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I wasn't trying to say that no one will be lost, although I hope that no one is....I was trying to prove the point that God does not will for us to be lost like those who believe in double predestination.That is the same type of argument the "universalists" use.
God Bless
Till all are one.
If you give someone a gift and they reject it...how can they then possess it?
the same applies to salvation...it's a gift that must be accepted.
God created us with freewill. We make our own decisions in this life. We can accept God or we can reject Him...it is up to us. He freely gives us all the grace necessary for our salvation, but it is up to us to receive it.not all gifts have to be accepted , my inheritence was mine without my consent , and the idea of rejecting it was never ever under consideration !
God created us with freewill. We make our own decisions in this life. We can accept God or we can reject Him...it is up to us. He freely gives us all the grace necessary for our salvation, but it is up to us to receive it.
Would it do any good if you had a talent (a special gift) to play the piano and did not play or put it to use?
Why is Jesus saying differently? Or what do you mean by "church"? Lk 9:49-50.
heymikey said:Well, Romans 6 simply states this as usual (and that of the Romans). I agree with that. Faith normally causes obedient works (and imperfectly, 1 Cor 13). But those works don't save. The faith does.
heymikey said:In Rom 10 "Obedience to the Gospel" here is not actually performing works. Here the term is for credulous submission to the message: "believe". It does typically result in actions that are obedient, yes. But that's not specifically what the word demands. Obedience is not always works.
heymikey said:If you obey a summons to rest, is that work?
heymikey said:Paul isn't condemning them for having divisions, Paul is condemning them for pressing their divisions into breaking up the congregation. "You must have divisions to tell who's approved among you." If that's the condemnation: you're condemned. So am I.
heymikey said:I would say the verse is talking about specific doctrines that destroy faith. Faith is critical. Doctrines that destroy faith, they are also critical. But they are few: monotheism, Lordship, Salvation by the Messiah through faith, not works.
Unfortunately, that last doctrine ....
heymikey said:Well, that "if" wasn't there when Peter wrote it. A closer translation clarifies what's going on here:be diligent to ensure your calling and choice, for these things doing, ye may never stumbleI suspect you can see what the position is, taking the sentence down to its actual grammar. Peter's telling people: ensure your calling and choice: if you are doing these things you're not stumbling [so that ensures that you have a calling and choice].
This verse actually points up the clear distinction of Calvinism: "God ordains means as well as ends". By doing these things the Christian comes into conformity with his calling and choice just as Calvin said.
heymikey said:I'm saying that the Gospel isn't founded on our works. Works are not faith, nor part of faith. "not of works" Ep 2:9. "the one who does not work" Rom 4:4.
heymikey said:The Gospel results in "for works", as a result of our rescue, not a cause. The paramedic doesn't demand the fire victim walk out of the fire on their own two feet. But the therapist will later, at the right time.
heymikey said:And my point was that the reality of the situation is not nearly as far different as you want it to be. Satan often twists truths into a lie.
John didn't contradict himself. "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." 1 John 1:8-10
"you have been saved ... not of yourselves ... not out of works" Ep 2:8-9
heymikey said:John is not defining righteousness as doing righteousness. Paul flatly attacked such a position, John isn't reintroducing it, and John would contradict himself to even attempt such a statement.
John is saying the people who are doing righteousness externally can be considered the people who are righteous internally; and vice versa. There's no "doing right makes him right". No, the one who is righteous has a pattern (and not a complete pattern) of doing right things.
John's using a continuous sense of the verbs in 1 John. "The one who's doing righteousness, he's being righteous."
heymikey said:Here's a quick test to show whether you've caught this continuous sense. John isn't contradicting himself by saying these two things. Do you recognize why?If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 Jn 1:8No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 Jn 3:9
ESV adds the continuing sense to 1 John 3:9:No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 1 Jn 3:9
heymikey said:According to Scripture, the first part's right; the second part's wrong. We're judged unrighteous by our works; but we're judged righteous through faith in God. Faith causes works; but works don't cause righteousness or faith.By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead. Heb 11:4Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous. Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you. 1 Jn 3:12-13
The church is the body of Christ, it comes from "ekklesia" meaning the called out. Those that obey the gospel are added by the Lord to his church, his body and become part of the called out. Only those that are in the church, the Lord's body, will be saved. And the Lord has just but one church, Mt 16:18-"my church". "My" shows possession of the church belongs to Christ and "church" is singular, the Lord does not have various "churches" with conflicting doctrines.
Rom 6:17,18 shows that their justification came as a result of their having "obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine", not by faith alone.
ROFL! You don't hold a candle to the Jewish people's actual practicing of the commandments of God, even at this stage in history. "For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Mt 5:19Rom 10:1-3- Paul's concern was that Israel be saved, for they had a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge, verse 2. Verse 3 shows they were not saved because the went about to establish their own righteousness (works of merit) nad had not submitted themselves (had not obeyed) the righteousness (commandments) of God. Israel was lost for they had not obeyed the commandmetns of God.
Then why did the Apostle say rest? "Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it." Heb 4:1Not sure what you mean here, but he Lord requires obedience to the gospel to be saved, not rest.
"There must be divisions among you" 1 Cor 11:19a That statement is not a condemnation. It's either an imperitive or a declaration. "in order that those who are approved among you may be recognized." 1 Cor 11:19b The divisions exist so you can learn to recognize those approved. With no division there is no discernment.Paul most certainly is condemning them for the division, you must read it again. 1 Cor 1:10-13 that there be "no divisions among you" and they were to "speak the same thing".
Of course someone can be in error and still be saved. Wouldn't you say sin is an error? Everyone who's saved is a sinner, too.Rev 2:14-16 plainly shows that following the wrong doctrine will cause one to lose his salvation. You're essentially trying to argue that one can be in error and still be saved.
Translators translate the sense of words. They don't translate every attribute of the original language. It's wrong to assume they do. It's wrong to attribute to translators something that they didn't intend to do.The KJV, NKJV, ESV, RSV,ASV among many, many more versions contain the word "if". Are you saying all these scholars/translators are wrong?
But falling into sin isn't falling out of salvation.Peter is saying things must be done to make their election and calling sure, implying that if these things are not done they will fall. The phrase "if ye do" is in the present tense which means the doing must be ongoing and continuous and if one stops doing he can fall.
Subjunctives refer to the conditions in the context when they exist.The phrase 'ye shall never fall" is in the subjunctive mood which does not show a guarantee. It shows possiblity or potential that the action described may or may not happen depending upon circumstances, those circumstances being doing these things or not doing these things.
I agree that the gospel is not founded upon OUR works.
"not of works" -- see prior response.We must obey the gospel, that is, obey what the Lord said to do (obedience) and not do our own works (works of merit). We will will be lost for not obeying the gospel, 2 Thess 1:8.
The gospel plainly puts obedience before salvation, Mk 16:16, both belief (obedience) and baptism (obedience) come before salvation.
I have never said one is saved by doing his own works of merit but by doing righteousness (God's will).
These are simply allusions to try to get Scripture to say something ... that it doesn't say, and that it actually contradicts explicitly in the same letters (Rom 4:1-5, 3:21-31, 1 John 1:8-10). Certainly Paul and John weren't writing incoherently in each letter? No. Your theology must comply with Scripture, not pick one idea you can plug into 3 verses, at the expense of all the rest of what Scripture says.Doing righteousness is obeying God's will, Paul plainly teaches the same thing, Rom 6:16 obedience unto righteousness.
John says he that doeth righteousenss (obedience) is righteous.
Paul says obedience unto righteousness.
Both John and Paul say exactly the same thing.
Sorry, that's a logical misstep in your argument. The contrapositive is the true reverse assertion -- not the double-contrary.1 Jn 3:7 "he that doeth" is in the present tense meaning that the 'doing' must be ongoing and continuous and if one stops 'doing' he will no longer be righteous.
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You're proving my point that salvation can be lost. If the continuous sense (present tense) ceases salvation is lost.
Then by your view we have nothing left, because John plainly shows we all sin (1 Jn 1:8). By your view, we're dead.John plainly shows that the works one do are what makes him either righteous or evil. That is how God looks at it.
Of course righteous acts show (witness) your righteousness. But obedience doesn't cause righteousness.You proved this by Heb 11:4. Abel offered unto God--(he obeyed) by which (his obedience in offering to God), he obtained witness that he was righteous. Had Abel not offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice, that is, had Abel not obeyed God's will, he would not have been righteous.
Nah. It plainly takes a change of heart to obey. It also takes a change of heart to be declared righteous. They're associated. They're not causal.It plainly takse doing (obeying) to be righteous. Again in Rom 6 Paul says one obeys unto righteousness.
The trouble is that no one naturally accepts this gift.If you give someone a gift and they reject it...how can they then possess it?
the same applies to salvation...it's a gift that must be accepted.
But God does condemn some people to be lost. How is that not His will? And God withholds things from some people, that if given fully would save them.I wasn't trying to say that no one will be lost, although I hope that no one is....I was trying to prove the point that God does not will for us to be lost like those who believe in double predestination.
there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. 1 Cor 11:19John answered, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not follow with us." But Jesus said to him, "Do not stop him, for the one who is not against you is for you." Lk 9:49-50
heymickey said:Btw, "faith alone" is in a specific sense, not in all senses:[Faith] is not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but works by love. Westminster Confession, 11.2The constant aberration of the phrase "faith alone" would be as absurd as applying "the church alone" to the corporate world. Or to your family.
heymickey said:Show me where righteousness is a result of obedience here? You assert it, but I'm missing it.
heymickey said:ROFL! You don't hold a candle to the Jewish people's actual practicing of the commandments of God, even at this stage in history. "For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Mt 5:19
heymickey said:Then why did the Apostle say rest? "Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it." Heb 4:1
heymickey said:"There must be divisions among you" 1 Cor 11:19a That statement is not a condemnation. It's either an imperitive or a declaration. "in order that those who are approved among you may be recognized." 1 Cor 11:19b The divisions exist so you can learn to recognize those approved. With no division there is no discernment.
Of course someone can be in error and still be saved. Wouldn't you say sin is an error? Everyone who's saved is a sinner, too.
heymickey said:"While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Rom 5:8
"... God came to rescue sinners, of whom I am the first." Paul, 1 Tim 1:15
Are you saying Paul wasn't saved?
heymickey said:Translators translate the sense of words. They don't translate every attribute of the original language. It's wrong to assume they do. It's wrong to attribute to translators something that they didn't intend to do.
For example: far, far fewer translations put "if" in Heb 6:6. I believe KJV, NKJV does?
The Greek doesn't have it. Stephanus doesn't have it. Westcott-Hort doesn't have it. Are you saying your theology relies on 17-20th C. English translators instead of what the Apostles actually wrote?
heymickey said:But falling into sin isn't falling out of salvation.No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 8:37-39
heymickey said:Subjunctives refer to the conditions in the context when they exist.
heymickey said:Oh, and another point: the translation you're using, "shall", conflicts with your accurate point that this is a subjunctive mood. Your translators are contradicting you. KJV, NKJV, ASV, RSV use "shall". So you've confirmed my point above.
heymickey said:"not of works" Ep 2:9
heymickey said:For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:2-5"not of works" -- see prior response.
heymickey said:The command is to quit working for your salvation. How do you obey such a command by performing works like baptism as a requirement?
heymickey said:These are simply allusions to try to get Scripture to say something ... that it doesn't say, and that it actually contradicts explicitly in the same letters (Rom 4:1-5, 3:21-31, 1 John 1:8-10). Certainly Paul and John weren't writing incoherently in each letter? No. Your theology must comply with Scripture, not pick one idea you can plug into 3 verses, at the expense of all the rest of what Scripture says.
heymickey said:It's clear John says we all sin and we all must own our sins. As sin is not doing righteousness, either John is talking incoherently or he means something specific about associating righteous acts with righteousness. And it's not what you've said.
heymickey said:Sorry, that's a logical misstep in your argument. The contrapositive is the true reverse assertion -- not the double-contrary.
And your stretching it to salvation is not even what Peter said.
heymickey said:Then by your view we have nothing left, because John plainly shows we all sin (1 Jn 1:8). By your view, we're dead.
heyickey said:But I'm alive, because I know that John is talking about how to identify people who are righteous -- not about how righteousness is caused.
Of course righteous acts show (witness) your righteousness. But obedience doesn't cause righteousness.
heymickey said:Nah.
heymickey said:It plainly takes a change of heart to obey. It also takes a change of heart to be declared righteous. They're associated. They're not causal.
So you prove that division is sinful. From the OT, those that sow discord among brethren are an abomination to God.
Regardless of what you say, the bible makes it clear that obedience is what makes one righteous. No verse says "do nothing and thou shalt be righteous".
Free will is not an illusion. We make choices to do things everyday...we can choose to allow things to influence us to choose something, but the decision is ultimately of our own will.free will is mostly an illusion , there are many factors to why people choose what they choose , no one chooses in a vacuum.
You mean God won't force us into Hell if we don't want to go? Woohoo! Oh, wait, I've got to find that from God, not StTherese!God does not force His will on us...that's how....His will is that we ALL will be saved...
If making choices is all you mean by free will, even Calvin's said, "no biggee". we're normally addressing a very different thing: whether the origins of our choices originate solely from our wills. We all think we make choices from our wills. The alternative is stoic fatalism.Free will is not an illusion. We make choices to do things everyday...we can choose to allow things to influence us to choose something, but the decision is ultimately of our own will.
Actually, that doesn't come from me, but from the Church that Christ established....You mean God won't force us into Hell if we don't want to go? Woohoo! Oh, wait, I've got to find that from God, not StTherese!
Actually, that doesn't come from me, but from the Church that Christ established....
1 Tim 2 1 1 First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, 2 for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. 3 This is good and pleasing to God our savior, 4 who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
Well then Christ needs to bring them on the carpet.Actually, that doesn't come from me, but from the Church that Christ established....
1 Tim 2 1 1 First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, 2 for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. 3 This is good and pleasing to God our savior, 4 who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
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