the self replicating watch argument

[SavedByGrace3]

Being a Christian Evolutionist, I would say God is found in the exceptions to evolution. All those pesky arguments about initial cause, timing, mega changes.
I just think He designed the earth to "bring forth" life and to allow for incremental change of species to adapt to incremental changes in the environment. But as seen in the last ice age, animals cannot evolve fast enough to adapt to radical changes. They just cease to exist. This is not "natural selection," it is "natural rejection."
I just believe that when a species hits a roadblock, such as an asteroid strike, an ice age (or ice ball). or an planet-wide methane release... then God can certainly intervene and provide "upgrades" for survival. Also, if He wants to change a species to go in a different direction... He can certainly twiddle a few genes one way or another. So I believe God created earth to be a "life machine" both building and upgrading species level life to both generate from the water and dirt, and to upgrade as needed to adjust to the changing environment.
So when I say that God is found in the exceptions to evolution, I mean that those exceptions that many creationists cite... inexplicable evidence nobody, not even the evolutionists can explain.
God is the explanation. Those are His fingerprints.

 

[xianghua]

2) The reason comparing an electric motor and flagellum is a false equivalence fallacy is because the origin of the electric motor has absolutely nothing to do with the origin of the flagellum. They are completely different types of objects and completely independent.

a car and a watch are also different types of objects. and yet you conclude they are the product of design. right?

 

[Speedwell]

a car and a watch are also different types of objects. and yet you conclude they are the product of design. right?

Because no one has ever seen a car or a watch which was not man made.

 

[pitabread]

a car and a watch are also different types of objects. and yet you conclude they are the product of design. right?

Sure, but my conclusion for one object is not dependent nor based on the other object.

 

[DogmaHunter]

so the existence of a motor prove that a motor can evolve naturally? ok.

Your continued use of loaded terms (equivocation fallacy), is not going to advance your case and only hurts your credibility further (not that you have any credibility left by now though)

 

[DogmaHunter]

Is there a way to tell?

Yes. DNA.

 

[DogmaHunter]

a claim that base on belief.

No. Evidence and observation.

 

[Jimmy D]

Being a Christian Evolutionist, I would say God is found in the exceptions to evolution. All those pesky arguments about initial cause, timing, mega changes.
I just think He designed the earth to "bring forth" life and to allow for incremental change of species to adapt to incremental changes in the environment. But as seen in the last ice age, animals cannot evolve fast enough to adapt to radical changes. They just cease to exist. This is not "natural selection," it is "natural rejection."

The bolded part sounds like a sensible approach, I find it strange that creationists don't take this position.

I just believe that when a species hits a roadblock, such as an asteroid strike, an ice age (or ice ball). or an planet-wide methane release... then God can certainly intervene and provide "upgrades" for survival. Also, if He wants to change a species to go in a different direction... He can certainly twiddle a few genes one way or another. So I believe God created earth to be a "life machine" both building and upgrading species level life to both generate from the water and dirt, and to upgrade as needed to adjust to the changing environment.

Fair enough, I would suggest that there is no evidence to that this divine tinkering is necessary or that the diversity of life can be explained by natural processes.

So when I say that God is found in the exceptions to evolution, I mean that those exceptions that many creationists cite... inexplicable evidence nobody, not even the evolutionists can explain.
God is the explanation. Those are His fingerprints

I'm not looking to argue with you but I'm curious as to what you're referring to here?

 

[tas8831]

why not consider the flagellum as a motor? after all, even scientists call it a motor.

Scientists also call ID and creationism pseudoscience. Aren't appeals to authority such so convenient? Almost as convenient as argument via definition.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Scientists also call ID and creationism pseudoscience.

Didn't you know?
What scientists say is only relevant, if @xianghua feels like it agrees with his beliefs.

 

[tas8831]

Didn't you know?
What scientists say is only relevant, if @xianghua feels like it agrees with his beliefs.

Shocking. Seems to be something of a trend.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Shocking. Seems to be something of a trend.

Indeed. The creationist trend.

The only science that matters, is the science that they feel they can marry with their religious beliefs. The rest is a "conspiracy".

 

[Bungle_Bear]

a car and a watch are also different types of objects. and yet you conclude they are the product of design. right?

You are very fond of stating that "English is not your native". Here's a great opportunity for you to learn something new and useful. Please take a pause from posting here and go and look up the meanings of these words:

1. Analogy
2. Homology
3. Similarity
4. Equivalence
5. Homogeneity

When you have done so please demonstrate your understanding of the terms. Then please apply your new found understanding to any future posts.

 

[PsychoSarah]

i dont see they use the word "analogy" here:

The bacterial flagella motor. - PubMed - NCBI

The bacterial flagellar motor: structure and function of a complex molecular machine. - PubMed - NCBI

http://www.cell.com/trends/microbiology/fulltext/S0966-842X(14)00268-6

-_- it's not explicitly stated to be an analogy when neurons are compared to toilets, either. Dude, my major is in biology, I know that any resemblance flagella have with motors is purely superficial. The parts of a flagella actually change shape to cause it to move, and they change shape as a result of molecules becoming bound and unbound to them repeatedly. This is not how a car engine works at all.

Also, you fail to consider that one of the definitions of a "motor" is "giving, imparting, or producing motion or action." And what do you know, despite being vastly different, a car motor and a flagellum do both of these things. It can also reference the moving parts. I think we both agree that flagella have moving parts, and that they produce motion in bacteria. Nothing about that definition says that they have to work like the motors of cars, though, and what do you know, they don't.

But, hey, I guess neurons are toilets to you.

 

[dad]

Yes. DNA.

Dna from that time is not available. To look at current nature DNA and imagine that this tells us about the unknown past genetic realities is religion.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Dna from that time is not available. To look at current nature DNA and imagine that this tells us about the unknown past genetic realities is religion.

No. DNA is used to determine ancestry (and common ancestry) all the time.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Dna from that time is not available. To look at current nature DNA and imagine that this tells us about the unknown past genetic realities is religion.

Why wouldn't current DNA tell us about ancestry?

DNA from living things regularly shows to be organized in nested hierarchies. Nothing else in nature does this. The best explanation for this is common ancestry. How do you explain it?

See Nested Hierarchy: Evidence for Evolution

 

[xianghua]

Being a Christian Evolutionist, I would say God is found in the exceptions to evolution. All those pesky arguments about initial cause, timing, mega changes.
I just think He designed the earth to "bring forth" life and to allow for incremental change of species to adapt to incremental changes in the environment. But as seen in the last ice age, animals cannot evolve fast enough to adapt to radical changes. They just cease to exist. This is not "natural selection," it is "natural rejection."
I just believe that when a species hits a roadblock, such as an asteroid strike, an ice age (or ice ball). or an planet-wide methane release... then God can certainly intervene and provide "upgrades" for survival. Also, if He wants to change a species to go in a different direction... He can certainly twiddle a few genes one way or another. So I believe God created earth to be a "life machine" both building and upgrading species level life to both generate from the water and dirt, and to upgrade as needed to adjust to the changing environment.
So when I say that God is found in the exceptions to evolution, I mean that those exceptions that many creationists cite... inexplicable evidence nobody, not even the evolutionists can explain.
God is the explanation. Those are His fingerprints.

ok. but what is the evidence that creatures indeed changed to another creatures? by the way: as a general note: english isnt my native so i may not understand some of your words here and there in general.

 

[xianghua]

Because no one has ever seen a car or a watch which was not man made.

again: its also true for genomes.

 

[Speedwell]

again: its also true for genomes.

How many man-made genomes are there?