in newness of life; made alive with Christ."

by who? God.

From Acts 2:38, obedience comes before one receives the gift of the Holy Ghost
From Acts 5:32 one obeys before he receives the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Gal 4:6 one is a son of God before he receives the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Once again, you presupposing that the repentence comes from the man himself. We know that this can't be true, because man cannot repent of his own volition. He is first regenerated. That is where the repentence comes from.

Obedience before being born again.

Nope. Regeneration, which ushers in repentence and faith by God, who then adopts you as a son at justification and as a pledge gives you the Holy Spirit, and you start to be sanctfied.

Your free will allowed you to type your post here, no one "compelled " you to do so. The idea of totally depravity is totally foreign to what the bible teaches. Faith comes by hearing the word of God, Rom 10:17, it is not something forced or impaled upon man by God.

This paragraph shows me that you do not understand the doctrine of depravity, nor the Calvinist school of thought. I do have free will within God's decree. I do actually wish to do things, and do them because I want to. Of course, the only reason I want to is because it was decreed. But you won't accept that.

Besides, we are speaking of volition, as in terms of inclination of the heart and mind, not the foreordination of God. Let's stick to one subject.

 

[cygnusx1]

Your free will allowed you to type your post here, no one "compelled " you to do so. The idea of totally depravity is totally foreign to what the bible teaches. Faith comes by hearing the word of God, Rom 10:17, it is not something forced or impaled upon man by God.

faith is not something forced or impaled upon man by God , but FREE WILL is !!!

 

[jmacvols]

First of all, it takes faith to be justified, as Abraham was. His faith was justified, or "perfected" by his works.

Your reference to verse 16 is not a good one. Verse 16 is speaking of the saved man. The one who is saved can either subject himself to sin or obedience. The saved man has this choice. It is an entirely different question as to the unsaved one. The unsaved one only has the choice to be obedient once he has been regenerated, as in verse 17. They were already saved when they became obedient- "you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed..."

Abraham was justified by an obedient faith, he did not have 'faith alone'. As Paul and James both show obedience leads to justification.

All Paul is saying in Rom 6:16 is that one is a servant to whom he obeys--period. All the rest you say above you have added to this simple verse. The "unsaved" and "saved" alike can choose to obey sin unto death or obedience to righteousness. Nowhere does Paul say in this verse "the unsaved one only has the choice to be obedient once he has been regenerated.." This is your theology that you try to add to this verse.

Verse 6 talks about the old self, before we were saved, before we were crucified with Christ. We were slaves to sin. How could we free ourselves? We couldn't. We were depraved, and that is clear from the text.

Nothing remotely in all of Rom 6 says "we were depraved", again this is your theology you try to add to this chapter. Those that choose to be water baptized are the ones that crucify the old man of sin and walk in newness of life. In verse 3 Paul says "so many of us as were baptizedinto Jesus Christ"-- not any more, not any less than those baptized become free from sin (justified)

That sort of interpretation will not hold up.

Eph 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Go even further and see how Paul includes himself with them in verses 4 and on...he is speaking of the whole of Christians, not just the church of Ephesus. Before we were saved, we were "by nature" children of wrath. And go ahead and interpret it in your own way, as far as a habitual practice, you still get the same thing. It's just that this text is surely not specific to the Ephesians as Paul included himself with them, signifying the entire Church, and even further, all of humanity (even as the rest).

I gave you Strong's definition of the word 'nature', so my post will "hold up", it is "totally depravity" that fails here. No where in the entire book of Ephesians did Paul say that he or the Ephesians were born sinners. The Ephesians were dead "in your trespasses and sins", it was their sin not Adam's. Paul goes on to plainly show that the Ephesians former life-style was one of constantly sinning, they sinned so much it became part of their nature. No where in the entire NT did Jesus Christ or an inspired apostle ever say people are "born sinners".

Actually, we see from Cain the exact opposite, do we not? He failed because he was depraved! He did not put faith in God in order to strengthen himself, he was selfish and relied upon his own power. Just because God told Cain to rule over sin does not mean that he even could have. The entire world was given a perfect standard to meet, and they couldn't meet it. No one could fulfill the law, it only brought the knowledge of sin and the need of a savior. It all just proves my point. Man is depraved apart from God. We have all of history to back it up. Just because God asks of something does not even mean that it was possible. It is obvious that Cain would fail without God's help. You would agree with that too, I would think.

No where does the context say Cain was "depraved" , again that is your theology. In Gen 4:7 God used the conditional word "IF", IF thou does well IF thou doest not well. It was Cains choice to do well or not. If Cain were "depraved" why would God tell him to rule over sin? Would God not know this would be impossible if Cain were "depraved"? God knew Cain was not "depraved", that Cain could choose, therefore God told him to rule over sin.

John 3:5 does not say that at all-

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Regeneration is a rebirth of the Spirit, allowing man to place faith in Christ and become saved. Nowhere in the text you have quoted is that view nullified. If anything, it supports my view.

You are born again (regenerated) before you see the kingdom of God.

The "rebirth" consists of Spirit and water. A reference to water baptism, thus one chooses to be water baptized or not, chooses to be born again or not. Jesus commanded one to be born again, He used the words "except" and "must", so one can obey or disobey this command to be born again. Being born again is not something forced upon any one by the Lord.

It is not God's will that all men be born again, it is His desire. One is volitional and one is emotional. He loves all men and desires that they come to Him. On the flipside, not all will come become because not all men have been called. Also, you presuppose that man can be willing to obey God. But, as we have seen, he cannot and will not. He is depraved.

The invitation/call has gone out to all, but all will not answer it. There is a difference between being called and answering the call. Example, the Calvinst will look at the people at a party and say "only those present were the only ones invited". Those present were the ones that responded to the invitation, every one was invited, but only those that accepted the invitation came.--many are called but few chosen. The 'chosen few' are the ones that answered the call, the call did not go out only to the chosen few. Again, Jesus nor any apostles said people are born sinners/depraved.

He also does not "randomly" choose who will be saved. He knew His elect before the foundations of the world. That doesn't sound like random.

Before the foundation of the world God knew His people, Christians, would be saved, but God does not decide who will be a Chrsitain and who will not be, we each have to make that choice for ourselves. Nowhere does the bible say God predestined certain idividuals to be saved and predestined certain others to be lost.

What is your point? Baptize with the Holy Spirit, yes. Who does that? God. I don't get what the point is. One does not "obey" in baptism, he cannot baptize himself with the Spirit. As you say,-

by who? God.

There is no such thing today as baptism with the Holy Spirit. Water baptism is commanded so one can obey or disobey this command, the Ephesians Paul wrote to obeyed this command to be water baptized. No verse in Ephesians says there were baptized with the Holy Spirit.

They walked in newness because they had been water baptized, i.e., they obeyed.

Once again, you presupposing that the repentence comes from the man himself. We know that this can't be true, because man cannot repent of his own volition. He is first regenerated. That is where the repentence comes from.

I presupposed nothing, I showed what the verses say and they say obedience before receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38; Acts 5:32 and Gal 4:6 absolutely destroy the Calvinistic idea of 'regeneration'. You desperately try to say "man cannot repent of his own volition. He is first regenerated," Yet these three simple verses do not say this at all!!!. It's obedience before receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Repentance is something commanded, so it can be obeyed or disobeyed, and not unti it is obeyed, one cannot receive the gift of the Hoy Ghost. The order of Acts 2:38 put both repentance and baptism (obedience) before receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, just as Acts 5:32 puts obedience before it also.

Nope. Regeneration, which ushers in repentence and faith by God, who then adopts you as a son at justification and as a pledge gives you the Holy Spirit, and you start to be sanctfied.

You give no verses to prove your statement above, I have given you three [Acts 2:38; Acts 5:32 Gal 4:6] that plainly show obedience before receivng the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 5:32 does NOT say God gives the Holy Ghost to them He has chosen to regenerate. It DOES say "whom (Holy Ghost) God hath given to them that obey him.

This paragraph shows me that you do not understand the doctrine of depravity, nor the Calvinist school of thought. I do have free will within God's decree. I do actually wish to do things, and do them because I want to. Of course, the only reason I want to is because it was decreed. But you won't accept that.

Besides, we are speaking of volition, as in terms of inclination of the heart and mind, not the foreordination of God. Let's stick to one subject.

When I use scripture to refute the false idea of total depravity, the claim is made I do not understand it. I understand it, I understand it to be a false teaching that came from man, not God. Are those that are not of the "elect", the "lost", did they choose this for themselves or was this forced upon them by God? Those that are part of the "elect", did they choose this for themselves or was this forced upon them by God?

 

[jmacvols]

faith is not something forced or impaled upon man by God , but FREE WILL is !!!

Free will is something God gave to man and God allows man to exercise it.

 

[cygnusx1]

Free will is something God gave to man and God allows man to exercise it.

no ........ reading from your side of the woods I would have to say it was something forced on man , free will was not offered it was impaled !

and from my side of the woods faith is something "God gave to us" and God expects us to exercise it.


btw , do we have free will to reject free will ?

 

[heymikey80]

First of all, it takes faith to be justified, as Abraham was. His faith was justified, or "perfected" by his works.

An aside, this is a great point. The Greek word used for this is the word for "completing" or "reaching the goal."

In other words James may be describing a purpose for faith -- a purpose which does end up in good actions. cf. Eph 2:10.