The science of creationism: where is it?

[Split Rock]

Classification can be developed by using complicate criteria. Paleontologist used bone because it is the only thing available. If someone care to make classification scheme according to living species only, I believe the system could be very different. It will make perfect sense, and will also be practical. Zoologists should try to do that. Unfortunately they are basically controlled by what the paleontologists have developed. This is an example on how bad the education could go by having only one dominant theory.

To a zoologist, tie a croc to a bird, rather than to a lizard is absurd.

Completely wrong. Classification is not restricted to bones, because classification is not based on fossils. It is based on living species, and then applied retroactively to fossil species. That is why there is a tendency to place extinct species in living taxa.

 

[Hespera]

split sez....Completely wrong. Classification is not restricted to bones, because classification is not based on fossils. It is based on living species, and then applied retroactively to fossil species. That is why there is a tendency to place extinct species in living taxa.QUOTE/////////

hespera sez...

i have been around college people pretty much all my life. They tend to be an eccentric bunch, very individualistic. thin fat lazy energetic young old male female black asian white....

One thing they do have in common tho is they are interested in learning things. Taht is what being intellectual is pretty much all about.

Told something they didnt know in their field or another, they will say something along the lines of coo; / interesting / i didnt know that / where can i find out more / etc. the flip side of course is the ability to see it when they are wrong about something, and not just stick to it.

Now lets watch our professor with the highest possible level of education and see waht he does with this info you gave him.

Im guessing he will try to come up with a one liner about the last sentence there about basing classification of extinct taxa on the modern ones.

 

[BananaSlug]

Classification can be developed by using complicate criteria.

Correct. Traditionally we used morphology to place species in different taxa. Cladistics became a great tool, though now it is used secondarily to molecular biology and genomics. We used to place aardvarks, pangolins, anteaters, armadillos, and sloths in the same group (Edenta). Now we've used cladistics and molecular biology to find that anteaters, armadillos, and sloths belong in Xenartha (a very old placental group). Aardvarks are in the order Tubulidentata and are actually related to tenrecs, sirenians, hyraxes and elephants. Pangolins are in the order Pholidota and are related to carnivores.

Paleontologist used bone because it is the only thing available.

Yes and using fossils can show a great variety of relatedness among extinct and living groups.

If someone care to make classification scheme according to living species only, I believe the system could be very different. It will make perfect sense, and will also be practical.

Well how would we classify extinct species? Using fossils is a great way to show evolution!

Zoologists should try to do that. Unfortunately they are basically controlled by what the paleontologists have developed. This is an example on how bad the education could go by having only one dominant theory.

Nope, it has always been to compare the fossils of extinct species to that of living species. Paleontology and zoology go hand in hand. Palentology includes paleobotany, paleozoology, and other biological sciences as well as geology.

To a zoologist, tie a croc to a bird, rather than to a lizard is absurd.

Nope.

 

[juvenissun]

Completely wrong. Classification is not restricted to bones, because classification is not based on fossils. It is based on living species, and then applied retroactively to fossil species. That is why there is a tendency to place extinct species in living taxa.

If so, please tell me why is croc more related to bird, rather than to lizard. Notice that genetic argument does not apply in this case.

 

[juvenissun]

That was part of the explanation from my previous post. I provided the links to the papers. I hate that some sites make you pay for the paper but if you can find the email address of one of the researchers they'll be more than happy to send a copy to you!

Warm-Blooded Isochore Structure in Nile Crocodile and Turtle​

Sandrine Hughes,* Dominique Zelus,† and Dominique Mouchiroud*

Abstract

​

The genomes of warm-blooded vertebrates are characterized by a strong heterogeneity in base composition, with
GC-rich and GC-poor isochores. The GC content of sequences, especially in third codon positions, is highly correlated
with that of the isochore they are embedded in. In amphibian and fish genomes, GC-rich isochores are
nearly absent. Thus, it has been proposed that the GC increase in a part of mammalian and avian genomes represents
an adaptation to homeothermy. To test this selective hypothesis, we sequenced marker protein genes in two coldblooded​

vertebrates, the Nile crocodile

​

​

​

​

Crocodylus niloticus (10 genes) and the red-eared slider Trachemys scripta​

elegans (6 genes). The analysis of base composition in third codon position of this original data set shows that the

Nile crocodile and the turtle also exhibit GC-rich isochores, which rules out the homeothermy hypothesis. Instead,

we propose that the GC increase results from a mutational bias that took place earlier than the adaptation to
homeothermy in birds and before the turtle/crocodile divergence. Surprisingly, the isochore structure appears very
similar between the red-eared slider and the Nile crocodile than between the chicken and the Nile crocodile. This
point questions the phylogenetic position of turtles as a basal lineage of extant reptiles. We also observed a regular
molecular clock in the Archosauria, which enables us, by using a more extended data set, to confirm Kumar and​

Hedges’s dating of the bird-crocodile split.​

Discussion​

As expected, phylogenetic analysis of the 10 presently​

sequenced genes from the Nile crocodile strongly ​

supports the Archosauria, which groups birds and crocodilians

in a sister group with bootstrap values higher

than 85%, except for vdr (59%) and pk (71%). As a
whole, these data definitively rule out the ‘‘Haemothermia’’
hypothesis, which groups birds and mammals in
a sister group (Hedges, Moberg, and Maxon 1990).
For the divergence time between birds and crocodilians,
a recent work has proposed a mean value of 222
6 40 Myr (Kumar and Hedges 1998), in agreement with
the 240-Myr value suggested by fossil analyses (Benton
1990). The new divergence time (215 Myr) that we estimated
on 10 concatenated nuclear coding genes (i.e.,
2.5 more genes than in previous studies) is in accordance
with Kumar’s findings. Analysis of the avian/
crocodilian split, performed on the complete mitochondrial
genome of Alligator mississippiensis, gives a divergence
time of 254 Myr (Janke and Arnason 1997),​

close to our estimate for the nuclear genome.
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/16/11/1521.pdf​

β-Keratins in crocodiles reveal amino acid homology with avian keratins
Changjiang Ye1, Xiaobing Wu1, Peng Yan1 and George Amato2​

Abstract
The DNA sequences encoding β-keratin have been obtained from Marsh Mugger (Crocodylus palustris) and Orinoco Crocodiles (Crocodylus intermedius). Through the deduced amino acid sequence, these proteins are rich in glycine, proline and serine. The central region of the proteins are composed of two beta-folded regions and show a high degree of identity with β-keratins of aves and squamates. This central part is thought to be the site of polymerization to build the framework of β-keratin filaments. It is believed that the β-keratins in reptiles and birds share a common ancestry. Near the C-terminal, these β-keratins contain a peptide rich in glycine-X and glycine-X-X, and the distinctive feature of the region is some 12-amino acid repeats, which are similar to the 13-amino acid repeats in chick scale keratin but absent from avian feather keratin. From our phylogenetic analysis, the β-keratins in crocodile have a closer relationship with avian keratins than the other keratins in reptiles. ​

So here again we have two separate studies that still show the genetic relatedness of crocodiles and birds. ​

Again, why would God give crocodiles and birds such a close relationship if evolution is false?

Two studies, looked at two different genome (?), on different animals. How would these two studies support any single issue?

Is there a part of DNA which is common between croc and lizard, but is not common between croc and bird?

 

[Split Rock]

If so, please tell me why is croc more related to bird, rather than to lizard. Notice that genetic argument does not apply in this case.

Whatever are you talking about? Post #304 shows that genetically, birds are closer to crocs and alligators than to skinks and iguanas.

 

[Amoeba]

Consider the following taken from the opening paragraph of the article in Wikipedia explaining "Creation science."

"Creation science or scientific creationism is the movement within creationism which attempts to provide support for the religious Genesis account of creation, and disprove accepted scientific facts, theories and scientific paradigms on the history of the Earth, cosmology and biological evolution."
​

So I would think that in order to "provide support for the religious Genesis account of creation, and disprove accepted scientific facts, theories and scientific paradigms on the history of the Earth, cosmology and biological evolution" that one would have to marshal scientific evidence to make any kind of a case. Now there are scientists who are creationists. In fact, several creation web sites like to tout the credentials of their scientifically trained members; however, I have yet to find any peer reviewed work by any scientist, creationist or otherwise, whose findings support creationism to the detriment of evolution; to say nothing of any such scientific work that's been specifically aimed at doing so.

So I again ask: where is all this science that is suppose to give credence to the "science" by which these creationist like to identify themselves? As far as I can see this use of "science" is no more meaningful than had they called their enterprise, "Lollipop creationism." which just might be a more accurate label.

This is like asking a someone who believes the earth is flat to prove it scientifically. It's not gonna happen...

 

[Washington]

This is like asking a someone who believes the earth is flat to prove it scientifically. It's not gonna happen...

You're absolutely right. Ya can't squeeze blood from a turnip.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

You're absolutely right. Ya can't squeeze blood from a turnip.

You can if its one of those genetically engineered plasma turnips... after all, they get insulin from E. coli...

 

[AV1611VET]

This is like asking a someone who believes the earth is flat to prove it scientifically. It's not gonna happen...

It's not?

Suppose he places a camera on a tripod and rotates it 360 degrees and submits the readout as evidence?

 

[juvenissun]

Whatever are you talking about? Post #304 shows that genetically, birds are closer to crocs and alligators than to skinks and iguanas.

I said the genetic argument does not apply according to your argument. You also changed the nature of the topic. We are looking at the croc, not at the bird. You are running away from the debate. Zoology does not use genetic information to classify animals.

 

[Hespera]

Zoology does not use genetic information to classify animals.

Google "use of genetics in taxonomy"

Scholarly articles for use of genetics in taxonomy

Parallel genetic algorithm taxonomy - Nowostawski - Cited by 74
… of isozyme analysis in fungal taxonomy and genetics - Micales - Cited by 113
Genetic transfer and bacterial taxonomy. - Jones - Cited by 76

Search Results

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Searches related to: use of genetics in taxonomyescherichia coli taxonomymicrobial taxonomy

 

[BananaSlug]

Two studies, looked at two different genome (?), on different animals. How would these two studies support any single issue?

There are many other studies out there that support the relationship of birds and crocodylians.

A bacterial artificial chromosome library for the Australian
saltwater crocodile (​

​

​

​

Crocodylus porosus) and its utilization in gene
isolation and genome characterization​

Xueyan Shan1, David A Ray2, John A Bunge3 and Daniel G Peterson*1,4

Abstract​

Background: ​

​

​

Crocodilians (Order Crocodylia) are an ancient vertebrate group of tremendous ecological,
social, and evolutionary importance. They are the only extant reptilian members of Archosauria, a
monophyletic group that also includes birds, dinosaurs, and pterosaurs. Consequently, crocodilian genomes
represent a gateway through which the molecular evolution of avian lineages can be explored. To facilitate
comparative genomics within Crocodylia and between crocodilians and other archosaurs, we have
constructed a bacterial artificial chromosome (BAC) library for the Australian saltwater crocodile, Crocodylus
porosus. This is the first BAC library for a crocodile and only the second BAC resource for a crocodilian.​

Results: ​

​

​

The C. porosus BAC library consists of 101,760 individually archived clones stored in 384-well
microtiter plates. NotI digestion of random clones indicates an average insert size of 102 kb. Based on a
genome size estimate of 2778 Mb, the library affords 3.7 fold (3.7×) coverage of the C. porosus genome. To
investigate the utility of the library in studying sequence distribution, probes derived from CR1a and CR1b,
two crocodilian CR1-like retrotransposon subfamilies, were hybridized to C. porosus macroarrays. The results
indicate that there are a minimum of 20,000 CR1a/b elements in C. porosus and that their distribution
throughout the genome is decidedly non-random. To demonstrate the utility of the library in gene isolation,
we probed the C. porosus macroarrays with an overgo designed from a C-mos (oocyte maturation factor) partial
cDNA. A BAC containing C-mos was identified and the C-mos locus was sequenced. Nucleotide and amino acid
sequence alignment of the C. porosus C-mos coding sequence with avian and reptilian C-mos orthologs reveals
greater sequence similarity between C. porosus and birds (specifically chicken and zebra finch) than between C.
porosus and squamates (green anole).​

Conclusion: ​

​

We have demonstrated the utility of the Crocodylus porosus BAC library as a tool in genomics
research. The BAC library should expedite complete genome sequencing of C. porosus and facilitate detailed
analysis of genome evolution within Crocodylia and between crocodilians and diverse amniote lineages​

including birds, mammals, and other non-avian reptiles.
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2164-10-S2-S9.pdf


I have an account at biomedcentral if you want me to provide links to more papers. So... why would God make birds and crocodiles so closely related if evolution wasn't true? Or are you still going to fiddle around the question?

Is there a part of DNA which is common between croc and lizard, but is not common between croc and bird?

Crocodiles and birds have a more recent common ancestor than archosaurs and lepidosaurs (tuataras, lizards, and snakes). Any DNA that crocodiles and lizards share is also shared by birds.

Zoology does use genetics to support phylogeny. It is the greatest tool they have!

 

[Hespera]

Originally Posted by juvenissun

Zoology does not use genetic information to classify animals.
​

​

Zoology does use genetics to support phylogeny. It is the greatest tool they have!

The honest and honourable thing to do when a person is shown to be wrong like this is to acknowledge it.

Stand by to see what happens next.

 

[juvenissun]

Google "use of genetics in taxonomy"

Scholarly articles for use of genetics in taxonomy

Parallel genetic algorithm taxonomy - Nowostawski - Cited by 74
… of isozyme analysis in fungal taxonomy and genetics - Micales - Cited by 113
Genetic transfer and bacterial taxonomy. - Jones - Cited by 76

Search Results

1. Role of Genomic Typing in Taxonomy, Evolutionary Genetics, and ...
   
   However, researchers in various disciplines tend to use different ... concepts used in microbial taxonomy, evolutionary genetics, and epidemiology. ...
   cmr.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/14/3/547 - Similar
   by A van Belkum - 2001 - Cited by 122 - Related articles - All 14 versions
2. Genetic Codes - NCBI
   
   Apr 7, 2008 ... Central to this effort is careful checking on the taxonomy of each record and ... the genetic code tables shown here use T instead of U. ...
   NCBI HomePageTaxonomy/Utils/wprintgc.cgi - Cached - Similar
3. Intellisophic Genetics Taxonomy - Taxonomy Warehouse - Vocabulary ...
   
   Description: The Genetics Taxonomy covers all aspects of traditional ... Biotechnology, with special emphasis on lab techniques in use in many US high ...
   www.[B]taxonomy[/B]warehouse.com/vocabdetails_include.asp?... - Cached - Similar
4. PLoS Genetics: Exploring Microbial Diversity and Taxonomy Using ...
   
   Published in the November 2008 Issue of PLoS Genetics ..... We compared the use of GAST to assign taxonomy with the use of the top BLAST match (Table 2). ...
   www.plosgenetics.org/article/info.../journal.pgen.1000255 - Cached - Similar
   by SM Huse - 2008 - Cited by 14 - Related articles - All 7 versions
5. Venomdoc Forums :: View Forum - Evolution, Genetics & Taxonomy
   
   Post new topic · Venomdoc Forums Forum Index -> Evolution, Genetics & Taxonomy · Mark all topics read. Topics, Replies, Author, Views, Last Post ...
   Venomdoc Forums ::... - Cached - Similar
6. Biochemical genetics and taxonomy in Plumatella emarginata and P ...
   
   caused mainly bythe use of varietal names (for example, see Rogick, 1935). Many such names ..... Taxonomy, interspecific variation and genetic dif- ...
   doi.wiley.com/10.1111/j.1365-2427.1980.tb01208.x - Similar
7. BioOne Online Journals - Primate Genetics — Is Taxonomy a Trivial ...
   
   Primate Genetics — Is Taxonomy a Trivial Pursuit? ..... and Wienberg continue to use the name stramineus for those west of the Rio Trombetas. ...
   An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie - Similar
   by AB Rylands - 2007
8. ON A WING: THE GENETICS AND TAXONOMY OF VACCINIUM SPECIES FROM A ...
   
   genetics and taxonomic status of Vaccinium species. ..... than those who may attempt to make use of it in the identification of the material, yet it is ...
   Acta Horticulturae - Similar
   by N Vorsa - 1996 - Cited by 6 - Related articles
9. Trends in Genetics - DNA barcoding: how it complements taxonomy ...
   
   DNA taxonomy and barcoding use nucleotide sequence data to achieve ... how it complements taxonomy, molecular phylogenetics and population genetics ...
   Cell - Page Not Foundgenetics/.../S0168-9525(07)00036-4 - Cached - Similar
   by D Rubinoff - 2006 - Cited by 29 - Related articles - All 8 versions
10. Taxonomy of wheat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    
    The genetic approach to wheat taxonomy (see below)takes the genome ... Anyone wishing to use a botanical name for wheat is best advised to follow an ...
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxonomy_of_wheat - Cached - Similar

Searches related to: use of genetics in taxonomyescherichia coli taxonomymicrobial taxonomy

Can't help on this one: This demonstrates one of the incurable (a.k.a. normal) problem of undergraduate, or even some graduate students:

Instead of search: use of genetics on taxonomy on this question (many hits), one should search the use of taxonomy on genetics (may be no hit).

 

[juvenissun]

There are many other studies out there that support the relationship of birds and crocodylians.

A bacterial artificial chromosome library for the Australian
saltwater crocodile (​

​

​

​

Crocodylus porosus) and its utilization in gene
isolation and genome characterization​

Xueyan Shan1, David A Ray2, John A Bunge3 and Daniel G Peterson*1,4

Abstract​

Background: ​

​

​

Crocodilians (Order Crocodylia) are an ancient vertebrate group of tremendous ecological,
social, and evolutionary importance. They are the only extant reptilian members of Archosauria, a
monophyletic group that also includes birds, dinosaurs, and pterosaurs. Consequently, crocodilian genomes
represent a gateway through which the molecular evolution of avian lineages can be explored. To facilitate
comparative genomics within Crocodylia and between crocodilians and other archosaurs, we have
constructed a bacterial artificial chromosome (BAC) library for the Australian saltwater crocodile, Crocodylus
porosus. This is the first BAC library for a crocodile and only the second BAC resource for a crocodilian.​

Results: ​

​

​

The C. porosus BAC library consists of 101,760 individually archived clones stored in 384-well
microtiter plates. NotI digestion of random clones indicates an average insert size of 102 kb. Based on a
genome size estimate of 2778 Mb, the library affords 3.7 fold (3.7×) coverage of the C. porosus genome. To
investigate the utility of the library in studying sequence distribution, probes derived from CR1a and CR1b,
two crocodilian CR1-like retrotransposon subfamilies, were hybridized to C. porosus macroarrays. The results
indicate that there are a minimum of 20,000 CR1a/b elements in C. porosus and that their distribution
throughout the genome is decidedly non-random. To demonstrate the utility of the library in gene isolation,
we probed the C. porosus macroarrays with an overgo designed from a C-mos (oocyte maturation factor) partial
cDNA. A BAC containing C-mos was identified and the C-mos locus was sequenced. Nucleotide and amino acid
sequence alignment of the C. porosus C-mos coding sequence with avian and reptilian C-mos orthologs reveals
greater sequence similarity between C. porosus and birds (specifically chicken and zebra finch) than between C.
porosus and squamates (green anole).​

Conclusion: ​

​

We have demonstrated the utility of the Crocodylus porosus BAC library as a tool in genomics
research. The BAC library should expedite complete genome sequencing of C. porosus and facilitate detailed
analysis of genome evolution within Crocodylia and between crocodilians and diverse amniote lineages​

including birds, mammals, and other non-avian reptiles.
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2164-10-S2-S9.pdf


I have an account at biomedcentral if you want me to provide links to more papers. So... why would God make birds and crocodiles so closely related if evolution wasn't true? Or are you still going to fiddle around the question?



Crocodiles and birds have a more recent common ancestor than archosaurs and lepidosaurs (tuataras, lizards, and snakes). Any DNA that crocodiles and lizards share is also shared by birds.

Zoology does use genetics to support phylogeny. It is the greatest tool they have!

I don't think you said this based on solid understanding. Because I smell big problem on it. I guess you can see the problem too.

Without much knowledge, I highly suspect that there are some DNA shared between croc and lizard, but are not shared by bird. Can you positively say this is not true.

 

[Hespera]

Can't help on this one: This demonstrates one of the incurable (a.k.a. normal) problem of undergraduate, or even some graduate students:

Instead of search: use of genetics on taxonomy on this question (many hits), one should search the use of taxonomy on genetics (may be no hit).

You are the one who doesnt know that genetics are useful in taxonomy.

Chronic, or incurable?

 

[Split Rock]

I said the genetic argument does not apply according to your argument. You also changed the nature of the topic. We are looking at the croc, not at the bird. You are running away from the debate. Zoology does not use genetic information to classify animals.

The post shows that genetically birds and crocs are more similar to each other than either is to lizards. Is that clear now?

Can't help on this one: This demonstrates one of the incurable (a.k.a. normal) problem of undergraduate, or even some graduate students:

Instead of search: use of genetics on taxonomy on this question (many hits), one should search the use of taxonomy on genetics (may be no hit).

More word games.

I don't think you said this based on solid understanding. Because I smell big problem on it. I guess you can see the problem too.

Without much knowledge, I highly suspect that there are some DNA shared between croc and lizard, but are not shared by bird. Can you positively say this is not true.

Yes this is not true.

 

[BananaSlug]

I don't think you said this based on solid understanding. Because I smell big problem on it. I guess you can see the problem too.

I do not see a problem. Birds and crocodiles have a more recent common ancestor than archosaurs and lepidosaurs. Any genes that lepidosaurs and archosaurs share come from their diapsid ancestor.

BTW, turtles are now classified as diapsids closely allied with the Archosauria.

Without much knowledge, I highly suspect that there are some DNA shared between croc and lizard, but are not shared by bird. Can you positively say this is not true.

It is basically not true unless there has been a gene deletion. Large scale gene deletions are usually fatal. Smaller scale deletions can cause certain diseases. Luckily we know enough about it to identify if it has happened.

Unless of circumstances such as the above, I will positively say that any genes that lizards and crocodiles share will also be shared by birds.

Again, why would God make crocodiles more related to birds than lizards if evolution wasn't true? How many more questions will I have to answer before you answer mine? I feel I have given plenty of evidence in favor of the avian-crocodylian connection yet I am continually asked to jump through hoops. How much more do you need? Every paper (which has studied a different part of the genome) has continually shown that crocodiles are more closely related to birds than other reptiles.

If evolution is not true and the Bible is right, why would God, who is not a deceiver or a liar, make crocodiles more closely related to birds than to lizards? Paleontology shows it, Zoology shows it, and even GENETIC ANALYSIS shows it. That is THREE totally different fields of study that show the SAME CONCLUSION. So why did God do it?

 

[Naraoia]

Can't help on this one: This demonstrates one of the incurable (a.k.a. normal) problem of undergraduate, or even some graduate students:

Instead of search: use of genetics on taxonomy on this question (many hits), one should search the use of taxonomy on genetics (may be no hit).

Why would you use a search term that doesn't match what you're looking for? (But what do I know, I'm just a normal undergraduate

)

If you can't handle many hits, here's just one:

Ten species in one: DNA barcoding reveals cryptic species in the neotropical skipper butterfly Astraptes fulgerator

1. Paul D. N. Hebert*,†,
2. Erin H. Penton*,
3. John M. Burns‡,
4. Daniel H. Janzen§, and
5. Winnie Hallwachs§

Abstract

Astraptes fulgerator, first described in 1775, is a common and widely distributed neotropical skipper butterfly (Lepidoptera: Hesperiidae). We combine 25 years of natural history observations in northwestern Costa Rica with morphological study and DNA barcoding of museum specimens to show that A. fulgerator is a complex of at least 10 species in this region. Largely sympatric, these taxa have mostly different caterpillar food plants, mostly distinctive caterpillars, and somewhat different ecosystem preferences but only subtly differing adults with no genitalic divergence. Our results add to the evidence that cryptic species are prevalent in tropical regions, a critical issue in efforts to document global species richness. They also illustrate the value of DNA barcoding, especially when coupled with traditional taxonomic tools, in disclosing hidden diversity.