The serious danger of Doctrinal error....

[cygnusx1]

the bible nowhere teaches salvation can be lost , but you insist it does . therefore where is your assurance ?

judging man's actions against God's is not even worthy of a reply!

 

[jmacvols]

the bible nowhere teaches salvation can be lost , but you insist it does . therefore where is your assurance ?

Every book in the NT, except maybe for Philemons, either gives admonishments/warnings of falling away or example of those that did fall.

God does provide security for the believer, but that security is not unconditional. From Jn 10, one has the security of being a sheep of Christ and in His fold as long as he hears and follows, verse 27. If one quits hearing and following then he forfeits that security he had.

Again, can one that is "saved" murder his family and have it not affect his salvation at all?

judging man's actions against God's is not even worthy of a reply!

It was just as simple way to show the fallacy of Calvinism.

 

[heymikey80]

He was "warped" because he murdered. I believe salvation can be lost because the bible teaches it, but I do not murder people because I believe it.

Why are you afraid to answer the question I asked?

As a Calvinist, you must believe that infants are born sinners. In 1 Sam 15:3 God wanted all Amalekites killed, including infants. So by God having these sinful infants killed, He "secured" their place in hell. On the other hand, this man "secured" his families place in heaven by killing them. Who looks bad here?

You do, by quoting an argument that Calvinists responded against four hundred years ago (and Calvin even longer ago, but we'll go with the Council of Dordt):

Hence it clearly appears that those of whom one could hardly expect it have shown no truth, equity, and charity at all in wishing to make the public believe:

--that the teaching of the Reformed churches on predestination and on the points associated with it by its very nature and tendency draws the minds of people away from all godliness and religion, is an opiate of the flesh and the devil, and is a stronghold of Satan where he lies in wait for all people, wounds most of them, and fatally pierces many of them with the arrows of both despair and self-assurance;
​

• --that this teaching makes God the author of sin, unjust, a tyrant, and a hypocrite; and is nothing but a refurbished Stoicism, Manicheism, Libertinism, and Mohammedanism;
  --that this teaching makes people carnally self-assured, since it persuades them that nothing endangers the salvation of the chosen, no matter how they live, so that they may commit the most outrageous crimes with self-assurance; and that on the other hand nothing is of use to the reprobate for salvation even if they have truly performed all the works of the saints;
  --that this teaching means that God predestined and created, by the bare and unqualified choice of his will, without the least regard or consideration of any sin, the greatest part of the world to eternal condemnation; that in the same manner in which election is the source and cause of faith and good works, reprobation is the cause of unbelief and ungodliness; that many infant children of believers are snatched in their innocence from their mothers' breasts and cruelly cast into hell so that neither the blood of Christ nor their baptism nor the prayers of the church at their baptism can be of any use to them; and very many other slanderous accusations of this kind which the Reformed churches not only disavow but even denounce with their whole heart.

There's nothing new under the sun.

It's funny: when you pointed out, anti-OSAS believers have the same vulnerabilities in their arguments as pro-OSAS believers, the resulting "arguments" simply depart from their Biblical moorings and just start attacking.

Live with it. Anti-OSAS is vulnerable to the same charge of encouragement to evil as its OSAS counterpart.

 

[cygnusx1]

Every book in the NT, except maybe for Philemons, either gives admonishments/warnings of falling away or example of those that did fall.

falling from what is the issue , some say salvation , scripture never does !

God does provide security for the believer, but that security is not unconditional. From Jn 10, one has the security of being a sheep of Christ and in His fold as long as he hears and follows, verse 27. If one quits hearing and following then he forfeits that security he had.

our security is based upon our election ; unconditional but not without the use of means.

Again, can one that is "saved" murder his family and have it not affect his salvation at all?

like Paul who had christians murdered ....... then there was King David , Joshua and Moses , hardly pacifists !

It was just as simple way to show the fallacy of Calvinism.

you wish !

 

[jmacvols]

You do, by quoting an argument that Calvinists responded against four hundred years ago (and Calvin even longer ago, but we'll go with the Council of Dordt):

Hence it clearly appears that those of whom one could hardly expect it have shown no truth, equity, and charity at all in wishing to make the public believe:​

--that the teaching of the Reformed churches on predestination and on the points associated with it by its very nature and tendency draws the minds of people away from all godliness and religion, is an opiate of the flesh and the devil, and is a stronghold of Satan where he lies in wait for all people, wounds most of them, and fatally pierces many of them with the arrows of both despair and self-assurance;​

• --that this teaching makes God the author of sin, unjust, a tyrant, and a hypocrite; and is nothing but a refurbished Stoicism, Manicheism, Libertinism, and Mohammedanism;
  --that this teaching makes people carnally self-assured, since it persuades them that nothing endangers the salvation of the chosen, no matter how they live, so that they may commit the most outrageous crimes with self-assurance; and that on the other hand nothing is of use to the reprobate for salvation even if they have truly performed all the works of the saints;
  --that this teaching means that God predestined and created, by the bare and unqualified choice of his will, without the least regard or consideration of any sin, the greatest part of the world to eternal condemnation; that in the same manner in which election is the source and cause of faith and good works, reprobation is the cause of unbelief and ungodliness; that many infant children of believers are snatched in their innocence from their mothers' breasts and cruelly cast into hell so that neither the blood of Christ nor their baptism nor the prayers of the church at their baptism can be of any use to them; and very many other slanderous accusations of this kind which the Reformed churches not only disavow but even denounce with their whole heart.

There's nothing new under the sun.

It's funny: when you pointed out, anti-OSAS believers have the same vulnerabilities in their arguments as pro-OSAS believers, the resulting "arguments" simply depart from their Biblical moorings and just start attacking.

Live with it. Anti-OSAS is vulnerable to the same charge of encouragement to evil as its OSAS counterpart.

Truth does not lead one to evil. One is lead to evil by his own faulty thinking.


The Calvinist here has not responded to the question if the man was "saved" then his murdering his family affected his salvation in no way.

 

[cygnusx1]

Truth does not lead one to evil. One is lead to evil by his own faulty thinking.


The Calvinist here has not responded to the question if the man was "saved" then his murdering his family affected his salvation in no way.

let me ask you if the guy repents , assume for a moment he does , how is his salvation affected !

 

[jmacvols]

falling from what is the issue , some say salvation , scripture never does !

Context shows one falls from salvation.
2 Pet 1:10 one never falls from what?
James 5:15 ones falls into condemnation. Can one already lost fall into condemnation? One must be is a saved condition before he can fall. Judas fell by transgression, therefore he must have been in a position where he was not transgressing in order for him to fall by transgression.

our security is based upon our election ; unconditional but not without the use of means.

The calvinist idea of election is wrong, so error can only lead to more error.

like Paul who had christians murdered ....... then there was King David , Joshua and Moses , hardly pacifists !

When "Saul" was in a lost condition he was murdering Christians. Would "Paul" after becoming a Christian be saved had he continued to murder?

Was Paul "warped" when he said about himself "to die is gain" and that being dead is "far better"? Phil 1:21,23.

 

[cygnusx1]

Context shows one falls from salvation.
2 Pet 1:10 one never falls from what?
James 5:15 ones falls into condemnation. Can one already lost fall into condemnation? One must be is a saved condition before he can fall. Judas fell by transgression, therefore he must have been in a position where he was not transgressing in order for him to fall by transgression.

no , "context" is your own superimposed views onto the texts , show any scripture where salvation , saved , or a word meaning saved appears in an apostacy verse ! you cannot !

The calvinist idea of election is wrong, so error can only lead to more error.

When "Saul" was in a lost condition he was murdering Christians. Would "Paul" after becoming a Christian be saved had he continued to murder?

true , yet you may look at David Samson etc ..... then you have to have a view of Christians in the military !

let's ask about a known case of terrible sin , the guy in 1 Corithians , that's right the guy who had sexual relations with his own mother ! was he saved , did his sin effect his salvation ....... what sayeth scripture .

Was Paul "warped" when he said about himself "to die is gain" and that being dead is "far better"? Phil 1:21,23.

no , we are better off with the Lord.

 

[cygnusx1]

1Cor.5

[1] It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
[2] And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
[3] For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
[4] In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
[5] To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
[6] Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
[7] Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
[8] Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
[9] I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
[10] Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
[11] But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
[12] For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
[13] But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.


where is the salvation of this sinner at stake , even handing him over to Satan is simply for the destruction of his flesh , that his spirit may be saved , where is salvation conditional upon good works like faith and repentance here ?

 

[heymikey80]

Truth does not lead one to evil. One is lead to evil by his own faulty thinking.

So you're saying your position is untrue in leading people to wrong? I agree.

But I disagree with the logic. Was Adam's thinking faulty? He was "made good."

The Calvinist here has not responded to the question if the man was "saved" then his murdering his family affected his salvation in no way.

If the man were justified by faith in Christ, then God would be in him, renewing his Christian walk. His reliance on Christ would have drawn him away from lying, and certainly away from murder. I'd have the List family to help me evangelize the world.

The man's actions and persistence in his view lead me to conclude John List has no such faith. He's relying on himself to "do evil, that good may come." That's abhorrent by all forms of Scriptural Christianity.

He did not rely on God which "God ordains means as well as ends." Louis Berkhof (a Calvinist)

Plus the guy who wrote my signature said something similar:

 

[jmacvols]

let me ask you if the guy repents , assume for a moment he does , how is his salvation affected !

He worketh repentance to salvation, 2 Cor 7:10.

 

[cygnusx1]

He worketh repentance to salvation, 2 Cor 7:10.

yyyyyyyyyyyyyeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssssssss , and how is his salvation affected ?


how was Peter's salvation affected when he denied Christ three times before men ?

 

[jmacvols]

no , "context" is your own superimposed views onto the texts , show any scripture where salvation , saved , or a word meaning saved appears in an apostacy verse ! you cannot !

The epistles were written to Christians, those that are in a saved position. So when an epsitle warns of falling, what can a "saved" person fall from if he cannot be lost? How could Judas fall by transgression if he were always lost? He could only fall by transgression if he were in a saved position.
2 Pet 1:10, they were to give diligence to their "election" and "calling", for "IF" [conditional word] ye do these thing ye shall never fall. What does "election" and "calling" have to with? Can one fall from their election and calling and still maintain their salvation?

true , yet you may look at David Samson etc ..... then you have to have a view of Christians in the military !

let's ask about a known case of terrible sin , the guy in 1 Corithians , that's right the guy who had sexual relations with his own mother ! was he saved , did his sin effect his salvation ....... what sayeth scripture .

If the fornicator does not repent, then he will be lost, Gal 5:19-21.

no , we are better off with the Lord.

So the Christian is better off dead?

 

[jmacvols]

yyyyyyyyyyyyyeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssssssss , and how is his salvation affected ?


how was Peter's salvation affected when he denied Christ three times before men ?

The sin of murder will cause one to lose his salvation, therefore one repents to salvation.
Now according to OSAS, if this man were "saved" how did his murdering affect his salvation, or did it affect it?


Matt 10:33.

 

[cygnusx1]

[/color]

The epistles were written to Christians, those that are in a saved position. So when an epsitle warns of falling, what can a "saved" person fall from if he cannot be lost? How could Judas fall by transgression if he were always lost? He could only fall by transgression if he were in a saved position.
2 Pet 1:10, they were to give diligence to their "election" and "calling", for "IF" [conditional word] ye do these thing ye shall never fall. What does "election" and "calling" have to with? Can one fall from their election and calling and still maintain their salvation?

the church is a mixed multitude many sneak in that merely profess Christ , Peter testifies to the truth of assurance of ELECTION will bring the ratified assurance of final perseverance , Christ saves all his sheep. those who are "lost" will hear these words , "depart from me ...... I never knew you " .

If the fornicator does not repent, then he will be lost, Gal 5:19-21.

these are works of the flesh , one might say if sinners dio not repent they will be lost , God uses means to save sinners , means are instrumental not conditiontions to salvation , but i know from experience that you believe in salvation because of our works ; Neonomianism.

So the Christian is better off dead?

in one sense , obviously . but Christians sleep and never die to be accurate.

 

[jmacvols]

So you're saying your position is untrue in leading people to wrong? I agree.

But I disagree with the logic. Was Adam's thinking faulty? He was "made good."

Truth leads a person to do right. Adam followed a lie.

If the man were justified by faith in Christ, then God would be in him, renewing his Christian walk. His reliance on Christ would have drawn him away from lying, and certainly away from murder. I'd have the List family to help me evangelize the world.

The man's actions and persistence in his view lead me to conclude John List has no such faith. He's relying on himself to "do evil, that good may come." That's abhorrent by all forms of Scriptural Christianity.

He did not rely on God which "God ordains means as well as ends." Louis Berkhof (a Calvinist)

Plus the guy who wrote my signature said something similar:

So you are saying if he was "saved" it would be impossible for him to commit the sin of murder or any sin at all, he would be perfectly sinless?

 

[cygnusx1]

The sin of murder will cause one to lose his salvation, therefore one repents to salvation.

you are faulty using a very common fallacy here , you are arguing your conclusion INTO the text! the text doesn't say the sin of murder or any sin will cause loss of salvation , sheer eisegesis on your part!

Now according to OSAS, if this man were "saved" how did his murdering affect his salvation, or did it affect it?


Matt 10:33.

OSAS asserts wrongly that God saves a person then it matters not what you do afterwards.

Perseverance of The Saints says salvation has to be evidenced and worked out for it to be REAL salvation , the difference does not iron out all cases , some saints have a disatrous fall into sin (King David) others appear to be true believers but have no real conversion experience , it is no simple matter to know the standing of someone , but God knows those who are His , and they are sealed.

 

[jmacvols]

the church is a mixed multitude many sneak in that merely profess Christ , Peter testifies to the truth of assurance of ELECTION being the ratified assurance of final perseverance , Christ saves all his sheep. those who are "lost" will hear these words , "depart from me ...... I never knew you " .

No one sneaks into the church. The Lord adds the obedient to His church, no one sneaks by Him.
Peter plainly uses the word IF when referring to election and calling.
1) so election and calling are conditional
2) the word "fall" here has to do with falling from election and calling.
3) therefore salvation is conditional, one can fall from it

Jesus saves the sheep that hear and follow him, Jn 10:27. Hearing and following are conditional. A sheep cannot stray away and still be saved.
Can one quit hearing and following and still be saved? No.

Those he never knew were the ones that did not "doeth the will of the Father".

these are works of the flesh , one might say if sinners dio not repent they will be lost , God uses means to save sinners , means are instrumental not conditiontions to salvation , but i know from experience that you believe in salvation because of our works ; Neonomianism.

I have never said "our works" can save.
What does it mean when it says fornicators will not enter the kingdom of God, Gal 5? Does that mean they will enter anyway for salvation cannot be lost?

1 Cor 5:3 Paul judged this man and said he should be put away from among you, v 13. They were to remove him from their fellowship so he might repent that he may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. This implies that if he does not quit his fornication, he will not be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. If he was to be taken away from among their fellowship, how can be acceptable for fellowship with God?

2 Cor 2:1-9 apparently he did repent.

So the Christian is better off dead?

in one sense , obviously . but Christians sleep and never die to be accurate.[/quote]

So if this guys family is "saved" then they are better off dead, yes?

But does this make his murdering them right? No

 

[jmacvols]

you are faulty using a very common fallacy here , you are arguing your conclusion INTO the text! the text doesn't say the sin of murder or any sin will cause loss of salvation , sheer eisegesis on your part!

You only see what you want to see.
According to you Rev 21:8 is wrong. A "Christian" can murder and not end up in the lake of fire. The Christian can murder, lie, be an idolater and still be saved, or is it impossible for a Chrsitian to sin?

OSAS asserts wrongly that God saves a person then it matters not what you do afterwards.

Perseverance of The Saints says salvation has to be evidenced and worked out for it to be REAL salvation , the difference does not iron out all cases , some saints have a disatrous fall into sin (King David) others appear to be true believers but have no real conversion experience , it is no simple matter to know the standing of someone , but God knows those who are His , and they are sealed.

So it seems you're saying also that if one that is a "true" Christian cannot sin, he is perfectly sinless?

If this man were a "True" Christian it would have been impossible for him to murder his family or commit any sin for that matter?

 

[cygnusx1]

No one sneaks into the church. The Lord adds the obedient to His church, no one sneaks by Him.
Peter plainly uses the word IF when referring to election and calling.
1) so election and calling are conditional
2) the word "fall" here has to do with falling from election and calling.
3) therefore salvation is conditional, one can fall from it

Jesus saves the sheep that hear and follow him, Jn 10:27. Hearing and following are conditional. A sheep cannot stray away and still be saved.
Can one quit hearing and following and still be saved? No.

Those he never knew were the ones that did not "doeth the will of the Father".

the "if" of Peter is to do with our assurance , if we make our calling and election sure we will never fall




have you any idea why !


it's the most stupid advice to give to others that if they want never to fall they must make their calling and election sure , IF THE ELECT CAN FALL AWAY !!!!




, God already knows those that are His , He elected them , there is no if with God , and the gifts and calling of God are without repentance !
Gal 3: 6


New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
False Christians were brought in. They slipped in as spies to learn about the freedom Christ Jesus gives us. They hoped to find a way to control us.

King James Bible
And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

I have never said "our works" can save.
What does it mean when it says fornicators will not enter the kingdom of God, Gal 5? Does that mean they will enter anyway for salvation cannot be lost?

God knows how to deal with his own , handing men over to Satan for the destruction of their flesh is always an option , and salvation clearly isn't at stake ... which must dissapoint you.

1 Cor 5:3 Paul judged this man and said he should be put away from among you, v 13. They were to remove him from their fellowship so he might repent that he may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. This implies that if he does not quit his fornication, he will not be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. If he was to be taken away from among their fellowship, how can be acceptable for fellowship with God?

no it implies his body will be destroyed but in order that his spirit may be SAVED , again no loss of salvation even if the guy is killed !

2 Cor 2:1-9 apparently he did repent.

God is good !

in one sense , obviously . but Christians sleep and never die to be accurate.

So if this guys family is "saved" then they are better off dead, yes?

But does this make his murdering them right? No

bad logic , shall we sin that grace should abound ? God forbid !