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the self replicating watch argument

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dad

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Not liking the consequences of your own philosophical beliefs doesn't change those consequences. You've already admitted to believing that the nature of our reality is inherently deceptive based on all your "alternate past" silliness.
False.

My reality includes God's word. That is my record of the past. It was not alternate. It was simply the way it was. Your same state past godless models are alternate reality fabrications.
It's your own philosophy, you might as well just own it. Changing your own argument makes you look inconsistent.
No need to change the reality that the future will be different and that the past was too. The deception only comes from man insisting that the temporary present nature is the be all end all harbinger of all reality.

Remember when you said this:



You might want to take that advice right about now. ;)
God knows the past. He wrote about it for us. I can stick to what is known. You can't, cause you do not know what nature is what....then you accuse others of being deceived!
 
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pitabread

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My reality includes God's word. That is my record of the past. It was not alternate. It was simply the way it was. Your same state past godless models are alternate reality fabrications.

Whatever helps you sleep at night. ;)
 
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PsychoSarah

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sure. so a protein from the same family may be close to another protein among this family. but what make you think that all functional proteins are near each other?
-_- they aren't, but functional genes which were derived from accidental copies of the same gene being added to the genome and subsequently acquiring mutations over time generally are most often in close proximity, because when DNA replication makes the error of replicating a gene sequence multiple times when it should have only done it once, those extra copies are almost always very close to the original one.

That is, if genes X, Y, and Z were all originally excess copies of gene A, they'll most likely be physically near gene A. They won't necessarily be near gene B, which is an unrelated gene. Plus, errors that result in excess noncoding regions can make related genes physically drift farther apart over time.



sure. he talk a small protein about 150 aa long. if we will take a larger protein we will get even more big number.
Yes, you deviated into referencing a different source entirely. Are you not going to finish addressing your 2008 source that claims that all functional regions, just due to time passage, have come into existence at some point within the genomes of life on this planet?


i talking about a system that can move our hands to grab something. this is a complex structure that has many sub-parts. think about a robotic hand. you cant just add a single part and make it move.
No, but I can add parts which retain that the structure has SOME function (that doesn't even have to be directly related to movement) and that by the end that function will be that of a hand. Plus, the structures from which hands/limbs are derived (fins) weren't immobile, so the capacity for movement predates those structures.

Furthermore, small numbers of mutations can result in single cells having the capacity for motion. Consider bacterial super colonies; within these colonies, the behavior of the bacteria depends in part on their position within the colony. Thus, while every bacterium has the capacity to move, only those in specific positions do so, resulting in coordinated movement. These types of systems become more complex and specialized over time, and at their simplest they can remain functional.
 
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doubtingmerle

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Y'know, I never get tired about the amazing fantasy fiction creationists come up with. Probably why I still hang out here. ^_^
Right. Are you reading this stuff? People were making metal bracing sufficient to stabilize a 450 foot long wooden boat out on the ocean at a point in time that would date to 70 million years ago! Sadly, a tsunami wiped out the metal factory that was even more advanced than modern factories. I guess we just have to take his word for it. [Eyeroll]
 
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doubtingmerle

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Why would we expect to find a world that was undisturbed? Since the flood, the continents moved, there was massive shoving, uplift, mountain building, volcanic activity, etc.
Ah, a global flood occurred 4500 years ago, but all the evidence was wiped out by a series of catastrophes.

Ok, I will bite. Why don't we see evidence for all those catastrophes?
 
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dad

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Ah, a global flood occurred 4500 years ago, but all the evidence was wiped out by a series of catastrophes.

Ok, I will bite. Why don't we see evidence for all those catastrophes?
Mountain building, uplift, continental movements, etc. The only issue is when they happened.
 
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dad

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Right. Are you reading this stuff? People were making metal bracing sufficient to stabilize a 450 foot long wooden boat out on the ocean at a point in time that would date to 70 million years ago! Sadly, a tsunami wiped out the metal factory that was even more advanced than modern factories. I guess we just have to take his word for it. [Eyeroll]


Gen 4:22 Zillah gave birth to Tubal-Cain, who worked at the forge making bronze and iron tools. Tubal-Cain's sister was Naamah.

This was something like about 1500 years before the flood.

The flood was probably around the KT layer, which you date 70,000,000 years or so. Don't blame me for how silly your dates are.
 
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doubtingmerle

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Mountain building, uplift, continental movements, etc. The only issue is when they happened.
If you are going to move the continents in a thousand years, there are huge problems. Rocks do not move fast. With enough pressure mountains can move over millions of years, but to shift continents large distances and lift mountains in a few hundred years, forget it.

And even if you had shifted the continents and lifted the mountains, there should be a layer of flood deposits over the continents, with the large dense rocks at the bottom and the light dust filling in at the top. We do not find this.
 
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doubtingmerle

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Gen 4:22 Zillah gave birth to Tubal-Cain, who worked at the forge making bronze and iron tools. Tubal-Cain's sister was Naamah.

This was something like about 1500 years before the flood.

The flood was probably around the KT layer, which you date 70,000,000 years or so. Don't blame me for how silly your dates are.
If people were making things out of bronze and iron at about the time of the KT layer, why do we find none of that down there at that layer?

And how is it that isochron dating consistently confirms the KT bourndary at about 65 million years ago if it actually was about 4500 years ago?
 
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doubtingmerle

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You are welcome to your religion. I would think you had a duty to people to make it crystal clear that your ideas of science and origins are religion.
That would be making a false statement. I heard that was against your religious code.

Since we base our findings on science, I prefer to tell people it is based on science.
 
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doubtingmerle

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Can they look miles under the earth in some cases where subduction may have happened, or area got ploughed under mountains, etc etc? Was there any massive tsunamis in the area that may have smashed buildings to rubble? Try to get over the idea that the flod was some sort of lake flooding a village or something. It was an elaborately planned operation involving things like water being transported from across the universe.
The flood wouldn't have caused massive subduction or mountains to move. If that had happened in a short time period, it would have caused a massive heating of the earth's surface.

Even if some of this had happened to hide some of the flood debris, one would expect that there would be a clear layer of flood deposits over most of the earth. We do not find this.
 
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dad

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If you are going to move the continents in a thousand years, there are huge problems. Rocks do not move fast. With enough pressure mountains can move over millions of years, but to shift continents large distances and lift mountains in a few hundred years, forget it.
In this nature, that has some validity. Too bad the time when the movement happened was in the former nature eh?
And even if you had shifted the continents and lifted the mountains, there should be a layer of flood deposits over the continents, with the large dense rocks at the bottom and the light dust filling in at the top. We do not find this.

What did you think the iridium in the KT layer was from?
 
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dad

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If people were making things out of bronze and iron at about the time of the KT layer, why do we find none of that down there at that layer?

Let's face it, have you really looked? Name a site where you looked in a KT layer for remnants of metals?

Also, there was a lot of things that could have happened to iron and metals. Things like rust...

"The rusting of iron is an electrochemical process that begins with the transfer of electrons from iron to oxygen.[5] The iron is the reducing agent (gives up electrons) while the oxygen is the oxidising agent (gains electrons). The rate of corrosion is affected by water and accelerated by electrolytes, as illustrated by the effects of road salt on the corrosion of automobiles. The key reaction is the reduction of oxygen:"

Rust - Wikipedia

Other factors such as volcanic activity affected things also.


"global CO2 levels were likely higher than 800 ppm (and possibly as high as 2,000 ppm) thanks to cataclysmic volcanic eruptions. Now new research published in Science July 23 shows how ancestors of today's nannoplankton fared in those acidic oceans of long ago.

It was a time of "severe global warming," paleobiologist Elisabetta Erba of the University of Milan and her colleagues wrote, after studying the carbon isotopes embedded in deep seabed cores drilled in the Pacific Ocean and locations in the ancient Tethys Ocean, which existed during the Mesozoic era. The records reveal that acidification proved a big problem for nannoplankton. "During the Aptian episode, marine calcifiers experienced a major crisis due to increasing CO2-induced acidification," Erba says.

Ancient Ocean Acidification Intimates Long Recovery from Climate Change

Looking at the average lifespan of iron in the ground, it is not many thousands of years.

"The average lifespan of cast iron drain/sewer pipe is 50 to 65 years. It is easily recognized by the thickened female “hub” at each pipe segment connection. Rust eventually eats through cast iron, primarily from the inside out, as shown in the photo below. Because corrosion is accelerated by moisture, pipe with light effluent flow and installed in a dry environment can survive 20 to 30 years longer. Cast iron began to be replaced by plastic PVC and ABS plastic pipe in the mid 1970s, and has not been used for new construction since the 1980s."

What is the average life expectancy of cast iron pipe?


God knows how to recycle and dispose of waste!


And how is it that isochron dating consistently confirms the KT bourndary at about 65 million years ago if it actually was about 4500 years ago?
Simple..that is radioactive decay based. You think there was radioactive decay at the time of the KT layer? Any proof? Or do you just assume that it golly gee just must have been this nature?
 
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dad

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That would be making a false statement. I heard that was against your religious code.

Since we base our findings on science, I prefer to tell people it is based on science.
Science of origins is a religion. A belief based system, Really. True statement.
 
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dad

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The flood wouldn't have caused massive subduction or mountains to move.

I never said the flood caused it. In fact I suspect it was about 106 years after the flood when the nature change happened.
If that had happened in a short time period, it would have caused a massive heating of the earth's surface.
In the former nature no great heat was produced from rock moving. You keep trying to apply our rules to the former nature.
Even if some of this had happened to hide some of the flood debris, one would expect that there would be a clear layer of flood deposits over most of the earth. We do not find this.

No. God is efficient in His operations, and not a litter bug. Look at the manna in the desert for example. No leftovers.
 
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omega2xx

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Good analogy but IMO. since matter, energy and life can't creat itself, oure universeis the best evidence of God.





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Difference between Prokaryotic flagella and Eukaryotic flagella ~ Biology Exams 4 U[/QUOTE]
 
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xianghua

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First of all, I have no idea what trucks you are looking at but trucks where I live do not have "stairs". (Is it this maybe another language barrier issue?). If you're talking about foot steps found on long-haul trucks, know that most trucks don't actually have steps nor are foot steps unique to trucks. I have an SUV that has a footstep for example and it looks more like a car than a truck.

It's also possible to retrofit steps on any vehicle which is the usually the case when vehicles are used to transport disabled individuals.

So in essence all you've done is disproven your point. That nested hierarchies don't apply to non-living or non-evolved things.

Second of all, what you've presented is even a data set. A data set is a fully compiled list of all the originating data on which the phylogenetic tree is constructed.

You don't have appear to have a data set and you consequently don't have a phylogenetic tree. You're just being silly.

take a look at a random images of truck and you will see that most of them do have footstep:

truck - Google Search

so its not true. remember that we talking about general situation and not about the exceptional.

so there is nested hierarchy in cars.
 
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xianghua

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So you do not believe all that speciation could have happened since the flood

im not sure about that. if we assume that all those species already exist in the beginning then we dont need to explain how they formed in about 4500 years.
 
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xianghua

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So when you point out that vehicles with large cargo capacities (trucks) tend to be designed for large cargo capacity (truck bed, large wheels, step to get up to the cab over the wheels) you are stating little more than a tautology.

you actually do the same when you clasify fishes, mammales, reptiles ect.
 
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