The Schumer Shutdown

[7thKeeper]

Im not so sure. Why would the costs go.down? What would happen in the medical community in order to drive cost down? Would anything suffer if it happened?

I feel there would need to be some major changes in the medical system to make costs drop.

... Seriously? In every single instant where some type of government healthcare system like what was talked about was implemented, it has lower costs and better overall health for the population, but you just aren't sure? Really?

 

[Larniavc]

If a person is ruggedly individualistic, why would he be afraid of anyone?

He may not be afraid but he lacks the power to leverage his economic freedom in an environment that specifically benefits those with more economic power.

Strutting around in undeserved hubris, vilifying the worse off while scrambling for the leftovers of the high a mighty while convincing oneself that one day, ONE DAY! you too will be a billionaire serves only one side of the monied divide.

It is only by overcoming this bizarre individualism Americans have been fed for decades and being a community rather than a collective of individuals at each others throats that America will prosper.

As it stands now there are a few at the top and many many working paycheque to paycheque. Is that what you want?

 

[Larniavc]

only for that to weaken my employer to the point where he can no longer afford to keep the union around, let alone me.

Why do you have a responsibility to support your boss? If he can’t run a business without being able to pay a fair wage he should go out of business and someone else should step up. Otherwise you are creating dependency on the workers and stifling innovation.

 

[NxNW]

The "huge organization" is the place where "little guy" applied for a job, and was granted it while understanding what "at will" employment is.

Which ignores the question.

Now you're engaging in "whatabouts".

Not at all.

 

[Aldebaran]

Management always couches every demand as "unreasonable."

But even when workers do have unions behind them, employers have the means to protect themselves from demands they view as "unreasonable." It's called negotiation. So long as an employer accepts that their obligation, as employers, is to treat their workers fairly and compensate them fairly for their work, then the two parties can sit down at the bargaining table and work out a deal that, while not perfect for either party, gets both what they truly need.

Without a union, there is no bargaining power for workers. If one individual makes a demand, reasonable or not, that individual can be replaced. There is no equal footing to bargain. When one party has all the power, that allows more room for exploitation and mistreatment.

As we've seen.

Employers don't hire workers out of the goodness of their hearts: they need them just as much as an employee needs the job, and it's time that employers recognize that.

-- A2SG, too many don't.....

They already recognize that. That's why they hire people.

 

[Aldebaran]

He may not be afraid but he lacks the power to leverage his economic freedom in an environment that specifically benefits those with more economic power.

Strutting around in undeserved hubris, vilifying the worse off while scrambling for the leftovers of the high a mighty while convincing oneself that one day, ONE DAY! you too will be a billionaire serves only one side of the monied divide.

It is only by overcoming this bizarre individualism Americans have been fed for decades and being a community rather than a collective of individuals at each others throats that America will prosper.

As it stands now there are a few at the top and many many working paycheque to paycheque. Is that what you want?

I'm sorry you see America in such a dim light. Most people who want a job also have one.

 

[Aldebaran]

Why do you have a responsibility to support your boss? If he can’t run a business without being able to pay a fair wage he should go out of business and someone else should step up. Otherwise you are creating dependency on the workers and stifling innovation.

I used to work as a security guard at a paper factory where the employees of the factory were all union workers. They got high wages, but they also sat around and hardly did any work. They used their union to intimidate others and their employer. Eventually, the owners of the factory ended up selling out to a different company because they couldn't afford to do business the way things were. The union workers remained, and the next company that owned the factory didn't do so well either and ended up the same way.
I've also been on the side of being an employee who try to get actions done through unionizing. We ended up losing our jobs as a result of asking too much. It was only a $0.75 raise which the company said they couldn't afford at the time, which ended up being proven soon afterwards.

 

[BCP1928]

I'm sorry you see America in such a dim light. Most people who want a job also have one.

That's just the usual hubris from the Right. Most on the Left who you think "hate America" only hate the America you want it to be.

 

[Aldebaran]

That's just the usual hubris from the Right. Most on the Left who you think "hate America" only hate the America you want it to be.

You mean the America where people have freedom, want to be safe, want to be not be attacked by illegal aliens, not want their children kidnapped and used by human traffickers, and not want their children to be indoctrinated by poisonous ideas such as being born in the "wrong body"?
I'll take the Conservative vision for America anytime.

 

[BCP1928]

You mean the America where people have freedom, want to be safe, want to be not be attacked by illegal aliens, not want their children kidnapped and used by human traffickers, and not want their children to be indoctrinated by poisonous ideas such as being born in the "wrong body"?
I'll take the Conservative vision for America anytime.

Yeah, that one. A crypto-Christian oligarchy. But that's just your vision. Other Americans may have a different vision.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Im not so sure. Why would the costs go.down? What would happen in the medical community in order to drive cost down? Would anything suffer if it happened?

I feel there would need to be some major changes in the medical system to make costs drop.

Fundamentally, the larger the pool of insured people, the more you can spread out costs. Additionally, a larger base of customers brings more negotiating power when it comes to drug prices and contracts with hospitals, and if hospitals don't have to worry (as much, or potentially anymore) about treating uninsured (or underinsured) patients who can't pay their bills, then they don't need to charge as much for services. That's a big part of why medical care is so expensive in the US - hospitals have to structure their billing to account for the (quite high) percentage of bills that will go to collections and/or remain unpaid.

I don't disagree that moving to a single-payer system might necessitate major changes to our medical care system, but clearly those issues can be solved, given the number of countries that have implemented some form of national healthcare. We certainly shouldn't rush into it, but just because it might be difficult or it might take a while to figure out does not mean that it's not worth pursuing.

 

[BCP1928]

Fundamentally, the larger the pool of insured people, the more you can spread out costs. Additionally, a larger base of customers brings more negotiating power when it comes to drug prices and contracts with hospitals, and if hospitals don't have to worry (as much, or potentially anymore) about treating uninsured (or underinsured) patients who can't pay their bills, then they don't need to charge as much for services. That's a big part of why medical care is so expensive in the US - hospitals have to structure their billing to account for the (quite high) percentage of bills that will go to collections and/or remain unpaid.

I don't disagree that moving to a single-payer system might necessitate major changes to our medical care system, but clearly those issues can be solved, given the number of countries that have implemented some form of national healthcare. We certainly shouldn't rush into it, but just because it might be difficult or it might take a while to figure out does not mean that it's not worth pursuing.

I think the real issue is that people will get healthcare who don't "deserve" it.

 

[Pommer]

America simply cannot afford both a military budget approaching $1T/yr and a national Healthcare system.

 

[iluvatar5150]

I used to work as a security guard at a paper factory where the employees of the factory were all union workers. They got high wages, but they also sat around and hardly did any work. They used their union to intimidate others and their employer. Eventually, the owners of the factory ended up selling out to a different company because they couldn't afford to do business the way things were. The union workers remained, and the next company that owned the factory didn't do so well either and ended up the same way.
I've also been on the side of being an employee who try to get actions done through unionizing. We ended up losing our jobs as a result of asking too much. It was only a $0.75 raise which the company said they couldn't afford at the time, which ended up being proven soon afterwards.

Boy, you just bought everything management sold you, didn’t you?

 

[Aldebaran]

Yeah, that one. A crypto-Christian oligarchy. But that's just your vision. Other Americans may have a different vision.

The framers of our Constitution seem to have the same vision as I do, and anyone who voted for Trump.
I'll go with that vision.

 

[Aldebaran]

Boy, you just bought everything management sold you, didn’t you?

As you would gather from reading my post, it was my own experience.

 

[Larniavc]

I'm sorry you see America in such a dim light. Most people who want a job also have one.

Yeah but for many people it’s a low paid job which is not good enough to live on because the business owner is too bad at business to be able to pay a living wage without going bankrupt.

Who would want to support that system? It just encourages poor business practice and subsidises failing businesses.

 

[Larniavc]

I've also been on the side of being an employee who try to get actions done through unionizing.

That’s not the fault of the unions that’s fault of the business owners who put profits over people. Using bullyboy tactics to keep the working man in his place.

And you want to prop that system up? Why are you on the side of the people who sacked you?

 

[Larniavc]

I think the real issue is that people will get healthcare who don't "deserve" it.

That is exactly it. When I was a kid if my sister and I would scream blue murder if we thought the other got something but we didn’t.

Even to the point in getting nothing ourselves if it meant we stopped the other from getting something when we didn’t.

A significant proportion of Americans seem more concerned with stopping other people getting something even if it means they themselves do not benefit from getting something.

The American Dream.

 

[BCP1928]

The framers of our Constitution seem to have the same vision as I do, and anyone who voted for Trump.
I'll go with that vision.

That's the issue, isn't it? That Trump's vision of the Constitution is warped and ugly, and misrepresents the vision of the framers.