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the self replicating watch argument

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xianghua

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-_- no, because flagella are not motors. Any resemblance some people might see between a flagella and a motor like in a car is extremely superficial and neglects accounting for the extremely different chemistry of the two.

why not consider the flagellum as a motor? after all, even scientists call it a motor.
 
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Skreeper

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incorrect since the flagellum is clearly not the result of human design.

Clearly? I don't think you understand my point.

Just because some things are designed does not mean everything is. But this is not the first time you have been told this so I don't think you'll get it this time either.
 
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doubtingmerle

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Clearly? I don't think you understand my point.

Just because some things are designed does not mean everything is. But this is not the first time you have been told this so I don't think you'll get it this time either.
Why do I get this feeling that we have explained this all to Xinhua before?
 
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doubtingmerle

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since an indian in any way he want this is a logical er ror.
Since a creator could make a motor any way he wants, yours is a logical error.
 
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Bungle_Bear

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again incorrect since the flagellum is made from organic components your first part in your claim is incorrect.
Great. You recognise the error in this statement. Now go look at your statement. Do you recognise the exact same error or are you just in denial?
 
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SkyWriting

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There are countless refutations of the Watchmaker argument but I like this one in particular:

c84b760b45a994aef554353940603a49.jpg


A beautiful snowflake. People have looked at this and marvelled at its symmetry. How can a water molecule in one arm know what is happening at the other side of the snowflake? What kind of long range information exchange is coordinating the freezing molecules to create such order? Again, it MUST have outside help, all part of a plan.

Our ignorance about complex natural processes led us to the conclusion that they must have been designed. But now we know that simply isn't true. The people in the past who though it was designed can be given a pass, but those people today who still think that, when the information is so readily available, cannot be excused for such blatant wilful ignorance.

We KNOW full well how amazing complexity and order can arise from simple local interactions (and no, sigh, the 2nd law of thermodynamics does not forbid it). It is not a mystery any more, it is a well-known fact. Paley didn't know that, but now we do.

But the snowflake is a flakey design and not a system.
It fails to show any complexity as it can be simulated by a short handful of rules.
In computer language it's "If this, then that"

Once it freezes into this pattern, then the temperature can radiate away and entropy increases.
The snowflake is a frozen very simple set of rules. No complexity or ability to adapt to changes at all.
The snowflake fails the complexity test. It's a pattern repeated.
That's like saying a zipper is complex.
 
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Skreeper

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But the snowflake is a flakey design and not a system.
It fails to show any complexity as it can be simulated by a short handful of rules.
In computer language it's "If this, then that"

Once it freezes into this pattern, then the temperature can radiate away and entropy increases.
The snowflake is a frozen very simple set of rules. No complexity or ability to adapt to changes at all.

wew you grabbed an old one there.

The simple point I was trying to make is just because something appears to be complex does not automatically mean it was designed.
 
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PsychoSarah

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why not consider the flagellum as a motor? after all, even scientists call it a motor.
-_- as an analogy. I've also heard scientists extensively compare neuron signals to flushing a toilet, but that doesn't make the actual processes all that similar. It's just that it helps people to learn if you make comparisons with familiar things.
 
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Jjmcubbin

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why not consider the flagellum as a motor? after all, even scientists call it a motor.
Well scientists call Bryophytes as amphibians of the plant kingdom as well. Now, don't you go about saying mosses and frogs are the same.
 
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pitabread

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how exactly? if all motors are the product of design then a flagellum need a designer too. so where is the logical error here?

Three things:

1) Assuming the flagellum is a product of design and then concluding that it is a product of design is another form of logical error. Namely a circular argument (i.e. assuming that which you are trying to prove).

2) The reason comparing an electric motor and flagellum is a false equivalence fallacy is because the origin of the electric motor has absolutely nothing to do with the origin of the flagellum. They are completely different types of objects and completely independent. It's no different than claiming my neighbor's car is red because my own car is red. The color of my neighbor's car has nothing to do with the color of my car. You can see the logical error in the latter argument, so I'm really not sure how you can't see the error in the former.

3) You seem entirely too hung up on the word "motor". Just because some scientists refer to the flagellum as a "motor" doesn't mean it is the product of artificial design. Words often get used in different contexts and can take on different meanings. That's one of the quirks of the English language.

unless you can prove that a motor (flagellum) can evolve naturally. in this case it will be indeed a logical error.

Once again, there is no need whatsoever to prove the origin of the flagellum. The origin of the flagellum has nothing to do with the logical error.
 
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doubtingmerle

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