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The serious danger of Doctrinal error....

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cygnusx1

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This is a report I have been looking for for two years , I posted it way back and couldn't find it till now.
May you read this with a sober and discerning mind.



"John List was the subject of a nationwide manhunt after the murder of his family in 1971. He was not arrested until 18 years later. (ABCNEWS.com) Interview With a Murderer
John List Killed His Entire Family in 1971



Feb. 20 — Thirty years ago, accountant John List methodically murdered his whole family — his mother, his wife, and their three children. He says he wanted to spare them the shame of losing their New Jersey mansion and to make sure they got to heaven.



Now, in his first-ever public comments about the 1971 crime, the 76-year-old former Sunday school teacher says he is waiting to be reunited with them in the hereafter.

"I feel when we get to heaven we won't worry about these earthly things. They'll either have forgiven me or won't realize, you know, what happened," List told Downtown's Connie Chung in an interview at the New Jersey State Prison in Trenton, where he is serving five life sentences. "I'm sure that if we recognize each other that we'll like each other's company just as we did here, when times were better."

List left a confession letter at the scene, so police had little doubt as to who was responsible for the killings. But he fled to Colorado, assumed a new name and remarried, managing to elude a nationwide manhunt for 18 years. He was arrested in 1989 after a former neighbor recognized him from a profile on the syndicated TV show America's Most Wanted. He was sentenced to five consecutive life prison terms.

List, who says he remains deeply religious today, acknowledges that his crimes violated one of the Ten Commandments: "Thou shalt not kill."

"I knew it was wrong. As I was doing it I knew it was wrong," he said.

But, during a four-hour interview, he sought to explain how worries that financial hardship would split his family and turn them away from their faith forced him to make a tough decision. "I finally decided the only way to save them from that was to kill them," he said.



Bank Vice President and Sunday School Teacher

In 1965, when List and his family moved to affluent Westfield, N.J., he seemed to be a model of suburban success and propriety. He was vice president and comptroller of a nearby bank, and his family lived in an 18-room mansion with marble fireplaces and an elegant ballroom. They attended church each week with List's mother, a strict Lutheran who lived with them.

But then his life began to crumble. He lost the bank job, and a succession of subsequent jobs. By 1971, he was still leaving for work every morning, but — unknown to his family — he was unemployed and unable to pay the bills. He spent his days at the train station reading, napping, and wondering how to get his family out of their financial mess.

He says today he felt he was letting the family down. "I grew up with the idea that you should provide for your family and to do that you had to be a success in the job that you had — or you're a failure, and that was not a good thing to be," he said. Finally, with the prospect of foreclosure threatening to expose his financial failure, List made his terrible decision to kill his family — but not himself. "It was my belief that if you kill yourself, you won't go to heaven," he said. "So eventually I got to the point where I felt that I could kill them. Hopefully they would go to heaven, and then maybe I would have a chance to later confess my sins to God and get forgiveness."




http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/...nt_020220.html



Here is a man convinced that there is no security in salvation , and in order to "secure" his familys salvation , he concluded that he must slaughter them while they were still in the faith !
The tradgedy of false doctrine exposed.
 

AndOne

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I think the guy is either insane or utterly evil and is looking for any excuse to murder.

Don't know if you can apply false doctrine to this situation. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. There was a presbyterian in my area here that decided to shoot up an Amish school a couple of months ago so I'm not too cool with applying these doctrinal errors to murderous madmen... They did what they did because they are evil - plain and simple...
 
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cygnusx1

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I think the guy is either insane or utterly evil and is looking for any excuse to murder.

Don't know if you can apply false doctrine to this situation. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. There was a presbyterian in my area here that decided to shoot up an Amish school a couple of months ago so I'm not too cool with applying these doctrinal errors to murderous madmen... They did what they did because they are evil - plain and simple...


sure he was evil , but he was also rational , he said he hoped killing them would save them.

The arguement that brought out this quote 2 years ago was someone was attempting to rationally make a case for abortion to SECURE redemption! :sick:
 
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AndOne

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The arguement that brought out this quote 2 years ago was someone was attempting to rationally make a case for abortion to SECURE redemption! :sick:

Now that is insane!

Playing "devil's advocate" - the argument could be made that he believed in eternal security - which is how he could justify killing his family and then not being held accountable for it. I'd be carefull here Cyg...
 
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cygnusx1

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Now that is insane!

Playing "devil's advocate" - the argument could be made that he believed in eternal security - which is how he could justify killing his family and then not being held accountable for it. I'd be carefull here Cyg...

I honestly cannot see that B B , the guy twice said that fearing that they would leave the faith he decided to ensure that they must never do that , for their salvation by implication was so precarious .

I don't think this case compares at all with the case you mentioned above . Clearly some are desperate to find security in salvation and rationally argue that this method can secure it.

If he had been taught salvation properly he would have had great confidence in God's care , and he would have known his family would still make it to heaven without this dire pragmatic solution. :(

this is a guy who used to be a Sunday school teacher.
 
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Van

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RT advocates will use guilt by association arguments to support their doctrine. In this case, a killer rationalizes his action with a perverse doctrine, so anyone who does not hold to RT is just as off track as the killer. Bogus to the core. It's like saying all Baptists are in danger of hyper-calvinism doctrine because the Primative Baptists have a wrong view of doctrine. These sort of guilt by association arguments are not useful.
 
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AndOne

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RT advocates will use guilt by association arguments to support their doctrine.

Well - I certainly don't - which is the reason why I was playing "Devil's Advocate" in this case. Just as it isn't fair to say that all Baptists are in danger of hyper-calvinism because of primitive baptists - so is it unfair to accuse all RT advocates of using guilt by association...

Cyg - Van's reaction is just one example of why this thread makes me a bit uncomfortable. tis okay - I still love ya, bro!
 
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cygnusx1

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RT advocates will use guilt by association arguments to support their doctrine. In this case, a killer rationalizes his action with a perverse doctrine, so anyone who does not hold to RT is just as off track as the killer. Bogus to the core. It's like saying all Baptists are in danger of hyper-calvinism doctrine because the Primative Baptists have a wrong view of doctrine. These sort of guilt by association arguments are not useful.

those who can see it will see you have made yourself guilty of the same charge you here level against others , right here right now !! :D


"RT advocates ........

when it is crystal clear that an RT advocate in this thread doesn't hold my view , but hey , just carry on your own "guilt by association" trip .........


Matthew 7:5 :)


yes guilt by association indeed !
 
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nobdysfool

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RT advocates will use guilt by association arguments to support their doctrine. In this case, a killer rationalizes his action with a perverse doctrine, so anyone who does not hold to RT is just as off track as the killer. Bogus to the core. It's like saying all Baptists are in danger of hyper-calvinism doctrine because the Primative Baptists have a wrong view of doctrine. These sort of guilt by association arguments are not useful.
Neither is your constant bleating against RT. We all know you hate RT. You don't need to remind us. Your time would be better spent re-reading Ryft's posts to you in the other thread, wherein he completely destroyed your false doctrines of election. You have much to learn from him.
 
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cygnusx1

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Neither is your constant bleating against RT. We all know you hate RT. You don't need to remind us. Your time would be better spent re-reading Ryft's posts to you in the other thread, wherein he completely destroyed your false doctrines of election. You have much to learn from him.


yes , I miss Ryft's posts :D

God bless Ryft !!!!!
 
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jmacvols

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Here is a man convinced that there is no security in salvation , and in order to "secure" his familys salvation , he concluded that he must slaughter them while they were still in the faith !
The tradgedy of false doctrine exposed.

Certainly you are not trying to use a murderer to prove the false idea that one cannot lose their salvation? The bible certainly does not teach OSAS, so use a murderer to prove it?

The true 'tradgedy' here is that there are those that think one can murder his family and not lose his salvation in doing such a horrific thing.
 
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cygnusx1

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Certainly you are not trying to use a murderer to prove the false idea that one cannot lose their salvation?

The true 'tradgedy' here is that there are those that think one can murder his family and not lose his salvation in doing such a horrific thing.

the tragic story came about due to financial problems and a real problem with this Sunday school teachers understanding of salvation , he certainly thought he could secure his families salvation , he seems to have been infected with the loss of salvation DOGMA!
 
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jmacvols

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the tragic story came about due to financial problems and a real problem with this Sunday school teachers understanding of salvation , he certainly thought he could secure his families salvation , he seems to have been infected with the loss of salvation DOGMA!

The guy was right that salvation can be lost, but his murdering people does not change or make wrong what the bible teaches about conditional salvation.

Again, the true tradgedy here is that there are those that think one can murder his family and not lose his salvation for doing such a thing.
 
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cygnusx1

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The guy was right that salvation can be lost, but his murdering people does not change or make wrong what the bible teaches about conditional salvation.

Again, the true tradgedy here is that there are those that think one can murder his family and not lose his salvation for doing such a thing.

if he had been taught properly he would have known salvation cannot be lost , so he would not have attempted to scure his families salvation with murder . Also he would have trusted that The Lord is in control of all these circumstances , that all things work together for our good , alas , he seems dogmatized into no assurance of salvation and no assurance that God is Sovereign .......... such are the outcome of lies.

he probably also had it drummed into him that he had absolute free-will - so he possibly felt empowered even encouraged to do EVIL!
 
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jmacvols

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if he had been taught properly he would have known salvation cannot be lost , so he would not have attempted to scure his families salvation with murder . Also he would have trusted that The Lord is in control of all these circumstances , that all things work together for our good , alas , he seems dogmatized into no assurance of salvation and no assurance that God is Sovereign .......... such are the outcome of lies.

he probably also had it drummed into him that he had absolute free-will - so he possibly felt empowered even encouraged to do EVIL!

Your trying to prove the false teachings of OSAS by using a murderer, not by using the bible!! His committing the sin of murder does not change the fact the bible teaches salvation is conditional.

If salvation cannot be lost, and this guy was "saved", then you must believe his murdering his family did not affect his salvation one whit. Yet Rev 21:8 says murderers will be in the lake of fire.
 
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cygnusx1

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Your trying to prove the false teachings of OSAS by using a murderer, not by using the bible!! His committing the sin of murder does not change the fact the bible teaches salvation is conditional.

If salvation cannot be lost, and this guy was "saved", then you must believe his murdering his family did not affect his salvation one whit. Yet Rev 21:8 says murderers will be in the lake of fire.

that will not work jvol

I AM NOT TRYING TO PROVE THE SECURITY OF SALVATION BY THIS MURDERER , just showing the causative link between his I-ology and his actions , twice he states his family are now secure .......... pity he knew nothing of Eternal Security in Christ!
 
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jmacvols

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that will not work jvol

I AM NOT TRYING TO PROVE THE SECURITY OF SALVATION BY THIS MURDERER , just showing the causative link between his I-ology and his actions , twice he states his family are now secure .......... pity he knew nothing of Eternal Security in Christ!

You're impling that because this guy believed salvation can be lost and he murdered his family because he believed this, that this makes conditional salvation wrong. If his family were in a 'saved' position when he murdered them, then they will be saved, but this does not make the sin of murder right nor does it make conditional salvation wrong.

Again, if this guy were 'saved', do you believe his murdering his family did not affect his salvation one whit?
 
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cygnusx1

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You're impling that because this guy believed salvation can be lost and he murdered his family because he believed this, that this makes conditional salvation wrong. If his family were in a 'saved' position when he murdered them, then they will be saved, but this does not make the sin of murder right nor does it make conditional salvation wrong.

Again, if this guy were 'saved', do you believe his murdering his family did not affect his salvation one whit?


i am implying that this guy had a damaged and warped understanding of salvation , which later co-incided with his dreadful answer to financial ruin!
 
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jmacvols

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i am implying that this guy had a damaged and warped understanding of salvation , which later co-incided with his dreadful answer to financial ruin!

He was "warped" because he murdered. I believe salvation can be lost because the bible teaches it, but I do not murder people because I believe it.

Why are you afraid to answer the question I asked?

As a Calvinist, you must believe that infants are born sinners. In 1 Sam 15:3 God wanted all Amalekites killed, including infants. So by God having these sinful infants killed, He "secured" their place in hell. On the other hand, this man "secured" his families place in heaven by killing them. Who looks bad here?
 
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