The Scarlet Letter

faroukfarouk

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I normally dislike the beach but this one was nice.
Southern European beaches are usually pretty warm. Even though when I went to Cascais it wasn't particularly hot; and can be windy along the Atlantic there.

European beaches also are a bit less regulated than in the US, in the sense that minimal swimwear is widespread, while in the US there tend to be wardens that try to enforce some basic conformity.
 
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HereIStand

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Finished the introductory/biographical portion of the Scarlet Letter. Once one gets into it, it's good. On the series side, Hawthorne seems to wonder about the eternal destiny of his Puritan forefathers. On the lighter side, he pokes fun at holding government office, and his own dismissal from government employment.
 
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Galatea

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Finished the introductory/biographical portion of the Scarlet Letter. Once one gets into it, it's good. On the series side, Hawthorne seems to wonder about the eternal destiny of his Puritan forefathers. On the lighter side, he pokes fun at holding government office, and his own dismissal from government employment.
The Customs House part is a bit of a slog, but he wanted to write a frame story. I wonder too, if he was explaining to the Victorian reader why he was going to be so hard on the Puritans- so this is his explanation about the story beforehand. I thought about this when I read it this time.

The description of the guys in the Customs House is pretty funny, as much as things change, they stay the same! Government is always inefficient.

I promise, the book DOES get better after the Customs House bit. I was surprised how long it took me to read it, and I sailed through three and a half chapters in the same time.
 
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HereIStand

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The Customs House part is a bit of a slog, but he wanted to write a frame story. I wonder too, if he was explaining to the Victorian reader why he was going to be so hard on the Puritans- so this is his explanation about the story beforehand. I thought about this when I read it this time.

The description of the guys in the Customs House is pretty funny, as much as things change, they stay the same! Government is always inefficient.

I promise, the book DOES get better after the Customs House bit. I was surprised how long it took me to read it, and I sailed through three and a half chapters in the same time.
I've started the main portion of the book. So far, quite readable. One thing that I noticed was Hawthorne's mention of sumptuary laws. I had heard of them, but didn't realize that they were imposed in New England. Maybe that accounts (in part) for the tradition of plain style in New England.
 
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Athanasius7

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I read The Scarlet Letter a few years ago....I don't remember as much as I should like, but I enjoyed it well enough (except I was kind of disappointed in the ending).

Incidentally, here's an interesting article on Nathaniel Hawthorne's daughter.
 
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Galatea

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I've started the main portion of the book. So far, quite readable. One thing that I noticed was Hawthorne's mention of sumptuary laws. I had heard of them, but didn't realize that they were imposed in New England. Maybe that accounts (in part) for the tradition of plain style in New England.
I think too, the Puritans were not like the Quakers. The Quakers wanted everyone to be equal, while the Puritans were into retaining hierarchy, so if you were well off, you could have red and green highly embroidered underwear (what I recently read on a website about the Puritans).

In many respects, the Puritan society was not that different from English society, especially in terms of hierarchy, only the church fathers are at the top instead of the aristocrats.
 
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DeerGlow

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I think too, the Puritans were not like the Quakers. The Quakers wanted everyone to be equal, while the Puritans were into retaining hierarchy, so if you were well off, you could have red and green highly embroidered underwear (what I recently read on a website about the Puritans).

In many respects, the Puritan society was not that different from English society, especially in terms of hierarchy, only the church fathers are at the top instead of the aristocrats.

Isn't that economic? Like at one point only rich people used green paint on walls/ceilings because it was expensive? Or do you mean designated color order like Brave New World?
 
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Galatea

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I read The Scarlet Letter a few years ago....I don't remember as much as I should like, but I enjoyed it well enough (except I was kind of disappointed in the ending).

Incidentally, here's an interesting article on Nathaniel Hawthorne's daughter.
Thanks very much for the article about Rose Hawthorne Lathrop. It was really interesting. It sounds like she embodied the ideals her father wrote about, actually.

I think he would have been extremely proud of her.
 
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Galatea

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Isn't that economic? Like at one point only rich people used green paint on walls/ceilings because it was expensive? Or do you mean designated color order like Brave New World?
It is economic, but also social. Like if you were not of a certain class you would not be allowed to wear certain things so as not to embarrass someone who might mistake you for a gentleman or lady. The sumptuary laws go way back to the Middle Ages. It didn't matter if you had made a lot of money, if you are not a head honcho, you can't wear silver buckles on your shoes, for example. It is kind of like keeping people in their place. Quakers were different, everyone wore the same thing, no matter how rich or poor you were. They were more about equality than the Puritans.
 
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Galatea

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I believe that the first woman to be executed in British North America was a Quaker. She was executed by the Puritans for being a Quaker.
I didn't know that. I read a nonfiction book about the beginnings of Quakerism, it was written by a Quaker- so favorably biased, but I was very impressed by their desire to help prisoners and the ideas of equality. Many of the abolitionists in the US were Quakers. I don't know what their theology is, but their social consciousness is commendable. That is too bad about the woman being executed. I knew Anne Hutchinson and Roger Williams were drummed out of Massachusetts for being an Antinomian and a Baptist. I guess the Puritans were easier on Antinomians and Baptists.
 
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Galatea

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Really enjoying the Scarlet Letter. I'm about three-fourths of the way through. I'm sorry that I'm just now reading it.
Hey, you're way ahead of me. I haven't progressed as quickly. Don't feel bad you didn't read it sooner. Be glad that you are reading it now. I still haven't read some of the classics and am kind of chagrined I spent so much of my reading life on books that are not that great.

I'll have to read more to catch up with you. I'm anxious to see if my feelings about Dimmesdale and Chillingworth changed.
 
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HereIStand

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Finished the Scarlet Letter. Wow, what to make of it. On the plus side, Hawthorne exposes the dangers of revenge in Chillingworth and duplicity in Dimmesdale. He also exposes the cruel sanctimony of the townsfolk (children and ministers included) in their attitudes toward Hester and Pearl.
On the downside though, the conclusion seems to present Dimmesdale and Hester as martyrs for a future age that would "establish the whole relation between man and woman on a surer ground of mutual happiness" unencumbered by the guilt of "continually recurring trials of wounded, wasted, wronged, misplaced, or erring and sinful passion."
 
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Galatea

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Finished the Scarlet Letter. Wow, what to make of it. On the plus side, Hawthorne exposes the dangers of revenge in Chillingworth and duplicity in Dimmesdale. He also exposes the cruel sanctimony of the townsfolk (children and ministers included) in their attitudes toward Hester and Pearl.
On the downside though, the conclusion seems to present Dimmesdale and Hester as martyrs for a future age that would "establish the whole relation between man and woman on a surer ground of mutual happiness" unencumbered by the guilt of "continually recurring trials of wounded, wasted, wronged, misplaced, or erring and sinful passion."
I'm not as far along. I just finished chapter four- and realized I felt the same about Roger's feelings toward Hester as I did in high school. He doesn't blame her at all, he blames himself and the unknown Dimmesdale (I mean, unknown to him). His revenge is toward Dimmesdale and not Hester, which floored me when I was in high school and still impresses me.

I guess I can not totally hate Chillingworth because he has this magnanimity toward Hester, he figures she has enough punishment. There is something about Chillingworth that appeals to me- his explanation of why he wanted to marry Hester, or maybe his logic, I don't know. I just don't see him as a villain. Dimmesdale was always the villain in my mind- his cowardice disgusts me, his willingness to let Hester bear all the burden of their shared sin.

Anyway, I need to read more to see if I have any pity for Dimmesdale. Right now, all my pity is for Hester, Pearl, and Chillingworth.
 
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HereIStand

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I'm not as far along. I just finished chapter four- and realized I felt the same about Roger's feelings toward Hester as I did in high school. He doesn't blame her at all, he blames himself and the unknown Dimmesdale (I mean, unknown to him). His revenge is toward Dimmesdale and not Hester, which floored me when I was in high school and still impresses me.

I guess I can not totally hate Chillingworth because he has this magnanimity toward Hester, he figures she has enough punishment. There is something about Chillingworth that appeals to me- his explanation of why he wanted to marry Hester, or maybe his logic, I don't know. I just don't see him as a villain. Dimmesdale was always the villain in my mind- his cowardice disgusts me, his willingness to let Hester bear all the burden of their shared sin.

Anyway, I need to read more to see if I have any pity for Dimmesdale. Right now, all my pity is for Hester, Pearl, and Chillingworth.
It was cowardly of Dimmesdale not to come forward until the end. Hawthorne does a good job showing the psychological torture a minister (especially of that time) would have in bearing such a secret. I recall from attempting to read (but couldn't finish) Steven King's Under the Dome that he portrays a pastor in mental torment for misdeeds. Like Dimmesdale, he practices self-flagellation as penance.
 
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Galatea

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It was cowardly of Dimmesdale not to come forward until the end. Hawthorne does a good job showing the psychological torture a minister (especially of that time) would have in bearing such a secret. I recall from attempting to read (but couldn't finish) Steven King's Under the Dome that he portrays a pastor in mental torment for misdeeds. Like Dimmesdale, he practices self-flagellation as penance.
Self flagellation is not good enough, in my opinion. He lets Hester bear it all, and even tries to get her to name him on the scaffold because he is too cowardly to do it himself.

Perhaps this is harsh of me, but I admire Chillingworth's strength of character (although perverted by revenge) and dislike Dimmesdale's weakness of character. But, perhaps my opinion of him will change as I reread the rest of the book. I was prepared to keep an open mind about Dimmesdale, but got disgusted by him all over again when he basically pleaded with Hester to out him on the scaffold. He wanted her to be stronger than himself, he was leaning on her strength.

I just wanted to shake him and say "Be a MAN!"
 
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HereIStand

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Self flagellation is not good enough, in my opinion. He lets Hester bear it all, and even tries to get her to name him on the scaffold because he is too cowardly to do it himself.

Perhaps this is harsh of me, but I admire Chillingworth's strength of character (although perverted by revenge) and dislike Dimmesdale's weakness of character. But, perhaps my opinion of him will change as I reread the rest of the book. I was prepared to keep an open mind about Dimmesdale, but got disgusted by him all over again when he basically pleaded with Hester to out him on the scaffold. He wanted her to be stronger than himself, he was leaning on her strength.

I just wanted to shake him and say "Be a MAN!"
That's true. Pitying himself and self-flagellation isn't good enough. He is a beta-male. :)
It is interesting that Hester as the woman is portrayed as the emotionally stronger of the two. I especially liked this part in describing Hester, "She never battled with the public, but submitted uncomplainingly to its worst usage; she made no claim upon it in requital for what she suffered; she did not weigh upon its sympathies." Maybe it's cynical, but that seems like a good philosophy to adopt.
 
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Galatea

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That's true. Pitying himself and self-flagellation isn't good enough. He is a beta-male. :)
It is interesting that Hester as the woman is portrayed as the emotionally stronger of the two. I especially liked this part in describing Hester, "She never battled with the public, but submitted uncomplainingly to its worst usage; she made no claim upon it in requital for what she suffered; she did not weigh upon its sympathies." Maybe it's cynical, but that seems like a good philosophy to adopt.
Lol, I don't generally think in terms of "alpha" and "beta" males. It just seemed he took the easy way out, and perhaps soothed his conscience with his self flagellation. I'm tough on Dimmesdale, I know. Perhaps I expect more from preachers.

Hester DIDN'T rail against her punishment, and took it with grace. I think it is important to remember that she agreed that she deserved her punishment. As readers who are not Puritans, we see it as harsh and undeserved- but Hester is a Puritan. She believes she "earned her A" so to speak. If you believe you deserve punishment, it is not likely you'll rail against it- but take it as your due. I don't think it is cynical. I think she is not murmuring against what she sees as justice for her sin.
 
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