The science of words.

[Tzaousios]

Merchant ships traveled the globe until the barbarians conquered Rome, and the dark ages began, and the fallen Romans and their descendants forgot the western continents and the great trading done east and west, until the fall of Rome.

Where do you find this account of late Roman and early medieval history? Overseas trading and the use of merchant vessels most definitely did not end after the fall of Rome in the fifth century. Also, the early middle ages were not "dark ages," and Romans did not forget their geography or how to engage in commerce.

 

[Aeneas]

You know, it's not fair that I can't link to the entire linguistics section of every university library in the country.

Kind of like how whenever I get someone rambling how "macroevolution hasn't been observed" and I want to link a few thousand empirical studies?

 

[Aeneas]

http://www.christianforums.com/users/290635/
Merchant ships traveled the globe until the barbarians conquered Rome, and the dark ages began, and the fallen Romans and their descendants forgot the western continents and the great trading done east and west, until the fall of Rome.

The fall of Rome and the surrender of Romulus Augustulus to Odacer did not end sea trade worldwide. Sorry.

 

[LaSpino3]

Yeshuasavdme, you wrote, "The Gospel went around the world =globe, in the first century"

Phil replies, "Sorry, it means the area of the Roman Empire. Grab a map of the area of the Roman Empire, it is quite large.

Now the gospel in the 1st century did not go to the Artic, North America, South America, Japan, China, Russia, Austraila, New zealand, etc. etc.

So what I wrote is correct concerning the 1st century Greek language, and how, and what the writers of the Bible meant. Yes we can expand on the word "world" today, but back in the 1st century when the Scriptures were written, it meant the area of the Roman Empire.

Phil LaSpino

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

LaSpino3,
The Gospel went around the world =globe, in the first century, just as it has continued to go around the world in every generation born in this Church age and shall continue to go around the globe til this age ends, because it only takes one generation for a family to be cut off from the Truth by rebel parents -even today; so the Gospel keeps circling the globe, as it did in the first century.
Merchant ships traveled the globe until the barbarians conquered Rome, and the dark ages began, and the fallen Romans and their descendants forgot the western continents and the great trading done east and west, until the fall of Rome.

Also not true... The Vikings were the first to traverse the Atlantic in the person of Leif Ericson c. 1000, and the Portuguese were the first to traverse the Pacific in the person of Ferdinand Magellan c. 1520. There is absolutely no evidence of prior transoceanic voyages, unless you count the Bering straight migration which led to the population of the Americas.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Kind of like how whenever I get someone rambling how "macroevolution hasn't been observed" and I want to link a few thousand empirical studies?

Hahahaha, brilliant.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Where do you find this account of late Roman and early medieval history? Overseas trading and the use of merchant vessels most definitely did not end after the fall of Rome in the fifth century. Also, the early middle ages were not "dark ages," and Romans did not forget their geography or how to engage in commerce.

I like history, and reading the many and various accounts of ancient records, bits here and bits there, plus reading the Word of God as the foundation for all truth, then one does see that the invasion of Rome by the Barbarians in the 5th century stopped the merchant ships from coming to the western continents for trade.
Saga America by Barry Fell, has lots of information in it taken from ancient records showing that there was a flow of sea traffic up to the time of the invasion by the Barbarians, and still, after that, from Africa and Asia up to the 7th century, at least, but it all but stopped in the fifth century, from the Roman Empire. The burning of libraries by all the conquerors then and afterwards, caused information to be lost; and eventually, the western continents were all but forgot in what had been the Roman empire.
The Greeks once tried to stop emmigration to the western continents because so many of the young men were leaving they feared losing them all. I read that info in an ancient record once, from some library somewhere, online, and cannot remember where it was, but it fit with what I was reading in Saga America, about sea travel to the western continents B.C. and up to the fifth century.
Tis a shame that one of the first things invading conquerors do is to burn the libraries of the so called civilized societies, and dark ages begin, again.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Also not true... The Vikings were the first to traverse the Atlantic in the person of Leif Ericson c. 1000, and the Portuguese were the first to traverse the Pacific in the person of Ferdinand Magellan c. 1520. There is absolutely no evidence of prior transoceanic voyages, unless you count the Bering straight migration which led to the population of the Americas.

Sorry, but it is well documented in Saga America and in many ancient records, including the Word of God. Nebuchadnezzar was the king of the kings of the entire globe, wherever man, beast, or fowl dwelt, Nebuchadnezzar ruled the kings who ruled them.
Now, Barry Fell, the author of Saga America, was not a Bible believing Christian, so even he thought Babylonian artifacts discovered in South and Central America must have come much later than Nebuchadnezzar, and must have just been copies of the things Babylon had and worshiped, but that is not what the Word of God states, in Daniel 2.
For more info, after reading and believing the Word of God in Daniel 2, and Genesis 11, then get a copy of Saga America from the Library and begin studies, from there, and then advance to other records, on what actually has been found and what is there that shows much intercontinental travel down through the ages.

Dan 2:36
This [is] the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
Dan 2:37 Thou, O king, [art] a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
Dan 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou [art] this head of gold.


The Olmecs of Mexico were declining in glory in the 6th century BC, already, when Nebuchadnezzar ruled the kings that ruled the Olmecs, as Daniel 2 states.

Grain from Egypt was carried in trade across the seas, and Cocaine was one of the things they traded for. Cocaine has been found in Egyptian mummies.

Isaiah 23:
1 The burden against Tyre.
Wail, you ships of Tarshish!
For it is laid waste,
So that there is no house, no harbor;
From the land of Cyprus[a] it is revealed to them.
2 Be still, you inhabitants of the coastland,
You merchants of Sidon,
Whom those who cross the sea have filled.[b]
3 And on great waters the grain of Shihor,
The harvest of the River,[c]is her revenue;
And she is a marketplace for the nations.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Yeshuasavdme, you wrote, "The Gospel went around the world =globe, in the first century"

Phil replies, "Sorry, it means the area of the Roman Empire. Grab a map of the area of the Roman Empire, it is quite large.

Now the gospel in the 1st century did not go to the Artic, North America, South America, Japan, China, Russia, Austraila, New zealand, etc. etc.

So what I wrote is correct concerning the 1st century Greek language, and how, and what the writers of the Bible meant. Yes we can expand on the word "world" today, but back in the 1st century when the Scriptures were written, it meant the area of the Roman Empire.

Phil LaSpino

"under heaven" is the entire globe.

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;


The Hebrew word tebel means globe, and is translated world in the OT. The "bl" root etymons mean to swell.

The entire globe was settled by mankind, scattering out from Babel and beginning when the tower fell, which fell when Abraham was only 49 years old [as the Historical record, Jasher, states]. They built great cities all over the globe, and rose in glory and fell into darkness; and even their great kings names were forgot. Today we have great ruins worldwide that show us man has indeed risen, declined, and devolved, in continuous cycles.

 

[Tzaousios]

I like history, and reading the many and various accounts of ancient records, bits here and bits there, plus reading the Word of God as the foundation for all truth, then one does see that the invasion of Rome by the Barbarians in the 5th century stopped the merchant ships from coming to the western continents for trade.

I am glad that you like history, so do I, but that does not mean that this statement about trade is any more correct. In fact, as I said, it is decidedly incorrect.

Invasion by "barbarians" had been going on long before Rome was sacked by Alaric in 410 or the deposition of Romulus Augustulus near the end of the century. All during this time trade carried on in the Mediterranean from port cities on the coasts of the Italian peninsula, North Africa, Constantinople, and Palestine. They were not stopped.

Saga America by Barry Fell, has lots of information in it taken from ancient records showing that there was a flow of sea traffic up to the time of the invasion by the Barbarians, and still, after that, from Africa and Asia up to the 7th century, at least, but it all but stopped in the fifth century, from the Roman Empire.

I have never heard of Barry Fell or the work. Nevertheless, I doubt he was privy to information that I have not come across concerning the period, erroneous conclusions not withstanding. It sounds like he was taken in by the Pirenne Thesis on Mediterranean trade, which is grossly exaggerated and rendered obsolete by recent scholarship.

The burning of libraries by all the conquerors then and afterwards, caused information to be lost; and eventually, the western continents were all but forgot in what had been the Roman empire.

Indeed, much information was and has been lost due to the destruction of sieges and conquests. However, it was not so bad as to cause a "Dark Age," nor did medieval peoples forget the Roman Empire. For example, Roman law and governmental customs lived on through the Franks. Latin and Greek works were copied in monastic scriptoria through out all periods of the Middle Ages. The Roman Empire itself lived on after the fifth century in the Byzantine Empire.

The Greeks once tried to stop emmigration to the western continents because so many of the young men were leaving they feared losing them all.

Is this a reference to the exodus of Byzantine scholars before Constantinople fell to the Ottomans in 1453?

If so, yes, the Palaiologan emperors tried to stall the "braindrain," but it was to no avail. There were too many lucrative professorships and academy chairs to be had in the Italian city-states. Also, the scholars themselves feared for their lives and the safety of the manuscripts they held in their possession.

Tis a shame that one of the first things invading conquerors do is to burn the libraries of the so called civilized societies, and dark ages begin, again.

Again, what "dark ages?"

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I have never heard of Barry Fell or the work. Nevertheless, I doubt he was privy to information that I have not come across concerning the period, erroneous conclusions not withstanding. It sounds like he was taken in by the Pirenne Thesis on Mediterranean trade, which is grossly exaggerated and rendered obsolete by recent scholarship.

In Praise of Barry Fell

 

[Tzaousios]

In Praise of Barry Fell

Okay, but what about the rest of my post #30, which deals with the historical assertions that you have made?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Where do you find this account of late Roman and early medieval history? Overseas trading and the use of merchant vessels most definitely did not end after the fall of Rome in the fifth century. Also, the early middle ages were not "dark ages," and Romans did not forget their geography or how to engage in commerce.

The trade to the western continents did end in that time frame, from the main centers the sea merchants went out from.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Is this a reference to the exodus of Byzantine scholars before Constantinople fell to the Ottomans in 1453?

No, it was before Rome ruled -I'll try to find the source again, and it will be a bit of detective work.

 

[LaSpino3]

Part 2.

Another class of Synecdoche may be referring to the PLURAL number, which is sometimes put for the SINGULAR.

In the following, only ONE of these things, or persons mentioned is to be understood.

1. Gen.8:4, "Upon the mountains of Ararat." This term "mountains," is referring to the top of the mountainous range.
2. Amos 6:10, "By the sides (side) of the house."
3. Jonah 1:5, "Jonah was gone down into the sides (side) of the ship."
4. Matt.21:7, "And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set Him thereon," compared with Zech.9:9, "Thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
5. Mark 1:2, "As it is written in the prophets." Prophets refer to Malachi.
7. John 6:45, "It is written in the prophets," referring to Isaiah.
8. Acts 13:40-41, "Beware therefore, let that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; Behold, -- I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you." Referring to Habakkuk.

Where CHILDREN, is put for CHILD,

1. Gen.21:7, "Sarah should have given children (one child) suck?"
2. Gen.46:7, "His sons, and his sons' sons with him, his daughters, and his sons' daughters." Jacob had but one daughter, ver.15. and one grand-daughter, ver.17.
3. So also the "sons" of Dan, ver.23, Dan having but one son.
4. Also the "cities" of Gilead where Jephtare is said to have been buried, is mentioned in Judges 12:7. Jephthah was buried in but one city in that region.
5. Our Saviour speaks of Himself in the plural number, John 3:2, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, WE speak that WE do know, and testify that WE have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

When sometimes the PART is put for the WHOLE.

1. In Gen.1:5-8-13-19-23-31, where the evening and the morning, being the principal parts of the day, are put for the entire day.
2. When the SOUL is put for the WHOLE MAN, as in Acts 27:37, "We were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls ."
3. Gen.12:5, "The souls that they had gotten in Haran."
4. Gen.17:14, Exod.12:19, "That soul shall be cut off."
5. Lev.4:2, "If a soul shall sin."
6. Acts 2:41, "there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

When the SINGULAR number is put for the PLURAL. This usually takes place when the Scriptures speak of the multitude collectively. In

1. Gen.3:8, Tree in the Hebrew is put for trees.
2. Gen.49:6, "In their anger they slew a man," meaning they slew many men.
3. Ex.14:17, "I (God) will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host." "Host" meaning the whole multitude of his chariots which are numbered (600) in verse 7.
4. Ex.15:1-21, "the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea." This is put collectively for the horses and horsemen who were in the Egyptian army.
5. Ex.23:28, "I will -- drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite from before thee." This speaks collectively of the whole of their people.
6. The following verses speak of the oxen, strokes, turtles, cranes, swallows, etc. collectively as a whole.

A. Isa.1:3, "The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib,"
B. Jer.8:7, "The stork in heaven -- the turtle and the crane and the swallow."
C. Joel 1:4, "The palmerworm -- the locust, -- cancerworm, -- caterpillar eaten."
d. Rev.21:21, "The street of the city," meaning streets of the city."

Phil LaSpino

 

[yeshuasavedme]

4. Matt.21:7, "And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set Him thereon,"

they set Him on their clothes, not on both beasts.


5. Mark 1:2, "As it is written in the prophets." Prophets refer to Malachi.
7. John 6:45, "It is written in the prophets," referring to Isaiah.
8. Acts 13:40-41, "Beware therefore, let that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; Behold, -- I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you." Referring to Habakkuk.
Prophets, plural, is correct.

http://www.torah.org/learning/basics/primer/torah/bible.html
In their simplest form, the twenty-four books of the Jewish Bible - the Tanach ... earliest stage, through the giving of the Law at Mount Sinai, and until the end of the first commonwealth. ... of Tanach, divided into three main categories: the Chumash, the Prophets and the Writings.



Where CHILDREN, is put for CHILD,

1. Gen.21:7, "Sarah should have given children (one child) suck?"
Just the English translators problem. ben -means son and sons and Adam- means man and mankind, in the Hebrew.

2. Gen.46:7, "His sons, and his sons' sons with him, his daughters, and his sons' daughters." Jacob had but one daughter, ver.15. and one grand-daughter, ver.17.

daughters-in-laws are daughters, in the Word, also.

2. Gen.49:6, "In their anger they slew a man," meaning they slew many men.
Translators' problem. "In their anger they killed men"

"We" could go on, but we are tired, and point is made.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Sorry, but it is well documented in Saga America and in many ancient records, including the Word of God. Nebuchadnezzar was the king of the kings of the entire globe, wherever man, beast, or fowl dwelt, Nebuchadnezzar ruled the kings who ruled them.
Now, Barry Fell, the author of Saga America, was not a Bible believing Christian, so even he thought Babylonian artifacts discovered in South and Central America must have come much later than Nebuchadnezzar, and must have just been copies of the things Babylon had and worshiped, but that is not what the Word of God states, in Daniel 2.
For more info, after reading and believing the Word of God in Daniel 2, and Genesis 11, then get a copy of Saga America from the Library and begin studies, from there, and then advance to other records, on what actually has been found and what is there that shows much intercontinental travel down through the ages.

Dan 2:36
This [is] the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
Dan 2:37 Thou, O king, [art] a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
Dan 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou [art] this head of gold.


The Olmecs of Mexico were declining in glory in the 6th century BC, already, when Nebuchadnezzar ruled the kings that ruled the Olmecs, as Daniel 2 states.

Grain from Egypt was carried in trade across the seas, and Cocaine was one of the things they traded for. Cocaine has been found in Egyptian mummies.

Isaiah 23:
1 The burden against Tyre.
Wail, you ships of Tarshish!
For it is laid waste,
So that there is no house, no harbor;
From the land of Cyprus[a] it is revealed to them.
2 Be still, you inhabitants of the coastland,
You merchants of Sidon,
Whom those who cross the sea have filled.[b]
3 And on great waters the grain of Shihor,
The harvest of the River,[c]is her revenue;
And she is a marketplace for the nations.

Do you just believe every fringe theory in every field over-against all mainstream history, linguistics, and science? I mean, really, your positions are beginning to contradict one another.

This isn't a personal attack. Please, this is a personal appeal. If nothing else, I really just hope you know that none of the historical or linguistic ideas you've put forward are even on the map of scholarly debate. Do you... know that?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Do you just believe every fringe theory in every field over-against all mainstream history, linguistics, and science? I mean, really, your positions are beginning to contradict one another.

This isn't a personal attack. Please, this is a personal appeal. If nothing else, I really just hope you know that none of the historical or linguistic ideas you've put forward are even on the map of scholarly debate. Do you... know that?

I believe the Word of God, and from there, I do my research. It has been a hobby.
There are more than enough records existing in this world to prove the Word of God is true.

As I wrote, the world/tebel is a globe, and men scattered over the globe, beginning at the fall of the tower of Babel.
Great civilizations have come and gone, since then, and we find their ruins which rebuke the false teachings of men who claim that man has evolved.
Man has devolved, since Babel's fall, which was God's intention so as to keep man from achieving whatever he imagined; for his imaginations are always evil, from an evil heart.

Dan 2:37 Thou, O king, [art] a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. Dan 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou [art] this head of gold.
The Olmec civilization of Mexico was in decline when Nebuchadnezzar ruled their kings.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Isaiah 23:
1 The burden against Tyre.
Wail, you ships of Tarshish!
For it is laid waste,
So that there is no house, no harbor;
From the land of Cyprus it is revealed to them.
2 Be still, you inhabitants of the coastland,
You merchants of Sidon,
Whom those who cross the sea have filled.
3 And on great waters the grain of Shihor,
The harvest of the River,[c]is her revenue;
And she is a marketplace for the nations.



Great merchant ships crossed the ocean carrying great cargo for trade to great ports in South America, which ports have been destroyed by great calamities. In "Mystery From Forgotten Worlds" you can see pictures of their fantastic ports fallen to ruin and buried in the sea.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I believe the Word of God, and from there, I do my research. It has been a hobby.
There are more than enough records existing in this world to prove the Word of God is true.

As I wrote, the world/tebel is a globe, and men scattered over the globe, beginning at the fall of the tower of Babel.
Great civilizations have come and gone, since then, and we find their ruins which rebuke the false teachings of men who claim that man has evolved.
Man has devolved, since Babel's fall, which was God's intention so as to keep man from achieving whatever he imagined; for his imaginations are always evil, from an evil heart.

Dan 2:37 Thou, O king, [art] a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. Dan 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou [art] this head of gold.
The Olmec civilization of Mexico was in decline when Nebuchadnezzar ruled their kings.

Isaiah 23:
1 The burden against Tyre.
Wail, you ships of Tarshish!
For it is laid waste,
So that there is no house, no harbor;
From the land of Cyprus it is revealed to them.
2 Be still, you inhabitants of the coastland,
You merchants of Sidon,
Whom those who cross the sea have filled.
3 And on great waters the grain of Shihor,
The harvest of the River,[c]is her revenue;
And she is a marketplace for the nations.



Great merchant ships crossed the ocean carrying great cargo for trade to great ports in South America, which ports have been destroyed by great calamities. In "Mystery From Forgotten Worlds" you can see pictures of their fantastic ports fallen to ruin and buried in the sea.

So your reading of the Bible allows no room for hyperbole or historical context? I mean, the great empires of the ancient world pretty much controlled all of the world that they knew about. Would it have made any sense to inform them that there was more to the world that they knew about when their control of the known world was the point?

Also, "the sea" in Isaiah 23 is obviously the Mediterranean Sea, just as "the river" in the Bible is almost always the Euphrates River.