The Schumer Shutdown

[BCP1928]

The cost would be enormous, but we're already paying an enormous amount for healthcare. As an example, my health insurance costs about $700/month, and it's not even that good - I have a fairly high deductible. My employer covers most of it as a benefit to me, but that doesn't change the amount being spent.

It's not about the money. The point is, you don't deserve any health care unless you earn it by being employed, and then only what your employer decides to give you.

 

[NxNW]

If they truly felt confident, they wouldn't need to form a "union", which is often simply a mob meant to bully their employer into things that puts them out of business, and the employees out of jobs.

How is the employer not a mob as well? Huge organization against the little guy.

Confidence means being able to stand on your own two feet and take your skills to a different job if you're so confident.

If the employer was confident and competent, they wouldn't need to bust unions.

 

[Aldebaran]

How is the employer not a mob as well? Huge organization against the little guy.

The "huge organization" is the place where "little guy" applied for a job, and was granted it while understanding what "at will" employment is.

If the employer was confident and competent, they wouldn't need to bust unions.

Now you're engaging in "whatabouts".

 

[BCP1928]

If they truly felt confident, they wouldn't need to form a "union", which is often simply a mob meant to bully their employer into things that puts them out of business, and the employees out of jobs.

You'll be OK. The National Guard has shot unionists before. I'm sure they can be made to do it again.

Confidence means being able to stand on your own two feet and take your skills to a different job if you're so confident.

What a load of horse cobble. Confidence means knowing your labor has value, wherever you work.

 

[BCP1928]

The "huge organization" is the place where "little guy" applied for a job, and was granted it while understanding what "at will" employment is.

If there was a free market in labor, the issue wouldn't arise. But a free market, any free market, requires that both the buyer and the seller have about equal market power. A labor market which is dominated by one or a few large employers at the expense of many individual workers is not a free market. That's what unions are for, to even up the market power.

 

[Aldebaran]

What a load of horse cobble. Confidence means knowing your labor has value, wherever you work.

Yes, that's basically what I said. If they know their labor has value, they can have confidence that it'll be valued elsewhere if not where they are now.

 

[Aldebaran]

If there was a free market in labor, the issue wouldn't arise. But a free market, any free market, requires that both the buyer and the seller have about equal market power. A labor market which is dominated by one or a few large employers at the expense of many individual workers is not a free market. That's what unions are for, to even up the market power.

Then when the economy turns in a way that favors the employees and their ability to get whatever unreasonable demands they want, what protects the employer from being driven out of business because their workers want to ambush him with unreasonable demands?

 

[BCP1928]

Yes, that's basically what I said. If they know their labor has value, they can have confidence that it'll be valued elsewhere if not where they are now.

That only works if there is a free market in labor.

 

[Aldebaran]

That only works if there is a free market in labor.

It's always free. People are free to apply for a job, and to leave the job as desired, and the employers are free to hire or not hire, fire or not fire.

 

[rjs330]

And. of course, the working poor are not truly needy--is that it?

I don't think I said that either. I dont think we can make sweeping declarations like that. I mean who is
the working poor? Some, aren't truly needy, some are. So who.are you really talking about? Who are the working poor to you. Be specific.

 

[Larniavc]

Confidence means being able to stand on your own two feet and take your skills to a different job if you're so confident.

Humans are social creatures. We are far stronger together. The American ‘rugged individualism’ is a brilliant invention of the monied class to keep isolated and afraid of each other.

Hence the ‘screw you I got mine’ culture that keeps most people poor and a few with more money than they could spend in a life time.

Is that the society you want? Massive income inequality because the common man cannot protect his own economic interests?

 

[BCP1928]

Then when the economy turns in a way that favors the employees and their ability to get whatever unreasonable demands they want, what protects the employer from being driven out of business because their workers want to ambush him with unreasonable demands?

Who decides whether the demands are unreasonable?

 

[rjs330]

The cost would be enormous, but we're already paying an enormous amount for healthcare. As an example, my health insurance costs about $700/month, and it's not even that good - I have a fairly high deductible. My employer covers most of it as a benefit to me, but that doesn't change the amount being spent.

The question becomes, will healthcare costs actually go down? Right now we certainly spend a lot on Healthcare. Would costs really go down?

Would the current costs be passed on to the government? How would we as tax payers pay for this? How much more in taxes would you pay a month to cover rhe costs?

Lots of questions for me. My costs are are over 900 a month that my employer pays. I pay more to cover my kids. I know its expensive.

With our country so.far in debt as it is, I am.not sure we could sustain something like an enormous cost of healthcare AND I dont know that the American people are ready for the tax system it would take.

 

[rjs330]

You'll be OK. The National Guard has shot unionists before. I'm sure they can be made to do it again.

Let's not get carried away here. No one is suggesting anything of the sort.

What a load of horse cobble. Confidence means knowing your labor has value, wherever you work.

Its not one or the other. There is nuance to the game. If you are confident in your skills you can take them elsewhere if you don't think you are being valued enough. Not every job had the same value and not every employer will be able to afford what you believe you are worth.

I believe what I do is worth far more money than what I am getting paid. I could go somewhere else and get paid more. But there is more to life than just the money. I love where I live and I dont want to leave my family. Not sure I would get hired anywhere else anyway with my age.

I understand that many places don't value their employees as they should. But lets face it, there are plenty of jobs rhat we do where we are easily replaced and when we leave everything goes on as if we were never there. The only value we really brought was ourselves and how we treated our fellow employees and our attitude and how we treated those who we served.

Did we add value to others? That's the only real value we bring in the end.

There are some jobs just about anyone can do really and other they can't. Some are specialty that take certain kinds of skills and people to do them.

I am going to.stop now because I don't really know where I'm going with this.

Yes everyone has value. Not every job is equally valuable and not every employer can afford to pay the same. Thankfully people do have choices.

 

[rjs330]

Who decides whether the demands are unreasonable?

In the end, I think it's kind of a combo, leaning more toward rhe employer. Employers offer a dollar amount and worker decides if its reasonable for the labor. If not, they can go find another job. They are not locked in. And if no one want to work for the employer they only have two choices. Go out of business or raise the offering.

We saw that where I live. Businesses couldn't get workers so they HAD to raise their wages. Competition for workers drove up the wages. It also drove up the cost of goods.

But we also had businesses that went out of business because of it also.

So basically I do think its kind of a combo. With employers making offers and employees accepting or rejecting.

 

[7thKeeper]

The question becomes, will healthcare costs actually go down? Right now we certainly spend a lot on Healthcare. Would costs really go down?

Based on comparison to every single western country with a public healthcare system of some type. Yes. Yes it would.

 

[Aldebaran]

Humans are social creatures. We are far stronger together. The American ‘rugged individualism’ is a brilliant invention of the monied class to keep isolated and afraid of each other.

Hence the ‘screw you I got mine’ culture that keeps most people poor and a few with more money than they could spend in a life time.

Is that the society you want? Massive income inequality because the common man cannot protect his own economic interests?

Not sure where you're getting that from. If a person is ruggedly individualistic, why would he be afraid of anyone? Besides, I'd rather do a job and be judged individually on my job performance rather than having a union telling me what to do for the sake of their collective, only for that to weaken my employer to the point where he can no longer afford to keep the union around, let alone me.

 

[Aldebaran]

Who decides whether the demands are unreasonable?

It's eventually the economy and marketplace that decide. More union demands being met results in higher prices down the line. When folks decide the price is too high, business falls off, businesses close, and the union workers get laid off.